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The I've Seen The Last Jedi Thread (spoilers OBV)


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Guest El Chalupacabra

Re: why does Kylo idolize Vader - because he is CRAY.

 

Seriously, though, other than the confrontation in the hut, we have no idea what happened that led to Ben Solo's fall. We don't know if Ben ever got the letter from Leia. We don't know if Luke got to explain what happened. We don't know if Ben began to think he should live up to Vader and that him saving Luke was a moment of weakness. Considering his actions with killing Han and Snoke, I would say that's a good option.

My working theory is because Kylo Ren is not just another Vader, but that he is literally the inversion of Luke. An anti-Luke if you will.

 

Where Luke is tempted by but resists the dark, Kylo is tempted by but resists the light.

Where Luke's goal was to redeem Vader, Kylo saw this as a mistake (ironically, had Luke failed, Kylo likely woudn't have been born).

Where Luke saved his father, Kylo killed his.

The OT was a hero's journey for Luke, and the ST is a villain's journey for Kylo.

Where Luke founded a new order, Kylo destroyed it. I presume Kylo will found his own dark side order in 9.

 

I could go on, but you get the idea. Unlike Vader who basically was to Luke what Uther Pendragon was to Arthur who had almost as many similarities as differences, Kylo is more like a complete opposite of Luke.

 

If the force creates an equal and opposite power, if one side becomes more powerful than the other, then I think Luke was created to counter Vader and the Emperor, and once they were gone, Kylo was created to counter Luke. Once Luke withdrew from the galaxy, a new counter was created in Rey. As for Snoke, perhaps he exists outside that.

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The movies always trump anything else. Including tv shows.

Seriously, though, other than the confrontation in the hut, we have no idea what happened that led to Ben Solo's fall. We don't know if Ben ever got the letter from Leia. We don't know if Luke got to explain what happened. We don't know if Ben began to think he should live up to Vader and that him saving Luke was a moment of weakness. Considering his actions with killing Han and Snoke, I would say that's a good option.

A coworker of mine read Bloodline and he said Kylo Ren never got Leia's letter. He finds out about Vader being his grandfather through a campaign ad. He is upset about this and leaves. My coworker thought it was at this point he probably went to form the Knights of Ren and joined Snoke. It was a good lead in to TFA. But TLJ contradicts this now.
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The movies always trump anything else. Including tv shows.

Seriously, though, other than the confrontation in the hut, we have no idea what happened that led to Ben Solo's fall. We don't know if Ben ever got the letter from Leia. We don't know if Luke got to explain what happened. We don't know if Ben began to think he should live up to Vader and that him saving Luke was a moment of weakness. Considering his actions with killing Han and Snoke, I would say that's a good option.

A coworker of mine read Bloodline and he said Kylo Ren never got Leia's letter. He finds out about Vader being his grandfather through a campaign ad. He is upset about this and leaves. My coworker thought it was at this point he probably went to form the Knights of Ren and joined Snoke. It was a good lead in to TFA. But TLJ contradicts this now.

 

I don't know what version of Bloodline he read, because Kylo and Luke aren't in the book at all.

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Re: why does Kylo idolize Vader - because he is CRAY.

 

Seriously, though, other than the confrontation in the hut, we have no idea what happened that led to Ben Solo's fall. We don't know if Ben ever got the letter from Leia. We don't know if Luke got to explain what happened. We don't know if Ben began to think he should live up to Vader and that him saving Luke was a moment of weakness. Considering his actions with killing Han and Snoke, I would say that's a good option.

My working theory is because Kylo Ren is not just another Vader, but that he is literally the inversion of Luke. An anti-Luke if you will.

 

Where Luke is tempted by but resists the dark, Kylo is tempted by but resists the light.

Where Luke's goal was to redeem Vader, Kylo saw this as a mistake (ironically, had Luke failed, Kylo likely woudn't have been born).

Where Luke saved his father, Kylo killed his.

The OT was a hero's journey for Luke, and the ST is a villain's journey for Kylo.

Where Luke founded a new order, Kylo destroyed it. I presume Kylo will found his own dark side order in 9.

 

I could go on, but you get the idea. Unlike Vader who basically was to Luke what Uther Pendragon was to Arthur who had almost as many similarities as differences, Kylo is more like a complete opposite of Luke.

 

If the force creates an equal and opposite power, if one side becomes more powerful than the other, then I think Luke was created to counter Vader and the Emperor, and once they were gone, Kylo was created to counter Luke. Once Luke withdrew from the galaxy, a new counter was created in Rey. As for Snoke, perhaps he exists outside that.

While your character themes are valid, I feel like Han and Luke want tell you something about how the Force works. ;-)

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I'm in the middle of reading Bloodline and I see now how the Galaxy got itself into trouble once again and why Leia was so afraid to speak about her true father. The other thing that really grabs me is the reminder that the Rebellion committed their share of mass murder when they destroyed two Death Stars. While that doesn't compare to the Evil of Vader and the Emperor, I can see how that could be used by someone like Snoke. It's a great read by the way. I've always been one who loved the movies and used the books to fill in the politics and backstories. I was disappointed that the original EU was pushed completely aside and have not really got into the new EU. I will now though. I just need a list of where to go from here. I have read the first Aftermath and intend on reading the other two now once I finish Bloodline.

 

Mara Jade where should I go from there? Is there a discussion for the new EU here at Nightly you could point me towards?

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I'm not Mara Jade...BUT....

 

To me the Aftermath trilogy was painful. The first book was very painful. It gets better in the second and third books though.

 

My favrotie EU books have been written by Claudia Gray, who wrote Bloodline. Although the other two are not set after RoTJ.

 

Lost Stars is a story that revolves around the OT but there are two people who basically, to keep from ruining the plot, help you see both sides of the picture, the Alliance and the Empire.

 

Princess Leia, is set before R1 and ANH. I did not like it. I think it has to do with it being a Young Adult novel. It seemed kind of childish so I wish I had noticed it was Young Adult before trying it out.

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Enlighten me. I'd like to know what you mean.

Believe it or not while the quality of the films vary greatly, and while all of us fans can point at inconsistencies or plot holes or questionable characterizations, throughout all of the films the Force is consistently presented as super chill. It likely uses terms like my dude while talking to those with quiet minds. The Force you suggest is either psychotic or epically stupid.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

 

Enlighten me. I'd like to know what you mean.

Believe it or not while the quality of the films vary greatly, and while all of us fans can point at inconsistencies or plot holes or questionable characterizations, throughout all of the films the Force is consistently presented as super chill. It likely uses terms like my dude while talking to those with quite minds. The Force you suggest is either psychotic or epically stupid.

 

Just to clarify, I was genuinely curious, so apologies if I came across otherwise.

 

But to explain my idea, I am taking what was said by Snoke himself about Rey being the counter to Kylo, to what I think is the next logical conclusion. I could be wrong of course, but to me, it makes sense that Luke was the counter to Vader. Perhaps Palpatine was the counter to the entire jedi order, or at least to Yoda. I just haven't quite worked out who Snoke would be the counter to.

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Lol, I love the Aftermath books. They are my favorites of the new canon.

 

Djo, I'll PM you! :) Sadly there's really no EU discussion here anymore.

I decided to take the plunge and get back into the books. I bought the Aftermath Series last night. Gonna join my wife in her book challenge this year. She read 60 last year and bumped it up to 80 for this year. I'm starting at a conservative 10 lol.
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The Aftermath series is Different. It's not written in the standard third person past tense of most tie in fiction novels. Wendig has a very distinct style and voice that some people love and others hate. Personally, I like it (although I agree that the second and third books were better). Also people were expecting to read about Luke, Han, and Leia but instead got original characters. (Which is fine with me; Sinjir is my favorite in the new canon.)

 

Anyway, good luck on the challenge and I hope you like them! (If you don't but want recs for other SW books that might be more your speed, I can help!)

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About Kylo worshiping Vadar, idol worship isn't about reality or facts. It's about you. It's about what you want. You have a story you've built up in your head. You dismiss any facts you don't like or don't fit your story. Or you rationalize them. Whatever information was out there about Vadar's last few hours obviously didn't matter to Kylo because he ended up worshiping Vadar. He rationalized it away.

 

 

This is a perfect example. If people wasn't the books to fill in gaps that's great-- I tease, but I'm not out to ruin anyone;s enjoyment of their thing. (Unless their thing is the PT). When I say the books don't matter, I'm referring to this above. My quibble has always been that filmmakers cannot rely on tertiary material to make plot points, or assume people have read them to be informed.

For what it's worth, I thought the Poe and Rey meeting was a bit out of place in the movie itself. It wasn't really necessary as the two were at the same place once before and only emphasized how separated their stories were through two movies. Not sure what's gained by calling attention to that.

 

I've never read the novelization and this is the first time I've heard of the inconsistency so that only makes it more weird.

Exactly. I hadn't noticed that the two hadn't even met each other until they brought it up. But that could just be the fact that I don't like Poe. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate him either. He's just there. Bringing it up made it weird.

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It's weird to complain about clunky dialogue in a Star Wars movie - that's what the franchise was built on - but It does seem we are supposed to be in a new era of slick, competently-made Star Wars movies so it feels extra off to have a "Hi, I'm ---" moment like that.

 

Maybe Lando should have said that as he lowered Luke through the Falcon's hatch.

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I liked it because we keep calling Finn, Poe, and Rey the big three, even before TLJ, and yet Poe and Rey never even shared a scene together before that moment. Felt it was necessary. But Ive also spent more time reading this thread about that scene than I ever did thinking about it

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