Lord Darth Hunter Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 It's always been that way. I never saw it as the Force was making them bad. Anakin chose his path. The Force didn't make him do the terrible things he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavonis Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 It took me some time to adjust to this light/dark dichotomy. In the original trilogy, it was referred to as the force, and the dark side. There was the force for good, and then there was the perversion of it. Now it's neutral, just telekinesis and precognition powers. Not as mystical to me. So, Luke was told by Yoda that he would be the last of the Jedi, and that he should pass on what he learned. Apparently he tried to do just that. Where was he training the future Jedi? It couldn't be on Ahch-To. It didn't look like Tatooine. I don't think it was Coruscant. How long did the training last? How many students did he graduate? Presumably they're all dead after the attack by the Knights of Ren. So after one massive failure Luke quits training and goes into exile (taking after Obi-wan and Yoda). He then decided that the Jedi as an organized community of force-wielding, lightsaber-swinging warrior monks needed to end. So why did he need to go to the original Jedi temple? What's at Ahch-To that makes it an ideal place to be a depressed retired Jedi master? Is he protecting something there from being found by Snoke and Kylo? Or is he intending to just live out his days surrounded by remnants of the Jedi order? And why leave a trail to his whereabouts, if he wants the Jedi to end? If Luke decided Jedi weren't the solution to the problems facing the new Republic, why not just disappear completely? Did he have a vision of the future, perhaps telling him that he had one last battle to fight before the Jedi could be safely ended? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Choc Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 It took me some time to adjust to this light/dark dichotomy. In the original trilogy, it was referred to as the force, and the dark side. There was the force for good, and then there was the perversion of it. Now it's neutral, just telekinesis and precognition powers. Not as mystical to me. So, Luke was told by Yoda that he would be the last of the Jedi, and that he should pass on what he learned. Apparently he tried to do just that. Where was he training the future Jedi? It couldn't be on Ahch-To. It didn't look like Tatooine. I don't think it was Coruscant. How long did the training last? How many students did he graduate? Presumably they're all dead after the attack by the Knights of Ren. So after one massive failure Luke quits training and goes into exile (taking after Obi-wan and Yoda). He then decided that the Jedi as an organized community of force-wielding, lightsaber-swinging warrior monks needed to end. So why did he need to go to the original Jedi temple? What's at Ahch-To that makes it an ideal place to be a depressed retired Jedi master? Is he protecting something there from being found by Snoke and Kylo? Or is he intending to just live out his days surrounded by remnants of the Jedi order? And why leave a trail to his whereabouts, if he wants the Jedi to end? If Luke decided Jedi weren't the solution to the problems facing the new Republic, why not just disappear completely? Did he have a vision of the future, perhaps telling him that he had one last battle to fight before the Jedi could be safely ended? It took me some time to adjust to this light/dark dichotomy. In the original trilogy, it was referred to as the force, and the dark side. There was the force for good, and then there was the perversion of it. Now it's neutral, just telekinesis and precognition powers. Not as mystical to me. So, Luke was told by Yoda that he would be the last of the Jedi, and that he should pass on what he learned. Apparently he tried to do just that. Where was he training the future Jedi? It couldn't be on Ahch-To. It didn't look like Tatooine. I don't think it was Coruscant. How long did the training last? How many students did he graduate? Presumably they're all dead after the attack by the Knights of Ren. So after one massive failure Luke quits training and goes into exile (taking after Obi-wan and Yoda). He then decided that the Jedi as an organized community of force-wielding, lightsaber-swinging warrior monks needed to end. So why did he need to go to the original Jedi temple? What's at Ahch-To that makes it an ideal place to be a depressed retired Jedi master? Is he protecting something there from being found by Snoke and Kylo? Or is he intending to just live out his days surrounded by remnants of the Jedi order? And why leave a trail to his whereabouts, if he wants the Jedi to end? If Luke decided Jedi weren't the solution to the problems facing the new Republic, why not just disappear completely? Did he have a vision of the future, perhaps telling him that he had one last battle to fight before the Jedi could be safely ended? Your first point is I think potentially addressed in Luke's words "it's so much bigger than that". The simple tricks that weve seen from the Jedi and Sith are small potatoes. On the 2nd point, that's a huge question but I think those books we saw in the trailer could be the answer. As for him leaving a map to himself, I don't know if that was the internt. In TFA Han says Luk likely went to the first Jedi Temple. Then we have a "map to Skywalker". I think wording it that way was a mistake done for clarity. The map is a map to the first Temple, where Luke was thought to be. I don't think Luke left a map wanting to be found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavonis Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 If you don't want to be found, you don't leave a hint as to your destination. I suspect Luke went looking for the first Jedi temple to find out how they trained the first Jedi knights. His situation is most similar to the original Jedi - how do you train them "right" when no one can guide you? I suspect what he found at Ahch-To discouraged him from continuing any training, concluding that the Jedi should end rather than be reborn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Choc Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 I think he found limited information but information that caused him to pause and not know how to proceed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Filthy Jawa Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 It's always been that way. I never saw it as the Force was making them bad. Anakin chose his path. The Force didn't make him do the terrible things he did.Yes. Took the words out of my mouth. Some funny assumptions being made from some theories based on a teaser. Some of these theories may end up being correct, but it's starting to sound like people are forming theories based on earlier theories as though they were facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Krawlie Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 Not only is it likely the entire trailer is out of context, half of what we see/hear won't even make the final cut. I'm still sad about the TIE fighter shot in the rogue one trailer not making it in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Choc Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 Did anyone say The Force made Anakin do bad things? I certainly don't think that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 Did anyone say The Force made Anakin do bad things? I certainly don't think that. I kind of like where it is going. It means that characters are responsible for their actions, decisions and destinies, rather than disowning those things and crying 'the force did it' when someone goes bad. Seems like they might be heading thematically in the direction of "own your ****" so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Choc Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 Fair enough, I don't see it that way at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Robin Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 Star Wars is super simple with it's view of Good and Evil. It's designed that way to start with. One way Star Wars crafts it's clear moral lines is with a "deity" that can be "conversed" with; The Force has a Will and It's Will must be brought to fruition. Anything that isn't the Will of the Force is evil. The tragedies of life are just that tragedies, unfortunate heartache for us confined to this realm of being to have to cope with. Unlike real life when someone says God told them something and so we should do something we then can't verify that. In Star Wars it is verifiable, just quiet your mind and you hear the Will. The muddying of this certainty in story comes due to the perspectives of "earthbound" beings bringing their own ideas about morality etc to the Force. The Council initially opposes Qui-Gon's insistence that Anakin must be trained, the Council's biases worked against the Will of the Force and this is the truth that Qui-Gon "yells" at them about. The Council teetered on the precipice of a dark path with their initial decision. Anakin works against the Will of the Force when he starts deciding he knows best, that his loved ones must live or else and anyone or thing that is against that stance is evil. Anakin was lost not just because of killing younglings etc, but because he abandoned the Will of the Force, choosing his own Will. Qui-Gon "yells" at Anakin during his fall because of this. Yoda counsels Anakin to let go of "earthly" matters because of this. Yoda and Obi-Wan teach this very thing to Luke. The ideas of Grey Jedi and all that nonsense is nonsense given how the films work. You are either working (consciously or subconsciously) with the Force or you're not. The ideas of a Light Side (in books and games) and Dark Side of the Force are "lies". The Light Side is never once mentioned in the films, it's just the Force. The Dark Side of the Force is just a Force User corrupting their knowledge/powers of the Force to work for their Will, their purpose against the Will of the Force. Whether a Dark Side character is working just for personal gain or because they believe their way is the way, it's their Will they invoke not some actual Dark Side to the Force. This is why all EU is dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 I'm torn cause I rather like the shades of gray-- and the Bendu on Rebels embodied it. That said, Robin is right-- the simplicity of Star Wars is generally the thing most messed up by fanfics, fan films, the EU... Given the more gritty Rogue One and the fact that TFA has laid a little groundwork, I wouldn't be surprised if things were made more nuanced. No idea if it would work or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucas1138 Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 I'm totally fine with shades of gray. *puts on nerd glasses* I really liked the Anakin Solo school of thought that the Force was just a tool - and could be used for good or bad. I realize, as has been mentioned numerous times, why that kind of thing would pose an issue in the films. I don't think the Bendu being in the middle and getting the spotlight a little bit is an accident. I think they're committed to building a cohesive story across platforms. I'm not saying the movies will be beholden to anything, just that they're honestly making that effort. --- I think the space battle in the trailer is the evacuation of D'Qar (or whatever... it's something like that... the Resistance base). I think the movie opens like ESB with the Imperials closing in on the rebels. Johnson et al have said that the First Order strikes early in this film, since the galaxy is in a bit of turmoil with the seat of the Republic being destroyed and a chunk of the fleet with it. I have to imagine that means an attack on the Resistance base to try to wipe it out. This is the space battle in the trailer, as well as the shot of Poe losing his X-Wing (yet again), and Phasma and co. walking in through the flames. Finn and Rose have some kind of team-up, maybe as they flee the base. Not sure what they, Poe, and Leia will be up to during the movie. The First Order gets access to the now-complete map and that puts Luke/Rey at risk. Rey shows up and Luke is reluctant to do much of anything (Daisy said during the TLJ panel that her expectations for Luke are thrown when she actually meets him - I'm assuming that means he's preoccupied either with being a hermit or accomplishing some higher purpose). He eventually relents, probably because he realizes that he needs her help. I think the First Order shows up on Ach-To (snippet in the trailer with the Falcon and Tie Fighters dogfighting is my evidence - and yes of course that could implicate any number of things) and there's a big action sequence with Luke/Rey/First Order people. Maybe that will lead into the third act? I'm not sure they either A) want to blow their Luke load not at the climax (pun really not intended) but I'm also not sure they'll keep Luke in isolation for 2 full movies. Maybe they will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamonAtila Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 Well one thing I noticed is that Luke never actually contradicts the line about their being a light side and the dark side of the force as well as a balance. He just said it's so much bigger. So you guys are all going off about this gray area not knowing what Luke is even talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Darth Hunter Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 It took me some time to adjust to this light/dark dichotomy. In the original trilogy, it was referred to as the force, and the dark side. There was the force for good, and then there was the perversion of it. Now it's neutral, just telekinesis and precognition powers. Not as mystical to me. So, Luke was told by Yoda that he would be the last of the Jedi, and that he should pass on what he learned. Apparently he tried to do just that. Where was he training the future Jedi? It couldn't be on Ahch-To. It didn't look like Tatooine. I don't think it was Coruscant. How long did the training last? How many students did he graduate? Presumably they're all dead after the attack by the Knights of Ren. So after one massive failure Luke quits training and goes into exile (taking after Obi-wan and Yoda). He then decided that the Jedi as an organized community of force-wielding, lightsaber-swinging warrior monks needed to end. So why did he need to go to the original Jedi temple? What's at Ahch-To that makes it an ideal place to be a depressed retired Jedi master? Is he protecting something there from being found by Snoke and Kylo? Or is he intending to just live out his days surrounded by remnants of the Jedi order? And why leave a trail to his whereabouts, if he wants the Jedi to end? If Luke decided Jedi weren't the solution to the problems facing the new Republic, why not just disappear completely? Did he have a vision of the future, perhaps telling him that he had one last battle to fight before the Jedi could be safely ended? I am going to really hate this movie if it turns out Luke was hiding just to hide. He better have a purpose for disappearing. Searching for some truth in the old temple, protecting something that can't fall into the wrong hands, I don't care what it is. But if he went into hiding just to live out his final years so that with his death the Jedi can end, that's going to be crap. TFA already made Han into a deadbeat dad. Now TLJ is going to make Luke into the effed up uncle? He failed in training his nephew and sees him become the new Darth Vader, and his solution to make this right is to go off and die? Kenobi and Yoda went into hiding with a purpose. They had to bide their time and wait for the right moment to spring Luke on Vader and the Emperor to fix their mistakes from years past. Luke better have a similar reason for all this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANA-kin Skywalker Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 Since Luke's lines might not even be in the actual film, we very well may be talking about nothing. If it is in the movie however, i think an important distinction to make is the difference between "balance", and this idea of "shades of grey". In terms of simple, standard Star Wars morality the former is obvious, while the latter does not even compute (with me anyways). The light = good, dark = evil. THATS IT. I believe the point behind Luke's lines in the trailer is that one cannot exist without the other, and I guess this has always been a blind spot for the Jedi. Taoism and all that wonderful yin and yang stuff. You don't want to call it "light side" and just call it "the force"? Fine. Whatever. Same thing. If all this is true, however, then this idea of shades of grey cannot make sense. It might seem to make some kind of sense in a video game, sliding scale morality meter kind-of way, but certainly not in a two hour Star Wars movie. If you're using the force, you are either using it for a good reason, or for a selfish or evil reason. The idea has always been if you use if for selfish or evil reasons, you tend to get corrupted by its power...but in all practicality that's really just a story-telling device for the audience to make the distinction between good and bad easier. Easy and simple morality = star wars. This topic reminded me of a very stupid line from ROTS. Anakin says to Obi-Wan "if you're not with me, then you're my enemy". Then Obi-Wan responds "Only a sith deals in absolutes". If that's true, that would make him, Yoda, and Mace all sith as well. This contradiction makes me wonder if Lucas was even in charge of his own mind when he wrote the dialogue. Or....secretly brilliant for sowing the seeds for flaws in Jedi logic, leading to their downfall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamonAtila Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 This whole idea of light not being able to exist without dark wood screw a lot of people up. The Jedi of the Old Republic didn't have to deal with this as much but Luke had it coming from his own family twice so it hit pretty close. Probably got him thinking what the hell is the light side of the force if it can't exist without the dark and is it's so much better than the dark anyway. Probably got him learning that it's just a side. Dealing in absolute I agree was the Jedis downfall. This is probably essentially what he's going to teach Rey. But Shades of Grey I also agree is total crap. Sounds like dark Jedi video game nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odine Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 Did anyone say The Force made Anakin do bad things? I certainly don't think that. I kind of like where it is going. It means that characters are responsible for their actions, decisions and destinies, rather than disowning those things and crying 'the force did it' when someone goes bad. Seems like they might be heading thematically in the direction of "own your ****" so to speak. I was a little unclear here. But redeeming Anakin/Vader after all the shit he did kind makes it seem like it was the dark side of the force that at the hands of the emperor that perverted him. And the PT makes pains to point that out. To me now it feels more like Anakin would have actively decided to embrace darkness on his own, all he needed was a little carrot dangled in front of him. Some access to power, and the freedom to act and do as he pleases without the Jedi telling him what to do. His "seduction" was nothing more than an old wizard showing him some cool tricks he could have access too if he wanted. But previously I felt they were taking the ownership of that away a little, as if it somehow wasn't all his own actions/doing, particularly when they refer to Vader and Anakin as being 2 seperate people even after we know they are in fact the same person. As if it were this Vader who did all these bad things, not Anakin. Vader who sought power not Anakin etc.. Then Luke redeems him and hey presto Anakin is a force ghost hanging with Yoda and its all cool. But.. I get it... Family movie, happy endings and all that. But I'm perhaps missinterpreting things. Still think Choc has the right of it though, and I'm not missunderstanding his meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Wader Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 The fact they keep referring to the "balance of the force" means they are carrying on Lucas' ideas and themes in a way, since the whole thing essentially came out of the prequels. I don't like the whole prophecy aspect to the story, but I always believed Anakin brought balance to the force by eliminating the Jedi and the Sith. After that, there was no dominate force users, just a balance. Then Luke tried to bring back the Jedi, and things went to s**t. That's when Luke "got it", and now wants to restore his Father's legacy. The Jedi, the Sith, Knights of Ren etc. all need to end for true balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANA-kin Skywalker Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 Exactly. It's like when your closet gets overstuffed with clothes and you need to throw a whole bunch of stuff out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Wader Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 I also think it's part of the reason he goes hermit. He feels responsible for Kylo and the death of his students, but also because by bringing back the Jedi he has f**ked up the balance his father restored. He feels like he has negated the years the galaxy suffered under the Empire by being responsible for bringing something worse. Also from what I've been reading, while they've said it will be a different Star Wars movie they also seem to be emphasising it's fun and light hearted approach. Added with Lucas at Celebration this weekend and the reiteration that the movies are for 12 year olds, I don't think they will over complicate it with this "grey Jedi" stuff. Luke will be in a dark spot I'm sure, but I think the different approach to this movie will be that Rey teaches Luke as much as he learns from her. It's not a traditional "master student" relationship, they bond from learning from one another somehow. Sorry if incoherent, drinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavonis Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 Why does the force need to be balanced? Who wants that? An equal number of good and bad guys doesn't lead to peace. It just leads to endless strife. Good is the default condition in fairy tales, and Evil is the unnatural state of being that has to be ended. Star Wars without the force being used by Jedi, Sith, or Knights of Ren, would just be generic space opera. Since I can't see why the producers would want to remove Star Wars' defining element, I can only conclude that this whole "balance of the force" and Luke's apparent goal of ending the Jedi is just misdirection. Of course Luke is going to train Rey as a Jedi. We even see some training in the teaser. And I do mean a Jedi, not a grey Jedi or some new kind of force-user group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Wader Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 They don't want to remove that element. They just pick up the parts of the story where the galaxy is going to crap and we get a good Star Wars story. We haven't seen anything made in the apparent Millenia of peace before Episode I either, because it'd be boring. I agree it's misdirection, but just because a character doesn't believe in anymore Jedi doesn't mean we are gonna see it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavonis Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 So, what is a grey (or gray) Jedi, anyway? They'll save the galaxy by swinging their lightsaber around, but they might have a red blade and maybe they'll force choke a few mooks along the way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamonAtila Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 An excuse for video game characters to have purple hair and dark mascara and call themselves dark Jedi But seriously this is all speculation. We don't know what Luke meant. All we know is he says it's bigger then the ballance between light and dark. That line could have been taken out of context. He might have said a bunch of stuff before and simply ending on that ambiguous line and it probably doesn't go much further than that. I maintain that is simply ends on him explaining that the old conservatism was the Jedis downfall. He'll pull a page out of Qui-Gonns book and yada yada yada you guys think it goes much further than it'll go. This could be just as for me as a fan on how I feel about characters like Obi-wan embodying the arrogance of the light side of the force. From him questioning Qui-Gon on Anakin to him saying only the Sith deal in absolutes. I feel this is Luke putting to rest my uneasiness about Star Wars picking a side instead of truly talking about the yin and yang. Star Wars enforces blue as a good color and red as a bad color. That's a big deal to me. They gotta make it up to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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