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What Episode IX needs to do to save the ST


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I want a Cantina scene in which Lando has to get up on stage and fill in for one of the alien musicians. He puts on some star shaped ocular enhancers (space shades) and lays down a sick Parliament-esq

When I first saw this I read it as Racist Leia and thought what an odd and inappropriate idea to save the sequel trilogy. Although I cant imagine recasting her would have a much better reaction than

I never had a problem with the Resistance being low on fuel, or the First Order being able to track in hyperspace. We saw both elements in ANH, like Poe says.   Where I had the problem was the slow

One movie can't save two mediocre-to-bad films. I'm not saying it's out of the realm of possibility for 9 to end up being a legitimately good film, but there's nothing it can do to retroactively color the others. And in order for it to be good it would have to be a standalone film, basically. I think Rian Johnson was trying to do that with Last Jedi, but seemed to be too fascinated with "subverting tropes" or whatever. So, he was still essentially tethered to the first film, which was too open ended. And now Abrams is tied to the bastardization of his own non-starter.

You're probably right but TLJ most definitely made TFA feel not as good to me when before I'd loved it. Maybe the reverse can happen. Maybe.

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This is one of the most intellectually dishonest posts I've ever seen. You don't believe a word of this.

 

Defending each point:

 

Claim: "His Star Trek films barely made a profit when he was at the helm."

 

Evidence: Star Trek's Worldwide was $387 million on a $150 million budget. Into Darkness's worldwide was $467 million on a $190 million budget. Using the simplified 2x box office rule of thumb, both Star Trek films got about $43.5 million in profit. Star Trek Beyond, which he produced, earned $343 million on a $185 million budget and is about $13.5 million under water.

 

The Star Trek films he directed were only moderate successes. It didn't take a big drop in box office receipts for the series to lose profitability and there's a reason why they've been slow to get a 4th movie started.

 

Claim: His latest producing credit movie was sold to Netflix.

 

Evidence: That's just a fact.

 

Claim: He directed the lowest-grossing Mission: Impossible movie (by a fairly hefty margin).

 

Evidence: This is also a fact.

 

Claim: Most of his television shows lately have been one-and-done.

 

Evidence: Abrams has a much stronger record on television than he does on the big screen, with with Felicity, Alias, Lost, Fringe, and Person of Interest under his belt. But his record the last few years, even as his film profile has gone up has been spotty at best.

 

Of his 7 television shows in the last 6 years, only two have seen a second season.

 

Claim: I don't think he's anywhere near Michael Bay level yet.

 

Evidence: In terms of film, Bay wins this easily. For his director credits, all four Transformers movies, Armageddon, Pearl Harbor, both Bad Boys movies, and The Rock are all more profitable than any of Abrams' movies save TFA and Super 8. As a producer, he has the Purge franchise, A Quiet Place, the Ouiji movies, and a slew of profitable horror remakes. Which make for a fairly good mix of borrowed and original IP. Furthermore, his production company Platinum Dunes which shares no overlap with his directing credits has made 17 movies in the past 15 years and all but two of them saw profit with at least 8 seeing more than triple its budget in profit and going as high as 15x with the first Purge movie.

 

Bad Robot's track record is more decidedly mixed even though they do have overlap with Abrams' films. 4 of their 14 movies probably lost money. And their only super-profitable movies were the Cloverfield movies, Super 8, TFA, and the Mission: Impossible movies Abrams didn't direct. Of those, only Cloverfield and Super 8 are success Abrams can claim any real credit for. Star Wars is its own beast and Mission: Impossible is Cruz's baby.

 

On television, Bay doesn't have the history, but he's arguably more successful lately.

 

If I were asked to invest money into one of the two, Bay's the easy choice.

 

You're missing one fundamental point and that is Michael Bay sucks, and his movies are shit, irrespective of the money they generate.

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You're missing one fundamental point and that is Michael Bay sucks, and his movies are ****, irrespective of the money they generate.

 

That's sorta why I chose him as an example. That and he overlaps Abrams' film strengths of big budget franchises and horror but has seen significantly more success in both realms.

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One movie can't save two mediocre-to-bad films. I'm not saying it's out of the realm of possibility for 9 to end up being a legitimately good film, but there's nothing it can do to retroactively color the others. And in order for it to be good it would have to be a standalone film, basically. I think Rian Johnson was trying to do that with Last Jedi, but seemed to be too fascinated with "subverting tropes" or whatever. So, he was still essentially tethered to the first film, which was too open ended. And now Abrams is tied to the bastardization of his own non-starter.

You're probably right but TLJ most definitely made TFA feel not as good to me when before I'd loved it. Maybe the reverse can happen. Maybe.

 

Of course it could happen. You could have a trilogy you love where the middle part is just forgettable. Like the bizarro OT

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I think the problem with the sequel Trilogy is that you have two directors that are trying to do their own setup. Once you get JJ Abrams back in you have a man that could wrap up everything that was put together. Now you say he has a problem with solving his own Mysteries, that could be an issue. But hopefully if he really did have balls this could be end up as the best film of the trilogy and we'll all be scratching our heads wondering how he could turn it all around like this. The third film in both Star Wars Trilogy so far has been a great departure from the first film of the trilogy. What JJ Abrams has to do to win me back is make something so radically different from what we got so far that it makes me sit back and just try to scratch my head. Sorry I wrote all this with voice command

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Yeah you needed to have an overarching plan. They didn't and the ST really suffered for that. Yeah yeah, Lucas did the OT that way, pulling things out of his ass at the last second. But he got REALLY lucky with that and it didn't work perfectly. You can't get that lucky twice.

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Yeah you needed to have an overarching plan. They didn't and the ST really suffered for that. Yeah yeah, Lucas did the OT that way, pulling things out of his ass at the last second. But he got REALLY lucky with that and it didn't work perfectly. You can't get that lucky twice.

 

It was also only Lucas, so at least the OT felt cohesive. There was only one ass to pull from.

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So to summarize, the crux of the Tank-Poe debate is Tank compares JJ to SS as a sci-fi blockbuster filmmaker and mogul and Poe just wants to compare dollar figures. Is he intentionally missing the point or is he just missing the point?* We may never know.

 

*and, as Tank would love to point out once more, the irony is that the comparison wasn't even really the point.

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That;s the one complaint I really don't get. TLJ's major plot points went pretty much exactly as I would have expected after watching TFA.

Hey Choc, is that you in your profile pic? If so you don't look like how I imagined.

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That;s the one complaint I really don't get. TLJ's major plot points went pretty much exactly as I would have expected after watching TFA.

Hey Choc, is that you in your profile pic? If so you don't look like how I imagined.

 

Yes, its me. Is that you in yours?

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So to summarize, the crux of the Tank-Poe debate is Tank compares JJ to SS as a sci-fi blockbuster filmmaker and mogul and Poe just wants to compare dollar figures.

I assume dollar figures, the number of successful projects, the variety of them, and the grooming of disciples are all rather important aspects in assigning someone the status of mogul and the biggest fish in the pond.

 

I just don't see the evidence that he's in that rarefied air yet.

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FFS my comparison was, when you look at Speilberg historically, he was a dude that created a brand. He then branched out into TV and films on a producer level to hire others to spread that brand. While making his own films, he continued to foster countless other projects as time went on.

 

JJ is doing the same thing. Not saying he's successful at it, not saying his brand is anything other than wanna-be Amblin, not even saying I am a big fan. I am saying he's one of the only people in the world outside of Speilberg who is doing this. Michael Bay makes Michael Bay films and has his named attached to anything Platinum Dunes puts out even if he's not involved.

 

...but NONE of this was the point of my post. All I was saying is, if you break screenwriting conventions, you better be good at it... but me saying that is screaming into the wind when people at the level of JJ Abrams do it and fail and get away with it.

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1. Don't Eff up Lando. Don't wussify him. Don't just give him a glorified cameo only to kill him off.

 

2. Luke: definitely bring him back as a ghost. Have him advise Rey, have him haunt Kylo much like Merlin did with Morgana Le Fay in the film Excalibur.

 

3. Kylo: He needs to be more Vader than Vader. Kylo needs to be basically what Vader-Anakin would have been had he not been defeated and maimed by Obi Wan. All powerful dictator much like the Emperor, and more brutal, but at the same time, the general public thinks he is a benevolent dictator and man of the people. I would like to see him order the First Order to commit attrocities so heinous that some in the First Order are shocked and appalled and some even defect or turn against Kylo. I'd also like to see Kylo "realize" that Vader was weak for turning back to the light in the end and he should no longer idolize him. Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should Kylo be redeemed. Depict the First Order as having completely won and what's left of the Rebels are being hunted down by the First Order, and the Rebellion as a movement, really is about die.

 

4. Rey: Ughh not sure what can be done with her. 2 movies in, and she defeated Kylo physically once, essentially saved his ass in TLJ, and the record is basically Rey=2, Kylo=0. Not sure it would even make sense to see Kylo defeat her at this point. What I DON'T want to see is Reylo. I suppose the logical thing would be to depict her as having mastered her abilities, but then starting to come to the conclusion that maybe SHE needs to walk away from it all, much like Luke did. Maybe she leads a failed mission that gets people killed. Maybe she just looks at the Resistance/Rebellion as too few in number and it cannot make a difference. I don't know. But whatever the cause of crisis, Luke's ghost then advises her not to walk away, and tells her about broom boy and others like him, giving Rey new-found hope that maybe she CAN help topple the First Order by training more jedi.

 

5. Hux: I'd like to see him start out as a reluctant Kylo supporter, but end up as a leader of a faction of the First Order that allies itself with the Rebels (sort of like Damar in Deep Space 9).

 

6. Finn: Finn should go full on rebel war hero and leader, and be a source of inspiration to First Order defectors, and ultimately be instrumental in recruiting/persuading said defectors to take up arms against Kylo. He needs to stop being a Rey fanboy.

 

7. Poe: For me, he's always been just there. Not very interesting to me. Probably just have him become a better leader, maybe supreme commander of the Rebels, who is not as impulsive, without destroying his character.

 

8. Maz: tell us that effing story for another time!

 

9. Kill Leia off in the opening crawl. Allow characters to reference her death in dialogue but sparingly and reveal that Kylo is the one who killed her.

 

10. Absolutely NO DJ!

 

11. Rose: eh, I thought she was OK and I don't get why she is hated. But not sure what can be done with her. Maybe have her and Finn hook up.

 

12. Time Jump! maybe somewhere between 7 to 10 years.

1. There's no way to not screw him up; after all that's happened to the galaxy, he only shows up now? What was his excuse for not sticking with the Rebellion / Resistance in the decades since the events of ROTJ? If Leia and the others realized the fight had to go on, why would Lando just vanish? At least when Kenobi left public life, he had the all-important Luke mission as the reason he did not come out of hiding during the 20 year growth/terror of the Empire. Lando's excuse in this case? Ehh...

 

2 & 6. We all know certain fans cannot stand anyone mentioning the following, but making Rey the ultimate, perfect Mary Sue right out the gates makes her boring because there's nowhere for her to go in terms of growth. The reason Luke was one of the most successful of the "Hero's Journey" film characters was that his pattern was believable from film to film, and though he was growing in power, he suffered personal disasters along the way, in addition to carrying the weight / fate of a galaxy on his shoulders. That's not Rey. The Disney/Lucasfilm PTB had their agenda to push, and as a result, Rey already gets everything she desires and pays no price at all. What does that offer as a point of interest in episode 9?

 

The reason why I tie her to your point #6 is that Rey's greatest character development only happened when she shared a journey with Finn; both needed the other to build/support their reason to be, and contrary to the Rey/Kylo Ren shippers, Rey and Finn were the one and only natural relationship in the sequel series--the only foundation of believable romance, despite the forced, unwelcome Rose nonsense in TLJ.

 

Rey & Finn were/are obvious victims of lost identity/purpose who gave the other long needed emotional fulfilment and served as inspiration for the other. That removes the Finn/"fanboy" charge, as he seems to be motivated by genuine love--the opposite of his out-of-nowhere, shoehorned "care" for Rose aboard the Falcon.

 

7. Agreed. Poe was supposed to be this trilogy's Solo, but comes off like yet another in a series of cheap Han clones created over the decades, like Rik Duel (from the 80s Marvel run) to Dash Rendar (Shadows), both proving that Han was not a "type" to be cloned.

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Well at least you have a good attitude about it.

 

Can we fight about the term Mary Sue being inherently mysoginist? Nahhhj, that would be pointless and I'm alreading Poe and Madison. There's only so many never-wrongs I can deal with at once.

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That;s the one complaint I really don't get. TLJ's major plot points went pretty much exactly as I would have expected after watching TFA.

Hey Choc, is that you in your profile pic? If so you don't look like how I imagined.

 

Yes, its me. Is that you in yours?

 

Lol... no my one is a drawing I did from my student days.

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Can we fight about the term Mary Sue being inherently misogynist?

Depends on context! Would you have that debate if Mary Sue was referred to with a male name, like say Gary Stu? I doubt it. Just because the name is female doesn't necessarily make it inherently misogynist. Tank, I am going to assume you came to that conclusion because of rabid anti-ST youtubers or message board posters, and in that context you would not be wrong. I've watched a fair amount of those videos and had to just stop because... well, the obvious. But when referring to this particular thread, I can't agree with you.

 

The term itself originates from Star Trek fan fic parody, written by a woman no less, that describes a satirical character who is too perfect and always has the answers or abilities to resolve situations because plot. People later started seeing characters like that in actual movies and writing, and started making the comparison, and not out of misogynist impulse, but they saw hack writing of hack characters. If being used to merely describe a character like how Rey has been depicted in the ST, in Justus' post, that's not being misogynist, that's calling the character out for what it is.

 

Show me where he was wrong on his description on Rey in the post above, Tank. Where is there to go with her, as I questioned? Even if she and the good guys win or lose, what dynamic change can truly be done with Rey, as a character? She defeated Kylo in TFA, saved his life in TLJ, she didn't learn anything from Luke because she didn't need to and already is all powerful and has all the knowledge she needs according to Yoda. Hell, she essentially travelled to Ahch TO for no reason, other than to school Luke and tell him how wrong he was. Most importantly, she IS boring. She lacks depth, credibility, and relate-ability for the average person. She has already achieved everything she should only achieve by the third act. Essentially, Rey is Wesley Crusher, when you think about it.

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1. Don't Eff up Lando. Don't wussify him. Don't just give him a glorified cameo only to kill him off.

 

2. Luke: definitely bring him back as a ghost. Have him advise Rey, have him haunt Kylo much like Merlin did with Morgana Le Fay in the film Excalibur.

 

3. Kylo: He needs to be more Vader than Vader. Kylo needs to be basically what Vader-Anakin would have been had he not been defeated and maimed by Obi Wan. All powerful dictator much like the Emperor, and more brutal, but at the same time, the general public thinks he is a benevolent dictator and man of the people. I would like to see him order the First Order to commit attrocities so heinous that some in the First Order are shocked and appalled and some even defect or turn against Kylo. I'd also like to see Kylo "realize" that Vader was weak for turning back to the light in the end and he should no longer idolize him. Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should Kylo be redeemed. Depict the First Order as having completely won and what's left of the Rebels are being hunted down by the First Order, and the Rebellion as a movement, really is about die.

 

4. Rey: Ughh not sure what can be done with her. 2 movies in, and she defeated Kylo physically once, essentially saved his ass in TLJ, and the record is basically Rey=2, Kylo=0. Not sure it would even make sense to see Kylo defeat her at this point. What I DON'T want to see is Reylo. I suppose the logical thing would be to depict her as having mastered her abilities, but then starting to come to the conclusion that maybe SHE needs to walk away from it all, much like Luke did. Maybe she leads a failed mission that gets people killed. Maybe she just looks at the Resistance/Rebellion as too few in number and it cannot make a difference. I don't know. But whatever the cause of crisis, Luke's ghost then advises her not to walk away, and tells her about broom boy and others like him, giving Rey new-found hope that maybe she CAN help topple the First Order by training more jedi.

 

5. Hux: I'd like to see him start out as a reluctant Kylo supporter, but end up as a leader of a faction of the First Order that allies itself with the Rebels (sort of like Damar in Deep Space 9).

 

6. Finn: Finn should go full on rebel war hero and leader, and be a source of inspiration to First Order defectors, and ultimately be instrumental in recruiting/persuading said defectors to take up arms against Kylo. He needs to stop being a Rey fanboy.

 

7. Poe: For me, he's always been just there. Not very interesting to me. Probably just have him become a better leader, maybe supreme commander of the Rebels, who is not as impulsive, without destroying his character.

 

8. Maz: tell us that effing story for another time!

 

9. Kill Leia off in the opening crawl. Allow characters to reference her death in dialogue but sparingly and reveal that Kylo is the one who killed her.

 

10. Absolutely NO DJ!

 

11. Rose: eh, I thought she was OK and I don't get why she is hated. But not sure what can be done with her. Maybe have her and Finn hook up.

 

12. Time Jump! maybe somewhere between 7 to 10 years.

1. There's no way to not screw him up; after all that's happened to the galaxy, he only shows up now? What was his excuse for not sticking with the Rebellion / Resistance in the decades since the events of ROTJ? If Leia and the others realized the fight had to go on, why would Lando just vanish? At least when Kenobi left public life, he had the all-important Luke mission as the reason he did not come out of hiding during the 20 year growth/terror of the Empire. Lando's excuse in this case? Ehh...

What was Han's excuse?

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Can we fight about the term Mary Sue being inherently misogynist?

Depends on context! Would you have that debate if Mary Sue was referred to with a male name, like say Gary Stu? I doubt it. Just because the name is female doesn't necessarily make it inherently misogynist. Tank, I am going to assume you came to that conclusion because of rabid anti-ST youtubers or message board posters, and in that context you would not be wrong. I've watched a fair amount of those videos and had to just stop because... well, the obvious. But when referring to this particular thread, I can't agree with you.

 

The term itself originates from Star Trek fan fic parody, written by a woman no less, that describes a satirical character who is too perfect and always has the answers or abilities to resolve situations because plot. People later started seeing characters like that in actual movies and writing, and started making the comparison, and not out of misogynist impulse, but they saw hack writing of hack characters. If being used to merely describe a character like how Rey has been depicted in the ST, in Justus' post, that's not being misogynist, that's calling the character out for what it is.

 

Show me where he was wrong on his description on Rey in the post above, Tank. Where is there to go with her, as I questioned? Even if she and the good guys win or lose, what dynamic change can truly be done with Rey, as a character? She defeated Kylo in TFA, saved his life in TLJ, she didn't learn anything from Luke because she didn't need to and already is all powerful and has all the knowledge she needs according to Yoda. Hell, she essentially travelled to Ahch TO for no reason, other than to school Luke and tell him how wrong he was. Most importantly, she IS boring. She lacks depth, credibility, and relate-ability for the average person. She has already achieved everything she should only achieve by the third act. Essentially, Rey is Wesley Crusher, when you think about it.

 

Thank you. Well said. Its the default excuse of some SW fans to scream misogyny when Rey is criticized in the face of legitimate examples & comparisons to characters in the same series / basic plotting in creating lead heroes in the Star Wars format, etc.

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