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What Episode IX needs to do to save the ST


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Yeah, I did. Never seen an episode. No idea who Wesley Crusher is.

Then you're not really equipped to have this conversation because you're missing a lot of context.

 

How so? Im saying that I never heard the term. Not that the term is irrelevant or anything. My point was that I think most people have zero idea what a Mary Sue is and that the next generation has far less significance than some would think. Where I lived it aired in the middle of the night on a channel that wasn't even affilated with a network.

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I made an earlier post about this but Ill repeat it because I don't expect anyone to read every post I make.

 

For me Rey's journey is less about her having this power and ability and more about her accepting she has this power and ability.In TFA she tells BB8 she is "nobody". When Maz offers her the saber she literally refuses it and runs away. Now later when the saber flies into her hands she has no choice, she has to defend herself and she uses it.

 

In TLJ she tells Luke "the galaxy needs you". Later when Luke refuses she says about the possibility of Kylo turning back to the good side she says "this could be how we win."

 

She just doesn't get that SHE is how they can win.

If that's what they were going for them they better damn well say it in episode 9. Because right now it's not so obvious. Star Wars isn't known for its subtlety. I mean you have a point but how can we really say that's the case if no one told Rey that in the movie. You got to have her saying that she isn't worthy you got to have a moment where she sees herself back on jakku. Then someone metaphorically smacks her across the face and tells her to snap out of it and she is worthy of all this and that.

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Guest Robin

Laughing at or along with bad entertainment or satire is one thing. And yeah, depending on how its done it could be shitty. I dont think we need examples, pretty sure we can think about how a joke can go too far and understand that.

 

However, Poe, you moved the sticks... as is said. Or maybe I moved the sticks. Or maybe it was that dude. To be really honest this convo is spinning wheels harder than TLJs plot.

 

Using the term Mary Sue to discredit or admonish stories is what the discussion was, I think, yeah, and that is shitty.

 

Also, I have not broadened what the term means by applying it to Batman or Tarzan or Whatever 80s Hardbro Action Hero. Nor Tank equating it to Bond. That is called tit for tat, sauce for the goose... etc.

 

Bond needs to pilot a space shuttle, guess what? He can!

 

Tarzan needs to have the skills of an architect, skateboarder, linguist, Okay!! He can have those.

 

Batman beats everyone because Batman. Okay!

 

Rey needs to use the Force and she does! ****ing Mary Sue.

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With Batman and Bond, they have experience and training. Heck, Batman was literally preparing himself from the day his parents were killed. So I don't buy those characters getting the term any more than Yoda being a "Mary Sue" because he could lift the X-Wing or jump around and swing a lightsaber. Even Luke talks about being a decent pilot in ANH.

 

Anakin is a great example. So is Kirk from Abrams-Trek (the guy is a cadet who is so awesome they just make him a captain?). I have never watched or read anything Tarzan, but he sounds like a good example.

 

Wade from Ready Player One: better than a team of trained researchers at solving mysteries that involve research and knowing trivia.

 

Starlord - The guy is a walking punchline who happens to be awesome at everything

 

Harry Potter - ALWAYS has the ability to beat adult wizards even though he's only a so-so student while studying magic.

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Yea but how would you show her learning to believe in herself if she never addresses that she has a problem in the first place.

How does she not address it? She literally runs away from the lightsaber in TFA. She literally runs away from the fact that this power is inside her. Do you need her to actually say "I do not believe in myself"?

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Rey needs to use the Force and she does! ****ing Mary Sue.

 

I think it's been explained many times that it isn't just Rey using the Force. It was that she gained her powers without any struggle, seemingly out of nowhere. It was that her background is of a scavenger her whole life, presumably with little piloting experience, and she hops in the Millennium Falcon for the first time. Finn becomes pretty much obsessed with Rey the moment he sees her. Kylo Ren becomes obsessed with her the moment he hears about "a girl". Han lets her help fly the Falcon. Rey fixes the Falcon when even Han has difficulty. Leia runs up to hug her, ignoring Chewbacca, in mourning for Han even though she's never seen the girl in her life.

 

In the case of Rey, the term Mary Sue applies.

 

 

 

Bond needs to pilot a space shuttle, guess what? He can!

 

Yeah, and that was a jump the shark moment for Moore's run as Bond. People don't like Bond being able to do those things and when he does, the movies are rated generally poorly.

 

People may not have called it a Mary Sue, but they most certainly did call it ridiculous.

 

 

 

Anakin is a great example.

 

I wouldn't say so. Anakin's Force abilities were largely limited to his use of them as a pilot. Considering the quick-time reaction that comes with racing, it actually makes perfect sense that Anakin's Force skills would manifest in the heat of a race. After all, "clear your mind", "let go", "trust your feelings" have all long been associated with touching the Force for the first time. The need to make instant decisions and accept them without question in a race would be at least as good as Luke learning by being blindfolded. I would consider that perfectly within the accepted canon.

 

And that's pretty much the only thing he has in common. Sure the Jedi want to bring him along because he's so powerful in the Force, but that makes sense and even backs up a line from Ben in Return of the Jedi.

 

 

 

I have never watched or read anything Tarzan, but he sounds like a good example.

 

At one point Tarzan goes back to his parents' ruined home and literally teaches himself how to read English books despite not having learned a human language.

 

It's fair enough.

 

 

 

Starlord - The guy is a walking punchline who happens to be awesome at everything

 

I'm not sure how he qualifies.

 

 

 

Harry Potter - ALWAYS has the ability to beat adult wizards even though he's only a so-so student while studying magic.

 

No he doesn't. He's only defeated adult wizards through circumstances and luck.

 

Sorcerer's Stone: He survives as a baby and in the climax because of magical protection from his mother sacrificing himself, nothing Harry did.

 

Chamber of Secrets: Didn't defeat any adult wizards, he went against a manifestation of a young Tom Riddle and won by stabbing a book.

 

Prisoner of Azkaban: Didn't defeat any adult wizards, just snuck around thanks to a plot device Hermione was holding.

 

Goblet of Fire: Harry survives thanks to both his and Voldermort's wands possessing the same core (Fawke's feathers). Something, I'll point out that was set up in the first book.

 

Order of the Phoenix: Adult wizards swoop in and save Harry and his friends.

 

Half-Blood Prince: Harry is magically frozen in place during the climax and just watches Snape kill Dumbledore and walk off.

 

Deathly Hallows: The Elder Wand recognizes Harry as its master and kills Voldemort instead.

 

In addition, a lot of people don't like Harry. He's shown to not even be the best wizard even among his friends (Hermione being much better). He often falls into traps. And he has teenager moments of anger and spite.

 

Wade and Abrams' Kirk I won't argue with.

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Also, doesn't Rey fail when she turns herself into Kylo? Isn't her goal there to turn Kylo back to the good side? Last I checked he doesn't do that. So she doesn't achieve her goal there which is failure and she learns a lesson that shows when she shuts the Falcon door on Kylo at the end of the movie. She learned that he just cannot be saved.

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Also, doesn't Rey fail when she turns herself into Kylo? Isn't her goal there to turn Kylo back to the good side? Last I checked he doesn't do that. So she doesn't achieve her goal there which is failure and she learns a lesson that shows when she shuts the Falcon door on Kylo at the end of the movie. She learned that he just cannot be saved.

I should make clear that the term doesn't apply nearly as much to Rey in The Last Jedi. Johnson did a much better job with her character.

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It's funny how you call me reactionary, and yet that is exactly what your post is doing. Read my post again and pay attention. I was careful to say the TERM May Sue was misogynist, not that anyone using it automatically was one.

 

Ughh, I am not going to go through all that. Didn't you just get done yelling at somebody for doing the exact same thing?

 

But, to sum it all up for everyone, because fanbros appropriated a legit term that existed before the first Star Wars movie, only fanbros use the term Mary Sue. Henceforth, anyone caught using the term Mary Sue, must be an alt-right girl hater, and it is equivalent to waving a Confederate flag, while mumbling "heritage not hate." There is absolutely no way anyone would have a problem with the Rey character, unless they are a misogynist.

 

Great to know the universe is so simple and binary.

 

This.

 

The reactionary of this day sees any analysis of a ridiculously flawless character like Rey as the result of the abused charge of misogyny--the default position designed to shut out/shut down rational discussion. Its amusing, for all the false charges of neverending misogyny, one of the finger-pointers should explain how long before this era--in films produced in inarguably more oppressive years for women (the 1970s), cinema had great, strong female movie characters who succeeded in realistic ways--through facing adversity, engaging the problem(s) and overcoming it all without being a Mary Sue to any degree, while Mary Sues need to be n films in the second decade of the following century. Characters like the titular Norma Rae, (based on real life heroine Crystal Lee Sutton), Kimberly Wells in The China Syndrome, Ripley in Alien and others, including--yes--Leia in 1977's Star Wars were not be-all, out-of-the-gates perfect characters. They were realistic, honestly heroic in the struggle and did not need the weak, modem day handling of a character as seen with Rey.

 

I doubt any of the most hotheaded Rey defenders will have much (of any value) to offer, as they are less concerned with a relatable, realistic hero's journey (or one in keeping with the Lucas Star Wars tradition), and more about the politics which walks hand-in-hand with the urge to scream "misogynist" as their would-be silver bullet in discussions.

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This won't happen, but what if IX went really, really dark.

 

Kylo is obsessed with Rey, if they can't work together then she has to die. He is still conflicted and he becomes convinced that Rey is the light that needs to be snuffed out which will end this conflict and bring him peace. Which he just doesn't understand is not possible with the Dark Side.

 

Two third of the way through the movie is the big Rey-Kylo duel. It goes on and Kylo eventually wins, killing Rey. However as I said, he can never quell the torment inside of him. It's impossible. He eventually comes to this realization. He figures out the one thing in his grandfathers life worth emulating is the end of his grandfathers life. Kylo decides to actively seek redemption.

 

The Resistance is on some mission to blow something up or whatever. Kylo decides to help them, however Kylo is not only unable to help them his actions lead to the Resistance being found out and their mission failing. During all of this Kylo is killed. He can't be redeemed, his life of evil is beyond it.

 

It would be so tragic, that when Ben finally realized how to fix himself it actually is too late.

 

Then going forward if tehy decide to make a X-XII trilogy it would be totally unencumbured by the Skywalkers and their legacy. You'd have this totalitarian First Order dominating the Galaxy and you'd have force users discovering their powers. Only their is no one to guide them. No Obi Wan living down the street, no Yoda to seek to out, no Luke sitting on an island to go teach them lessons.

 

I realize this will never happen, Im not even saying I'd want it to happen. Just throwing some what ifs out there.

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That's all good. But Kylo is not after peace. He knows the dark side doesn't offer peace. He wants to crush his weaknesses. His empathy for Rey and his feelings for her could be seen as a weakness so that would be his motivation. Finding peace is not his prerogative though.

 

I doubt Disney has the stones to go Shakespearean tragedy on it though.

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Well, peace or whatever. Peace isnt the right word, you are right. I think he is trying to find power and he thinks acquiring more and more will eventually quench this need for more. But that desire can never be quenched.

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Sure, and brutally murdering Rey and gaining nothing from it but heartache could be a good thing to help him see the light. But again... Darksiders get off on pain so maybe he'd be happy to kill her. I know where you are going with the gist of it though, and I like it.

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Guest Robin

Okay. Batman, Bond and Harry Potter are not Mary Sues because:

 

Tragedy

Luck

Training

 

Most of us know their stories; heartbreaking and heroic men doing awesome man stuff for the betterment of mankind (or at least certain flags).

 

Rey at a young age is adandoned by her parents, into poverty and perhaps slavery, at the very least its a harder day to day life than Ive ever known. What Reys life was like before being abandoned, we dont know. What we do know is that, after years of being on Jakku, Rey has developed keen physical and quick witted mental prowess. Rey is an adventurer, scavenger, likely a tinkerer. Rey is also lucky... wait, theres no such thing as luck (a famous scoundrel once said). Rey is supported and guided by the Force in that exact same manner as all the other Force heroes in this universe... although maybe a little more explicitly visiony... the other heroes before this usually just drifted off mid-sentence and then said, ohhh, I just saw something bad like millions of children crying because they were being force fed tuna fish and banana flavored ice cream. But okay, okay, I concede... Rey is a girl, so she is a Mary Sue.

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Rey is definitely not a Mary Sue. My boss is actually a one month old little girl. When she first started we all had our doubts, but she quickly proved her worth. Most of us had grown past pacifiers, but she made them cool again. There was a lot team building going on.

 

And while it’s strange to change your boss’s diaper, and hard to hear her cry when she doesn’t have her favorite toy, you can’t help but respect her vision and guidance. All of her days days of wisdom have treated her well, and we all benefit from it.

 

Perhaps the biggest life lesson I’ve learned from Cynthia, (we call her CinCin, which is the only way she can make a poopy), is that we have been doing things the wrong way and are blessed to have to have someone like her to show us all how to be the best workers we can be and be better human beings in general.

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Yea but how would you show her learning to believe in herself if she never addresses that she has a problem in the first place.

How does she not address it? She literally runs away from the lightsaber in TFA. She literally runs away from the fact that this power is inside her. Do you need her to actually say "I do not believe in myself"?
No I meant more like address the problem as in 'I realized I don't believe in myself enough. But now im gonna work on it.' her problem isn't vocalized in the story. Star Wars usually talks everything through, from will Luke prove himself as a Jedi to will Anakin fulfill the prophecy.

 

We're going onto the third movie and still nothing. These characters are two dimensional and it's frustrating

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Rey at a young age is adandoned by her parents, into poverty and perhaps slavery, at the very least its a harder day to day life than Ive ever known.

Easily overcoming a tragic backstory is an associated aspect of the trope, not a shield against it. You'll notice that no one said Batman isn't a Mary Sue because his parent died or because Harry wasn't because he was mentally abused by the Dursleys for 10 years.

 

 

 

What Reys life was like before being abandoned, we dont know. What we do know is that, after years of being on Jakku, Rey has developed keen physical and quick witted mental prowess. Rey is an adventurer, scavenger, likely a tinkerer.

 

You're presenting an exhibit against your case here. How did she develop physical abilities that allowed her to take down a trained Stormtrooper without difficulty? How would stripping a hulk give her tinkering skills to fix the Falcon better than Han? How would she learn how to fly so well she could jump into the Falcon for the first time and outfly TIE fighters? When Luke did it, they made sure to foreshadow all the way back to his first conversation with Ben that Luke was already an accomplished pilot.

 

By all rights, Rey's time on Jakku should have left her near primal in her skills. Her fighting should have been wild. Unless she took technical correspondence at night, she shouldn't have had such mechanical skills. Why would she know BB-8's language? Again, living alone with no similar droids around. But, even though the skill is rare to the point that only Threepio had demonstrated it before, Rey can do it.

 

 

 

Rey is also lucky... wait, theres no such thing as luck (a famous scoundrel once said). Rey is supported and guided by the Force in that exact same manner as all the other Force heroes in this universe... although maybe a little more explicitly visiony... the other heroes before this usually just drifted off mid-sentence and then said, ohhh, I just saw something bad like millions of children crying because they were being force fed tuna fish and banana flavored ice cream.

 

Not sure what point is being made here.

 

 

 

But okay, okay, I concede... Rey is a girl, so she is a Mary Sue.

 

No, that is the assumption of bad faith that you made for purposes of a strawman.

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Guest Robin

It is fascinating how much you strive to be right, Poe. In some ways I have to smile, your dogged nature is the exact thing I tried to satirize for years (both because I felt it, and it disturbed me to see play out when I read it from others). You are so certain of being right you cant follow that I literally listed the points made by you and others which were used to prove those males arent Mary Sues. I then applied those exact points to Rey, showing the absurdity of the Mary Sue argument, only for you to conclude I had created the entire argument.

 

Afterthought: The explicit details which you are demanding of Rey goes against the Chekhovian show dont tell aspect of storytelling, which seems expressly important to the visual medium. We see evidence of the things you demand in the very nature of Reys life on Jakku and also knowing it is the universe of Star Wars.

 

eg. To essentially pause the narrative to satisfy a need to establish her ability to defeat a soldier* prior to seeing her defeating a soldier could be useless, a waste, or even change the story completely. Such as becoming a Karate Kid or Sword in the Stone coming of age thing instead of a pick up and go high octane adventure. Granted, it can be done, even in an adventure, and I too have often argued something like if only they had this one line of dialogue... but that doesnt just make a character a Mary Sue because your specific expositional needs were not met.

 

*literally

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You are so certain of being right you cant follow that I literally listed the points made by you and others which were used to prove those males arent Mary Sues. I then applied those exact points to Rey, showing the absurdity of the Mary Sue argument, only for you to conclude I had created the entire argument.

 

Ah, so that's what the luck stuff was about. No wonder it didn't make sense. I'm sorry to tell you, but, like tragic backstory, no one said having luck was a shield either. That wasn't my point with Harry. It was that he didn't do it himself. It was a series of circumstances, of which only the final one (at the end of the hero's journey when he'd passed all the tests, absorbed all the wisdom, and reached full maturity) did Harry know about in advance, that let Harry escape with his life.

 

Do we really think Harry passing out in Sorcerer's Stone only to wake up and find out that his mother's love saved him is the same as Rey wielding a lightsaber for the first time in her life after only touching the Force for the first time like an hour ago and suddenly overpowering Kylo Ren? Of course not.

 

The simple fact is that Harry is consistently described by other characters, and is consistently portrayed, as an above-average but hardly exceptional student. The only flash of genius he shows is in flying his broom. In Goblet of Fire, the hidden villain even laments that Harry is so far beneath the other Tri-Wizard champions, that he had to personally assist Harry at each and every step just to drag him his worthless butt across the finish line to make his plan work.

 

No, the niggling trope of Harry Potter wasn't him being a Mary Sue, it was an over-reliance on deus ex machinas.

 

So you have included two exceptions that no one provided. I already pointed out why a tragic backstory doesn't count. And that leaves only training. Something that Rey's background suggests shouldn't apply.

 

Sorry, for the confusion. It was difficult to follow your post owing to your trying to tear down claims that no one made.

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I feel like if you are complaining point by point about how Rey got her powers to the point of analyzing if her fighting style against Finn is realistic you are just missing the point of the movie. It's like looking at a great painting with your nose pressed against the canvas. Which is something I feel alot of Star Wars fans do nowadays.

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