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The I've Seen The Last Jedi Thread (spoilers OBV)


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AOTC is literally one of the worst movies ever made, on every conceivable level. Not just bad Star Wars, but just BAD.

 

TLJ does indeed get boring. I remember the exact moment when I started to feel disapointment seep in when I realized— “Oh... this isn’t setting something up... this IS the movie.”

 

But despite it’s plot trouble, logic issues, and pointless movements, it’s still a well-crafted, beautiful looking movie with quality performances and amazing visuals. AOTC has none of those things and is eggregiously awful in its writing and acting.

Not to me. I'd never argue AOTC is a masterpiece, but TLJ has serious issues that are AT LEAST as bad, if not worse. For me, outside the scenes with Luke (and Rey with Luke) and the better, more polished FX, TLJ is at the same level of quality as the PT films. Canto Bight scenes alone are scenes that would be right at home in the PT. Amazingly, I care more about Anakin as a character, than I do for Poe or Finn. I like Rey as a character (my favorite out of the ST's 3 main good guy characters), but if she is supposed to be this trilogy's stand in for a Skywalker, I find that she does not seem to go through the same and interesting type of growth that comes with overcoming adversity Luke and Anakin did. She basically is powered off the charts like a silver age Superman and effectively has beaten Kylo twice, and is an expert pilot, and is a de facto jedi master. Not much else can be done with her, until she faces (and possibly loses initially, thereby growing in the process) to a real challenge. Kylo is interesting, and in all honesty better than Anakin, but I find him far less interesting after TLJ, which demystified and humanized him a little too much. You can't argue that DJ is a well thought out and written, much less likable character. You can't argue the slowest space chase ever is quality writing. You can't argue Holdo, who never shares her grand plan and could have avoided all sorts of drama (and mutiny) for reasons makes any kind of sense. I could go on and on, but the point is TLJ comes off to me as a rough draft of a movie, with all kinds of plot holes I can't reconcile, and cheap shock value twists. As time goes on and I process the movie more and more, these issues bother me more than anything from the PT.

 

Matter of opinion for sure, but you cannot convince me TLJ's quality is superior to AOTC. The things that bug me about AOTC bother me less than what bothers me about TLJ. AOTC does NOT invalidate the deeds of the OT cast. TLJ, on the other hand, practically trashes everything that came before, including the OT, PT, R1, and even TFA.

 

I couldn't disagree more. I don't get the argument that Holdo should have explained herself to Poe. I mean I wasn't in the military but something tells me commanding officers don't go around explaining themselves to their men. I mean I can't see a subordinate questioning his superior officer and that superior officer being like "oh please, let me explain my plan and I really hope you like it and approve of it." That doesn't seem like a good way to establish your leadership. Plus we already know Poe will defy direct orders from a superior officer and just do what he wants anyway, even if does know the plan. He does that just a little earlier in the movie.

 

Your last paragraph is just what's wrong with fandom to me. Oh no my movies aren't a perfectly wrapped present anymore. Wah Wah Wah.

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It is in my view, and relative to me, but I am not claiming that as a universal truth. If you like it, your mileage will vary. I am not saying TLJ's failures are universally bad, because the audience is divided. Some loved the movie. I just happen to be in the camp that do not.

 

 

 

But there is no such thing as art being objectively bad. It can only be subjectively bad.

I'm confused. You said that poor writing is the same as choices you don't like.

 

Your examples of choices, to me, has a direct effect on the quality of the films, and are the same thing as poor or inadequate writing

So is TLJ subjectively bad because you don't like it, or objectively bad because it is poorly written or told as a story? If art can't be objectively bad, then why would anyone need to justify their dislike for something like TLJ? I don't like The Shining, but that doesn't mean it is a poorly-written story, and it surely isn't anything like AOTC.

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Obi-Wan was changed from a great mentor to a side kick.

Yet this character is the one that star wars fans are clamoring for a movie about. Not the one we're getting about an OT character that is beloved. You can't deny that McGregor has done more for the character than Guinness.
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Obi-Wan was changed from a great mentor to a side kick.

Yet this character is the one that star wars fans are clamoring for a movie about. Not the one we're getting about an OT character that is beloved. You can't deny that McGregor has done more for the character than Guinness.

I don’t disagree with that at all. He’s the one gem in pile of turds that is the PT. But he didn’t find Anakin as the OT implied, Qui-Gon did. He wasn’t Yoda’s mentee, he was Qui-Gon’s. He was basically given filler storylines in both AOTC and ROTS.

 

Despite all that, Ewan McGregor was amazing. If anything people want an Obi-Wan movie so they can see him do his thing with a decent script and direction.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

 

 

See, I always thought the transformation was from a “great warrior” and “finest starpilot in the galaxy” aka a hero and veteran on par with Obi-Wan who was some great and noble knight that fell from grace and went evil.

 

Not a petulant man-child with mommy issues...

 

But obviously our mileages vary...

 

I agree in AOTC he was petulant, but it was established that Anakin WAS a great warrior and pilot in ROTS. Evidence being his piloting in the opening scene and stating his power had more than doubled. Unfortunately, I think they COULD have done a better job fleshing that out Anakin being a hero people looked up to, both within the jedi order and the galaxy at large.

 

 

 

 

It is in my view, and relative to me, but I am not claiming that as a universal truth. If you like it, your mileage will vary. I am not saying TLJ's failures are universally bad, because the audience is divided. Some loved the movie. I just happen to be in the camp that do not.

 

 

 

But there is no such thing as art being objectively bad. It can only be subjectively bad.

I'm confused. You said that poor writing is the same as choices you don't like.

 

Your examples of choices, to me, has a direct effect on the quality of the films, and are the same thing as poor or inadequate writing

So is TLJ subjectively bad because you don't like it, or objectively bad because it is poorly written or told as a story? If art can't be objectively bad, then why would anyone need to justify their dislike for something like TLJ? I don't like The Shining, but that doesn't mean it is a poorly-written story, and it surely isn't anything like AOTC.

 

What I am saying is when I saw TLJ for the first time, there were scenes where I asked myself why things were written the way they were. That bothered me so much that they took me out of the movie experience. When that happens, to me, that is bad writing.

 

As to the second part of your question, I would say subjectively bad (I am only speaking for myself) for the reasons I stated above, because it was poorly written in my view. For example, when one asks themselves why the First Order doesn't just hyperspace ahead of the Resistance during the space chase while watching the movie for the first time, and there is no good answer why they didn't (or even one stated at all), THAT indicates bad writing to me.

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TLJ left the ST assymetrical. Episode ix may turn out to be an entirely different beast from the first two. There's no set up except maybe that those little kids at the end may have force powers or something, but overall I feel like there's nothing left to wrap up. That's what I hate the most.

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I have loved all 9 movies. That's it. I found nothing boring about TLJ. Luke/Rey scenes, Kylo/Snoke scenes, The Resistance desperation to stay alive, Leia finally using the force, Rey and Kylo connecting through the force and finding out it was setup by Snoke, Luke force-projecting and seeing Leia, 3PO and confronting Kylo, and finally his death. Also, Rose was cute and funny. Glad that she is still alive. At least it looked like they were caring for her and not dead.

I agree with you on all that and I still hated TLJ. The movie has great elements. On paper, it's a fantastic movie, but there's just so much missing to make it actually great.

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Could this AOTC-TLJ debate be boiled down to rewatchability? Few would argue that a movie like... (I'll probably pick a bad example and start a new argument here)... Batman vs. Superman or Transformers is a BETTER movie than Philadelphia, but while many would agree the latter is "better", they might still enjoy repeat viewings of one of the former more. Isn't that all this is really about?

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Guest El Chalupacabra

Could this AOTC-TLJ debate be boiled down to rewatchability? Few would argue that a movie like... (I'll probably pick a bad example and start a new argument here)... Batman vs. Superman or Transformers is a BETTER movie than Philadelphia, but while many would agree the latter is "better", they might still enjoy repeat viewings of one of the former more. Isn't that all this is really about?

No, because even on THAT we will have debate. I'd rewatch AOTC, as flawed as it is, over TLJ. I am sure Tank and other posters would rather take a punch to the throat than watch AOTC. It's odd, but while I acknowledge the PT is pretty bad in some scenes and I can't bring myself to rewatch TPM, I legit could rewatch AOTC and ROTS time and again. I can rewatch Rogue One and TFA time and again. When it comes to TLJ, I saw it twice. First time I was very mixed, but tried being positive, though a lot bothered me. Second time I liked it a lot better. But now that it has been 4 months, I have zero interest in buying the upcoming TLJ bluray and wouldn't care if I never saw it again. Processing it for 4 months has just made me really dislike TLJ and I feel about the same as Tank feels about the PT.

 

Maybe this says something about watching bad movies and how rewatchable they are, depending on what age you are when you watch them for the first time. I am positive I have some nostalgia for the PT, and it makes me wonder if I saw AOTC for the first time today, if I would feel the same about it as I do about TLJ.

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Maybe you're right about Tank and others but you are arguing against me when I was trying to support your argument: TLJ is a more competently made film, but AOTC, with all its flaws, may be more rewatchable.

 

Note: I have not rewatched AOTC since seeing it theatres. Same with TLJ.

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What I am saying is when I saw TLJ for the first time, there were scenes where I asked myself why things were written the way they were. That bothered me so much that they took me out of the movie experience. When that happens, to me, that is bad writing.

No, that's not bad writing, that's just you being a nitpicky Star Wars fan. That you were taken out of the movie experience by a consideration only a detail-oriented fan would ponder should not be part of evaluating the quality of the film's story-telling. Not every little detail needs to be explained, or even can be explained. That's half the reason the EU exists - to give nitpicky SW fans a place to sort out details that no one else cares about.

 

As to the second part of your question, I would say subjectively bad (I am only speaking for myself) for the reasons I stated above, because it was poorly written in my view. For example, when one asks themselves why the First Order doesn't just hyperspace ahead of the Resistance during the space chase while watching the movie for the first time, and there is no good answer why they didn't (or even one stated at all), THAT indicates bad writing to me.

When it comes to tactics and strategy in SW, or most other science fiction stories, I assume characters are knowledgeable about the matters they are dealing with unless it is made clear that they are not. Why not hyperspace jump in front of the Resistance fleet? Apparently it would be either impractical or it is unnecessary. The characters shouldn't need to explain that to anyone around them, any more than Admiral Holdo needed to justify her orders to Poe. Should the First Order admiral, or Admiral Holdo, give a soliloquy to explain the tactical situation?

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On rewatching--

 

I could rewatch ANH, TESB, and R1 over and over forever.

 

I won't rewatch TPM or AOTC, yet every few years I think, "Oh I'll give them a shot, there was some cool stuff..." and within 20 minutes I have to turn them off because they are unbearable.

 

I can rewatch ROTS, ROTJ, and TLJ, but I fast forward through everything that's not a battle, lightsaber duel, and/or a Luke-centered scene.

 

TFA is a strange one in that it used to be rewatchable, but post TLJ it's gone to being a fast forward aided watch. I don't know if it just doesn't hold up, or if TLJ retroactively made me dislike it's flaws more. Probably a bit of both.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

 

What I am saying is when I saw TLJ for the first time, there were scenes where I asked myself why things were written the way they were. That bothered me so much that they took me out of the movie experience. When that happens, to me, that is bad writing.

No, that's not bad writing, that's just you being a nitpicky Star Wars fan. That you were taken out of the movie experience by a consideration only a detail-oriented fan would ponder should not be part of evaluating the quality of the film's story-telling. Not every little detail needs to be explained, or even can be explained. That's half the reason the EU exists - to give nitpicky SW fans a place to sort out details that no one else cares about.

 

As to the second part of your question, I would say subjectively bad (I am only speaking for myself) for the reasons I stated above, because it was poorly written in my view. For example, when one asks themselves why the First Order doesn't just hyperspace ahead of the Resistance during the space chase while watching the movie for the first time, and there is no good answer why they didn't (or even one stated at all), THAT indicates bad writing to me.

When it comes to tactics and strategy in SW, or most other science fiction stories, I assume characters are knowledgeable about the matters they are dealing with unless it is made clear that they are not. Why not hyperspace jump in front of the Resistance fleet? Apparently it would be either impractical or it is unnecessary. The characters shouldn't need to explain that to anyone around them, any more than Admiral Holdo needed to justify her orders to Poe. Should the First Order admiral, or Admiral Holdo, give a soliloquy to explain the tactical situation?

 

You seem to be passing off your subjective opinion as fact here.

 

Look, what I find bad writing, you might actually enjoy and call good. And vice versa. Doesn't make you or me right or wrong. I'm simply stating why I have issues with TLJ. If you don't have those same issues, fine. But it is not nitpicky to question why an obvious tactic isn't tried, or at least explained why they don't just do it. In the example I present for the space chase, they spend the time, energy and effort to state "we are both at max speed and are going to just hang back and fire at the rebels to remind them we are still here and chasing them." Would it have been so terrible to also state "we can't warp ahead of them, because of <fill in the reason here>." OMG, one effing line is just too much explanation!

On rewatching--

 

I could rewatch ANH, TESB, and R1 over and over forever.

 

I won't rewatch TPM or AOTC, yet every few years I think, "Oh I'll give them a shot, there was some cool stuff..." and within 20 minutes I have to turn them off because they are unbearable.

 

I can rewatch ROTS, ROTJ, and TLJ, but I fast forward through everything that's not a battle, lightsaber duel, and/or a Luke-centered scene.

 

TFA is a strange one in that it used to be rewatchable, but post TLJ it's gone to being a fast forward aided watch. I don't know if it just doesn't hold up, or if TLJ retroactively made me dislike it's flaws more. Probably a bit of both.

All this ado, and I find I pretty much agree with everything you said here, though I am more forgiving of AOTC. :)

 

I agree with you on TFA. I like it, but I think being only 2.5 years out, it is still too soon to say if it will stand the test of time. I find when I watch more modern blockbuster movies, like TFA or TLJ for that matter, I actually enjoy them for the most part in the theater. I don't usually walk away pissed of feel like I wasted my time completely. But I do find many modern films don't hold up as well on repeat viewings, and after I have had a while to process them. Hence my opinion of TLJ has fallen over the last few months. TFA seems to be holding up a lot more, though.

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You seem to be passing off your subjective opinion as fact here.

 

Look, what I find bad writing, you might actually enjoy and call good. And vice versa. Doesn't make you or me right or wrong. I'm simply stating why I have issues with TLJ. If you don't have those same issues, fine. But it is not nitpicky to question why an obvious tactic isn't tried, or at least explained why they don't just do it. In the example I present for the space chase, they spend the time, energy and effort to state "we are both at max speed and are going to just hang back and fire at the rebels to remind them we are still here and chasing them." Would it have been so terrible to also state "we can't warp ahead of them, because of <fill in the reason here>." OMG, one effing line is just too much explanation!

 

 

No. If anything, I think you're trying to pass off your subjective opinion as fact in this discussion. I am pointing out that not liking something isn't the same as it being poorly crafted. For instance, you may not like what I'm writing here in this thread, but you can't say that I'm writing it poorly just because you don't agree with me. You don't like TLJ, and that's fine. Why you don't like it is completely subjective. Whether it is poorly made or well made is not subjective.

 

As for explaining certain details, well, I think it's a slippery slope. Explain something like why they're not hyperspace jumping in front of the ships - say it's because the hyperspace engines can't pull off such a high-precision jump - and then the same nitpicker will ask why they can't jump that precisely. Then what? Do we need a discussion on hyperspace navigation principles to justify that explanation?

 

Also, to nitpick a bit (for fun), since the ships' engines were on, they couldn't have been at "max speed", because that makes no sense. They were under constant acceleration. If both fleets were at maximum acceleration, then the problem was which fleet could maintain that condition for the longest time. Larger ships accelerate more slowly, but can sustain their acceleration for longer assuming they have more "fuel". They would have caught the rebels eventually, seeing as that's pretty much what happened except that Holdo went kamikaze on their lead ship....it's an interesting kinematics problem, actually.

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I find when I watch more modern blockbuster movies, like TFA or TLJ for that matter, I actually enjoy them for the most part in the theater. I don't usually walk away pissed of feel like I wasted my time completely. But I do find many modern films don't hold up as well on repeat viewings, and after I have had a while to process them.

Back in 2012 I loved going around telling people the absolute, hands down best movie I've seen this year in theaters was Raiders of the Lost Ark (that was the year Lucas rereleased it in IMAX.) I've seen it hundreds of times, know it word for word, but was still amazed how well it held up to theater viewing. It showed me how well that film was made compared to the big releases of the day (The Dark Knight Rises was the big event movie that year) and how poorly modern films held up to rewatchability.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

Pav, I think you are glossing over the fact I stated from the beginning that my opinion that TLJ was written poorly IS subjective. If I had said that TLJ was poorly written and said that is an objective fact, then I would agree with you. But I never said that, nor have I tried passing any of my views as objective facts, either. When I say I think something was poorly written, I am expressing my opinion that it is poorly written, and that is because in my opinion it could have been handled better.


As for explanations, sure, things can be overdone. When things are overly explained, I agree that it can detract from the story. But one or two lines? No, that is far from excessive.

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Back in my day movies were so good you watchem over and over and they only cost a nickle and the popcorn tasted better and had no fat. One time my grandpappy and me watched Indiana Jones 43 times in a row. Didn't sleep or take bathroom breaks.

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Maybe you're right about Tank and others but you are arguing against me when I was trying to support your argument: TLJ is a more competently made film, but AOTC, with all its flaws, may be more rewatchable.

 

Note: I have not rewatched AOTC since seeing it theatres. Same with TLJ.

 

This isn't a negative or anything but it seems crazy to me that you'd spend as much time here discussing Star Wars but essentially spend no time watching a couple of the movies. That's not to say you spend too much time here or anything, I certainly spend my fair share. Just that statement seems crazy for someone who cares about the movies enough to spend any time here at all.

 

Although in another way I commend that, you watched a movie, you didn't love it. Then instead of watching something you don't love over and over, you just moved on. In a different way that makes total and complete sense.

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It's weird to me, I'm a prequel fan but I always understood the people who didn't like the movies. In fact I agreed with a large percentage of their complaints. I just enjoy the movies despite those problems. With this movie it's the opposite, I disagree with 90% of most complaints. With the PT I'd always say "yeah I get it, the acting is bad in parts, the dialogue is bad throughout, there is too much emphasis on CGI but I still like the movie." With this movie, I just feel like people are missing the boat with it.

 

Having said that, its not perfect and although I love it I will criticize elements of it. I did just a bit earlier in this thread. The thing is though for me, the parts I don't like don't make the movie bad or not rewatchable. The things this movie gets right it gets so right. Parts of it to me are just beyond outstanding. I love some of the sequences, visuals, ideas, themes more than anything in any Star Wars movies since Empire and there are elements of this movie I love just as much as I love Empire and Star Wars.

 

At the same time that is kind of frustrating to me because if just a few sequences were reworked this movie could have been the one that just blew me away start to finish. TFA I enjoy all the way through, its just a really good, fun movie. This movie though the parts I like blow me away in a way TFA doesn't at all. But that is frustrating in the sense that with just a few changes this could have been the Star Wars movie I've dreamed of since they announced the prequels were being made. It falls a bit short of that but still I;d put it third on my list.

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Yeah there are elements that are amazing. Elements. But as a whole...meh.

 

For me personally, the thing that is lacking (still) in the ST is the sense of fantasy. The OT is like King Arthur in space. A fairy tale. Science Fantasy. That sense of wonder, mystery and magic *soul* - try as they might - is just not there with Disney, HOW IRONIC! (there were flashes of it in TLJ, however, particularly the opening scenes on Jakku). And I don't know what it is.. part of it is the annual release thing...nothing good ever comes from annual releases...But what I suspect the difference is that the OT were films made for the sake of making good fantasy films.. whereas with Disney its making a fantasy film (that looks and talks the right way at times) ultimately just to make bank and for no other reason. I don't believe for a second there is a person at the helm of the ST with as much passion for SW as George Lucas had when he made the OT. And it shows. Art made from passion and for the sake of it will always be more profound than something made with profiteering as its primary intention. We will never get a new ESB or a new ANH. But maybe that is an unfair expectation to lay on Disney. So, whatever.

 

Also, with the OT... Lucas had a story to tell. He had it all figured out (roughly)... but you know his vision and intent was clear. With the films Disney has put out.. it feels like they are making it up as the go along, with no concept of continuity or consideration to an overall arc as a trilogy. And that is a massive let down. They sort of work as films individually, but sat next to each other they are quite jarring. Completely different tonally, not to mention all the dropped narrative threads. Its like there was no intention to make a unified story.

 

That said I am actually looking forward to seeing JJ back at the helm. I think TFA is the superior SW film. JJ captured that feel better than Johnson.

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I actually think this trilogy has that fairy tale feel alot, more in TFA for sure. The end with Rey, Finn and Kylo in the woods is just pure fairy tale stuff.

 

As for passion, I just dont know. Obviously Disney is in it for the money, but watch The Director and the Jedi on the blu ray extras. Johnson is beyond passionate. I'm sure JJ is the same.

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Back in my day movies were so good you watchem over and over and they only cost a nickle and the popcorn tasted better and had no fat. One time my grandpappy and me watched Indiana Jones 43 times in a row. Didn't sleep or take bathroom breaks.

 

The popcorn tasted better precisely because it did have the fat.

 

TFA had the fairy tale feel because it's ANH 2.0. Once they got that out of the way it's gone.

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I actually have that TFA nostalgia. From the very first trailer to my last rewatch. For all it's flaws I actually appreciate JJ now for capturing that feel. I want Kylo Ren with his mask on. I want the mystique of Snoke to come back. Was the movie great? No. But it did more justice to the OT than TLJ.

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Maybe you're right about Tank and others but you are arguing against me when I was trying to support your argument: TLJ is a more competently made film, but AOTC, with all its flaws, may be more rewatchable.

 

Note: I have not rewatched AOTC since seeing it theatres. Same with TLJ.

This isn't a negative or anything but it seems crazy to me that you'd spend as much time here discussing Star Wars but essentially spend no time watching a couple of the movies. That's not to say you spend too much time here or anything, I certainly spend my fair share. Just that statement seems crazy for someone who cares about the movies enough to spend any time here at all.

 

Although in another way I commend that, you watched a movie, you didn't love it. Then instead of watching something you don't love over and over, you just moved on. In a different way that makes total and complete sense.

I'd like to say it's because I'm so sensible. Truth is, I just haven't had time to rewatch TLJ yet. I do want to see if I'll like it better the second time. And I am curious to rewatch AOTC and ROTS after watching TCW last year, but I have a strong feeling it will go like Tank said. I have a theory that if I watch them and pretend I'm watching TCW, they'll be better (maybe some Acid will help with that). I have a theory that Lucas thought he was writing cartoon movies and not live action.

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