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The I've Seen The Last Jedi Thread (spoilers OBV)


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One thing I was thinking while watching the Blu Rey. People complain about the Canto Bight scenes, and they are my least favorite too. But I think people believe that these scenes are a huge part of the movie. They only cut their twice for a total of maybe 11 or 12 minutes. Also they leave Canto Bight at around the 1:10 mark of the movie, which is basically halfway through the movie. Im not really defending those scenes, like I said they are my least favorite. And I think the movie probably is better servied if Finn, Rose and BB-8 sneak directly onto the Star Destroyer and then have a longer stay and more of an adventure on the Star Destroyer. But I do think some people in their minds seem to believe that the whole middle of the movie is devoted to that little quest where that's just not the case.

 

Also as far as the slow speed chase, thats the kind of thing that seems to bother me in restrospect more than while watching. When I think about it afterwards it is kinda like "how did no one there think that a ship could hyperspace in the path of the Resistance when every single fan thought it?" Like Tank and some others have said about 1 or 2 lines on Snoke could make that better, I think one exchange could have solved alot of the "slow chase" issue.

 

Underling: General Hux, should I contact Admiral So and So and have him hyperspace in the path of their cruiser? We'd have them trapped.

 

Hux: And allow Admiral So and So to capture them and receive the credit? I think not. They will run out of fuel soon enough and then they will be mine and the Supreme Leader will know my worth.

 

 

That takes away the issue of the First Order seeming dumb for not thinking of it. And Hux saying that fits perfectly with his character in terms of him being portrayed as a not so capable leader and also his obvious want to impress Snoke.

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I think all with Rey and Kylo in Snoke's throne room is just beautiful. It's the scenes I re-watch the most.

I hope I'll like that more on second viewing. I mean that, I honestly do.

 

On my first viewing, it felt like a set for some kind of dance performance. It just made me think of how great the set was for the initial Luke-Vader duel in ESB. For me it felt like he was really trying to create something iconic like that and coming up short.

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When I think about it afterwards it is kinda like "how did no one there think that a ship could hyperspace in the path of the Resistance when every single fan thought it?"

Travelling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy!

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I don't out and out hate this movie anymore. It might even be kinda good-ish at times (and cringe-worthy at others!). What I really don't care for is just some of the plot decisions they made. Not in a "omg they're RUINING MY STAR WAR and I need to tell everyone to hate it" kind of way, just a "Meh, that's not what I wanted to see... oh well, I guess" kind of way.

 

 

Basically it is like Force Awakens for me. It's fine. It's entertaining. It's Star Wars so I like it. But I don't love it.

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On my first viewing, it felt like a set for some kind of dance performance.

 

That's what they were going for. Why do you think Snoke was dressed like that?

I think you're joking. But I'm not sure.

I do think it's what they were going for, it just didn't work for me.

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I finally saw this last night (Blu-Ray). I thought it was tremendous. The Canto Bight scenes were very good, to me. I don't think they went on too long. The effects were tremendous, as always. The beginning space battle was very cool. Snoke and Yoda looked good. For Yoda, they made him look just as he did when he passed in ROTJ. Same old face/features. The humor in this was very good. I loved the movie.

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Okay I've tried watching this numerous times now and I have not been able to get through it once. There are just large parts of this movie that I find........boring. I can't put it any simpler than that. It was the last thing I complained about walking out if the theater, and it's the prominent thing I'm thinking about now.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

I like AOTC better than TLJ, it's slightly less boring

AOTC is pretty, mediocre. Maybe a 6 out of 10 for me. But as time goes on, it doesn't really get worse, other than the aging CGI.

 

TLJ, however, I started out being OK with it, but as time goes on, I like it less and less. Right now, I have to say it is also a 6 out of 10 for me. Ask me in a month or 2, I may say it is worse.

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AOTC is literally one of the worst movies ever made, on every conceivable level. Not just bad Star Wars, but just BAD.

 

TLJ does indeed get boring. I remember the exact moment when I started to feel disapointment seep in when I realized— “Oh... this isn’t setting something up... this IS the movie.”

 

But despite it’s plot trouble, logic issues, and pointless movements, it’s still a well-crafted, beautiful looking movie with quality performances and amazing visuals. AOTC has none of those things and is eggregiously awful in its writing and acting.

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I think the only part of the movie that is really lacking is the Resistance vs First Order side of the story after the opening battle. The stuff on the island is all good, no real issues there. Ofcourse though that side of the story isn't going to be action packed or exciting so the other side of it has to pick up that slack and for the most part it doesn't quite work. However once Finn and Rose leave Canto Bight, roughly 1:10 into the movie, the whole movie becomes awesome. Right after they leave Canto Bight we get to Rey and Kylo's connection where he gives her his version of events. From that point on, its great.

 

I wonder if they had just cut the Canto Bight stuff, had Finn and Rose go straight to Snoke's ship. Maybe make Rose be like some kind of computer nerd rather than maintenance and she can hack them on the ship, then have them have a slightly longer adventure on Snoke's ship how much better that part of the movie would have been?

 

That part of the movie overall is a weakness although I like most of the ideas like lightspeed no longer being a get out of jail free card, the Resistance being under constant pressure, the crazy mission failing miserably. The way they went about showing those ideas is lacking though. However once it turns the corner roughly half way through it becomes flat out awesome. The last 1:10 or so of the movie is as good of a long stretch of a Star Wars movie as we've gotten in any Star Wars movie.

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I think the only part of the movie that is really lacking is the Resistance vs First Order side of the story after the opening battle. The stuff on the island is all good, no real issues there. Ofcourse though that side of the story isn't going to be action packed or exciting so the other side of it has to pick up that slack and for the most part it doesn't quite work. However once Finn and Rose leave Canto Bight, roughly 1:10 into the movie, the whole movie becomes awesome. Right after they leave Canto Bight we get to Rey and Kylo's connection where he gives her his version of events. From that point on, its great.

 

I wonder if they had just cut the Canto Bight stuff, had Finn and Rose go straight to Snoke's ship. Maybe make Rose be like some kind of computer nerd rather than maintenance and she can hack them on the ship, then have them have a slightly longer adventure on Snoke's ship how much better that part of the movie would have been?

 

That part of the movie overall is a weakness although I like most of the ideas like lightspeed no longer being a get out of jail free card, the Resistance being under constant pressure, the crazy mission failing miserably. The way they went about showing those ideas is lacking though. However once it turns the corner roughly half way through it becomes flat out awesome. The last 1:10 or so of the movie is as good of a long stretch of a Star Wars movie as we've gotten in any Star Wars movie.

But we DID have those boring bits in the first 1\2. Finn and Rose didn't go straight to Snokes ship, we DID get canto blight and the slow motion chase that was like watching paint dry. No matter how good the second half, those parts still hang like a ball and chain around TLJ's metaphorical ankle.

 

I agree that the second half... Or quarter...was cool, but it's negated by all the shit we have to slug through to get there.

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On a bad / grumpy day, I only really like the "stuff on the island". The milking scene is still my favorite bit; it was slightly gross / unpasteurized, but also unexpected and alien and funny and totally Star Wars. The last stand on Crait might be spectacular, but I also think a lot of it is a bit ridiculous. Luke v Kylo is fine, but not so good that it stopped me from thinking of better ways of doing it.

 

My biggest issue with TLJ is not being excited about Episode IX that much (although that might change when the trailers / marketing start); there isn't that hint / nod towards potentially great things that I got with TFA. Those things are still there, especially if Rey's vision of Kylo and the Knights of Ren is in the future, but the way TLJ ends just doesn't scream "omg omg, you've got to see the next one!" at me.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

AOTC is literally one of the worst movies ever made, on every conceivable level. Not just bad Star Wars, but just BAD.

 

TLJ does indeed get boring. I remember the exact moment when I started to feel disapointment seep in when I realized— “Oh... this isn’t setting something up... this IS the movie.”

 

But despite it’s plot trouble, logic issues, and pointless movements, it’s still a well-crafted, beautiful looking movie with quality performances and amazing visuals. AOTC has none of those things and is eggregiously awful in its writing and acting.

Not to me. I'd never argue AOTC is a masterpiece, but TLJ has serious issues that are AT LEAST as bad, if not worse. For me, outside the scenes with Luke (and Rey with Luke) and the better, more polished FX, TLJ is at the same level of quality as the PT films. Canto Bight scenes alone are scenes that would be right at home in the PT. Amazingly, I care more about Anakin as a character, than I do for Poe or Finn. I like Rey as a character (my favorite out of the ST's 3 main good guy characters), but if she is supposed to be this trilogy's stand in for a Skywalker, I find that she does not seem to go through the same and interesting type of growth that comes with overcoming adversity Luke and Anakin did. She basically is powered off the charts like a silver age Superman and effectively has beaten Kylo twice, and is an expert pilot, and is a de facto jedi master. Not much else can be done with her, until she faces (and possibly loses initially, thereby growing in the process) to a real challenge. Kylo is interesting, and in all honesty better than Anakin, but I find him far less interesting after TLJ, which demystified and humanized him a little too much. You can't argue that DJ is a well thought out and written, much less likable character. You can't argue the slowest space chase ever is quality writing. You can't argue Holdo, who never shares her grand plan and could have avoided all sorts of drama (and mutiny) for reasons makes any kind of sense. I could go on and on, but the point is TLJ comes off to me as a rough draft of a movie, with all kinds of plot holes I can't reconcile, and cheap shock value twists. As time goes on and I process the movie more and more, these issues bother me more than anything from the PT.

 

Matter of opinion for sure, but you cannot convince me TLJ's quality is superior to AOTC. The things that bug me about AOTC bother me less than what bothers me about TLJ. AOTC does NOT invalidate the deeds of the OT cast. TLJ, on the other hand, practically trashes everything that came before, including the OT, PT, R1, and even TFA.

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When you have a poorly written script on top of terrible acting, and shoddy FX, I just can’t.

 

I’m not defending TLJ’s choices— but they were choices. People not liking choices is a different beast than talking just pure quality filmmaking. Even at it’s worst, TLJ looks amazing and the performances are great. You may not like what they decided to do— but the craftsmanship is still top notch, outside of some poor structure choices in the script.

 

AOTC reduced to pure craft is a flaming dumpster fire.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

I totally understand what you are saying and I am not defending AOTC, either. Suffice it to say that all the points you bring up about AOTC, I agree with, but I also believe apply to TLJ, and in some cases, more so. Your examples of choices, to me, has a direct effect on the quality of the films, and are the same thing as poor or inadequate writing. I'd say they are one and the same. Especially when something is written as a twist or a change of direction, simply for the novelty of it, and not because it is a logical progression of the character or story arc.

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Your examples of choices, to me, has a direct effect on the quality of the films, and are the same thing as poor or inadequate writing. I'd say they are one and the same.

Every story you don't like is a poorly-crafted story, then?

 

I don't like lots of stuff, but that doesn't make the stuff I don't like objectively bad. AOTC is objectively bad. TLJ is just disliked, not objectively bad.

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Matter of opinion for sure, but you cannot convince me TLJ's quality is superior to AOTC. The things that bug me about AOTC bother me less than what bothers me about TLJ. AOTC does NOT invalidate the deeds of the OT cast. TLJ, on the other hand, practically trashes everything that came before, including the OT, PT, R1, and even TFA.

This is exactly why I can't stand the ST. Say whatever you want about the PT, but I can still watch it knowing what it is leading to with the OT characters and story. The ST has changed the OT in ways I can't enjoy so it's best just to skip it.

 

I'll always wonder what we could've gotten had Lucas sold Lucasfilm before making the PT. The people making the ST now would benefit from being reigned in to a PT story that constrained them somewhat knowing where it had to end up while at the same time giving them the ability to make something with the quality they are making the ST with. Think of an Adam Driver-type performance for Anakin Skywalker.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

 

Your examples of choices, to me, has a direct effect on the quality of the films, and are the same thing as poor or inadequate writing. I'd say they are one and the same.

Every story you don't like is a poorly-crafted story, then?

 

I don't like lots of stuff, but that doesn't make the stuff I don't like objectively bad. AOTC is objectively bad. TLJ is just disliked, not objectively bad.

 

It is in my view, and relative to me, but I am not claiming that as a universal truth. If you like it, your mileage will vary. I am not saying TLJ's failures are universally bad, because the audience is divided. Some loved the movie. I just happen to be in the camp that do not.

 

But there is no such thing as art being objectively bad. It can only be subjectively bad.

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Matter of opinion for sure, but you cannot convince me TLJ's quality is superior to AOTC. The things that bug me about AOTC bother me less than what bothers me about TLJ. AOTC does NOT invalidate the deeds of the OT cast. TLJ, on the other hand, practically trashes everything that came before, including the OT, PT, R1, and even TFA.

 

This is exactly why I cant stand the ST. Say whatever you want about the PT, but I can still watch it knowing what it was leading to with the OT characters and story. The ST has changed the OT in ways I cant enjoy so its best just to skip it.

Ill alway wonder what we couldve gotten had Lucas sold Lucasfilm before making the PT. The people making the ST now would benefit from being reigned in to a PT story that constrained them somewhat knowing where it had to end up while at the same time giving them the ability to make something with the quality they are making the ST with. Think of an Adam Driver-type performance for Anakin Skywalker.

Id argue for almost 20 years (cause I have) that the PT 100% effects how you view the classic OT characters. Anakin of the PT is not the Darth Vader of the OT. Watching Vader in the OT and thinking before the suit he was a whiney 20-something douchebag is NOT the Vader I wanted to see.

 

Obi-Wan was changed from a great mentor to a side kick. And while not much was given to establish Padme as a character, I certainly never thought the mother of Luke and Leia was an ineffectual politician that needed to be repeatredly rescued and died of a broken heart.

 

Pretty much the only pre-established PT character that played out as the OT implied was Palpatine.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

 

 

Matter of opinion for sure, but you cannot convince me TLJ's quality is superior to AOTC. The things that bug me about AOTC bother me less than what bothers me about TLJ. AOTC does NOT invalidate the deeds of the OT cast. TLJ, on the other hand, practically trashes everything that came before, including the OT, PT, R1, and even TFA.

This is exactly why I cant stand the ST. Say whatever you want about the PT, but I can still watch it knowing what it was leading to with the OT characters and story. The ST has changed the OT in ways I cant enjoy so its best just to skip it.

Ill alway wonder what we couldve gotten had Lucas sold Lucasfilm before making the PT. The people making the ST now would benefit from being reigned in to a PT story that constrained them somewhat knowing where it had to end up while at the same time giving them the ability to make something with the quality they are making the ST with. Think of an Adam Driver-type performance for Anakin Skywalker.

Id argue for almost 20 years (cause I have) that the PT 100% effects how you view the classic OT characters. Anakin of the PT is not the Darth Vader of the OT. Watching Vader in the OT and thinking before the suit he was a whiney 20-something douchebag is NOT the Vader I wanted to see.

 

Obi-Wan was changed from a great mentor to a side kick. And while not much was given to establish Padme as a character, I certainly never thought the mother of Luke and Leia was an ineffectual politician that needed to be repeatredly rescued and died of a broken heart.

 

Pretty much the only pre-established PT character that played out as the OT implied was Palpatine.

 

The difference is that even if one agreed 100% with your arguments, OT Vader and PT Anakin really are meant to be two different people even in Vader's mind. While HC's portrayal of Anakin was largely a miss, especially in AOTC (He was a lot better in ROTS), how Anakin was portrayed in the PT does NOT affect how Vader was portrayed in the OT. He progressed FROM being a whiner to a ruthless villain. However, TLJ (especially) and to a lesser extent the ST in general (I still really like TFA, don't misunderstand and I am not bashing the ST as a whole, my issues are mainly with TLJ), the events and sacrifices of the main characters in the OT are one by one turn on their head, or otherwise invalidated. Luke is ultimately shown to be a failure, and one who abandoned his principles. His character REGRESSED, and not in a good way. His achievements in the OT were nullified, and ultimately did not learn from the failures of Anakin and Obi Wan, either. The galaxy can burn for all he cares. So, for me, there is a big difference. The PT was disappointing on some levels, but never affected how I felt about the OT. TLJ, however, just was bad writing all around (yes, my opinion, not stating as fact), and while I still love the OT and my feelings about it has not changed, the interpretation on how the OT and TFA plays out and ends, is now seen through a different lens.

 

I know your issues with the PT are well documented, and I know I am not going to change your mind on them. In fact you make/ have made a lot of good points I agree on the PT. I just don't hate them the way you do. But when it comes to TLJ, sorry, I just can't agree with you there. Every criticism one has about the PT, I feel also applies to TLJ. It's not about just taking a story in an unexpected direction. It is that those directions were bad, out of character, and much of the plot devices were poorly written, in my view.

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I have loved all 9 movies. That's it. I found nothing boring about TLJ. Luke/Rey scenes, Kylo/Snoke scenes, The Resistance desperation to stay alive, Leia finally using the force, Rey and Kylo connecting through the force and finding out it was setup by Snoke, Luke force-projecting and seeing Leia, 3PO and confronting Kylo, and finally his death. Also, Rose was cute and funny. Glad that she is still alive. At least it looked like they were caring for her and not dead.

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Matter of opinion for sure, but you cannot convince me TLJ's quality is superior to AOTC. The things that bug me about AOTC bother me less than what bothers me about TLJ. AOTC does NOT invalidate the deeds of the OT cast. TLJ, on the other hand, practically trashes everything that came before, including the OT, PT, R1, and even TFA.

 

This is exactly why I cant stand the ST. Say whatever you want about the PT, but I can still watch it knowing what it was leading to with the OT characters and story. The ST has changed the OT in ways I cant enjoy so its best just to skip it.

Ill alway wonder what we couldve gotten had Lucas sold Lucasfilm before making the PT. The people making the ST now would benefit from being reigned in to a PT story that constrained them somewhat knowing where it had to end up while at the same time giving them the ability to make something with the quality they are making the ST with. Think of an Adam Driver-type performance for Anakin Skywalker.

Id argue for almost 20 years (cause I have) that the PT 100% effects how you view the classic OT characters. Anakin of the PT is not the Darth Vader of the OT. Watching Vader in the OT and thinking before the suit he was a whiney 20-something douchebag is NOT the Vader I wanted to see.

Obi-Wan was changed from a great mentor to a side kick. And while not much was given to establish Padme as a character, I certainly never thought the mother of Luke and Leia was an ineffectual politician that needed to be repeatredly rescued and died of a broken heart.

Pretty much the only pre-established PT character that played out as the OT implied was Palpatine.

The difference is that even if one agreed 100% with your arguments, OT Vader and PT Anakin really are meant to be two different people even in Vader's mind. While HC's portrayal of Anakin was largely a miss, especially in AOTC (He was a lot better in ROTS), how Anakin was portrayed in the PT does NOT affect how Vader was portrayed in the OT. He progressed FROM being a whiner to a ruthless villain. However, TLJ (especially) and to a lesser extent the ST in general (I still really like TFA, don't misunderstand and I am not bashing the ST as a whole, my issues are mainly with TLJ), the events and sacrifices of the main characters in the OT are one by one turn on their head, or otherwise invalidated. Luke is ultimately shown to be a failure, and one who abandoned his principles. His character REGRESSED, and not in a good way. His achievements in the OT were nullified, and ultimately did not learn from the failures of Anakin and Obi Wan, either. The galaxy can burn for all he cares. So, for me, there is a big difference. The PT was disappointing on some levels, but never affected how I felt about the OT. TLJ, however, just was bad writing all around (yes, my opinion, not stating as fact).

See, I always thought the transformation was from a “great warrior” and “finest starpilot in the galaxy” aka a hero and veteran on par with Obi-Wan who was some great and noble knight that fell from grace and went evil.

 

Not a petulant man-child with mommy issues...

 

But obviously our mileages vary...

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