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What Episode IX needs to do to save the ST


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1. Don't Eff up Lando. Don't wussify him. Don't just give him a glorified cameo only to kill him off.

 

2. Luke: definitely bring him back as a ghost. Have him advise Rey, have him haunt Kylo much like Merlin did with Morgana Le Fay in the film Excalibur.

 

3. Kylo: He needs to be more Vader than Vader. Kylo needs to be basically what Vader-Anakin would have been had he not been defeated and maimed by Obi Wan. All powerful dictator much like the Emperor, and more brutal, but at the same time, the general public thinks he is a benevolent dictator and man of the people. I would like to see him order the First Order to commit attrocities so heinous that some in the First Order are shocked and appalled and some even defect or turn against Kylo. I'd also like to see Kylo "realize" that Vader was weak for turning back to the light in the end and he should no longer idolize him. Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should Kylo be redeemed. Depict the First Order as having completely won and what's left of the Rebels are being hunted down by the First Order, and the Rebellion as a movement, really is about die.

 

4. Rey: Ughh not sure what can be done with her. 2 movies in, and she defeated Kylo physically once, essentially saved his ass in TLJ, and the record is basically Rey=2, Kylo=0. Not sure it would even make sense to see Kylo defeat her at this point. What I DON'T want to see is Reylo. I suppose the logical thing would be to depict her as having mastered her abilities, but then starting to come to the conclusion that maybe SHE needs to walk away from it all, much like Luke did. Maybe she leads a failed mission that gets people killed. Maybe she just looks at the Resistance/Rebellion as too few in number and it cannot make a difference. I don't know. But whatever the cause of crisis, Luke's ghost then advises her not to walk away, and tells her about broom boy and others like him, giving Rey new-found hope that maybe she CAN help topple the First Order by training more jedi.

 

5. Hux: I'd like to see him start out as a reluctant Kylo supporter, but end up as a leader of a faction of the First Order that allies itself with the Rebels (sort of like Damar in Deep Space 9).

 

6. Finn: Finn should go full on rebel war hero and leader, and be a source of inspiration to First Order defectors, and ultimately be instrumental in recruiting/persuading said defectors to take up arms against Kylo. He needs to stop being a Rey fanboy.

 

7. Poe: For me, he's always been just there. Not very interesting to me. Probably just have him become a better leader, maybe supreme commander of the Rebels, who is not as impulsive, without destroying his character.

 

8. Maz: tell us that effing story for another time!

 

9. Kill Leia off in the opening crawl. Allow characters to reference her death in dialogue but sparingly and reveal that Kylo is the one who killed her.

 

10. Absolutely NO DJ!

 

11. Rose: eh, I thought she was OK and I don't get why she is hated. But not sure what can be done with her. Maybe have her and Finn hook up.

 

12. Time Jump! maybe somewhere between 7 to 10 years.

1. There's no way to not screw him up; after all that's happened to the galaxy, he only shows up now? What was his excuse for not sticking with the Rebellion / Resistance in the decades since the events of ROTJ? If Leia and the others realized the fight had to go on, why would Lando just vanish? At least when Kenobi left public life, he had the all-important Luke mission as the reason he did not come out of hiding during the 20 year growth/terror of the Empire. Lando's excuse in this case? Ehh...

What was Han's excuse?

 

Falling out with his wife, the serious issues with his son, etc. That's as close to a realistic motive for someone to leave what used to be "their world" to be found in-universe.

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Can we fight about the term Mary Sue being inherently mysoginist? Nahhhj, that would be pointless and I'm alreading Poe and Madison. There's only so many never-wrongs I can deal with at once.

The problem with this is that the poster child and biggest codifer of the trope since the original Mary Sue fan fiction is Wesley Chrusher.

 

I would argue the second biggest example is Anikan in Phantom Menace.

 

It's called Mary Sue because the character in that fan fiction happened to have that name and happened to be female. But it's a label, not a name at this point, and thus is gender neutral. Its a label, not a name. Nobody's thinking they're smoking a woman when they smoke a Brown Betty. It's a label.

 

But people with no capacity to handle nuance hear a female sounding label applied to a female character and lose their minds.

 

Nobody was saying Mary Sue was misandrist when the actors who played Wesley Chrusher and Anikan were hounded out of acting by thousands of shitheel fans.

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Can we fight about the term Mary Sue being inherently misogynist?

Depends on context! Would you have that debate if Mary Sue was referred to with a male name, like say Gary Stu? I doubt it. Just because the name is female doesn't necessarily make it inherently misogynist.

 

Actually, you are making my exact point. There is no male term for a Mary Sue. There isn't a common agreed upon term for it. In fact, when I googled it, it saw three different answers. When there is a male character who's abilities are beyond the scope of their experiences very rarely do people cry foul. James Bond is the biggest Mary Sue in the history of cinema, but there's 50 years worth of Bond movies and no one ever called him on it.

 

My point isn't that Mary Sues don't exist. Lazy writers have been handing their characters easy denouement for a century, but it's only when it's WOMAN characters do we need to categorize it and label it because OMG THAT'S NOT REALISTIC!

 

Te term itself originates from Star Trek fan fic parody, written by a woman no less, that describes a satirical character who is too perfect and always has the answers or abilities to resolve situations because plot. People later started seeing characters like that in actual movies and writing, and started making the comparison, and not out of misogynist impulse, but they saw hack writing of hack characters.

 

Like I said above, it's a long standing problem from lazy writers. I know the origin well, it was also a huge part of RPG culture with people making super characters (OMG I:'M A JEDI TURNED BOUNTY HUNTER WHO ALSO SMUGGLES!)

 

And forgive the crass reference-- but there's also people who like to cling to the fact that the Confederate flag doesn't HAVE to stand for racism and being pro-slavery... but the context of the time can shift meaning, I used to use the term Mary Sue back in writing workshops all the time, but once it became part of FanBro culture I quit using it post-haste.

 

You say you often feel lumped in with people like that for not liking TLJ, well one way to delineate yourself from them is to avoid using their vocabulary.

 

If being used to merely describe a character like how Rey has been depicted in the ST, in Justus' post, that's not being misogynist, that's calling the character out for what it is.

 

The entire basis for thinking of Rey as that type of character is based on one very simple thing-- everyone is using Luke as a benchmark. Somehow, Luke's journey in the OT is the benchmark, and any deviation from it is automatically wrong.

 

Everything people compkain about Rey is 100% believable if you accept one simple thing: Rey has the potential to be more powerful than Luke. You don't have to like that notion, but if that is the intent of the ST, nothing she does is out of line. Not saying that's a good or bad choice, just that the basis of calling her a Mary Sue comes from comparing her to what we've seen before.

 

And I've said this a million times-- but EVERYONE in Star Wars is a Mary Sue. This is mythic storytelling. Myths are not told about normal people. Myths are told about people who become extraordinary when faced with adversity.

 

We're never shown how a farm boy can hop into an X-Wing and suddenly be the best pilot ever. We never see Luke training to be a pilot. We accept Solo is an expert gambler. Star Wars is full of characters doing amazing things, and they can do those things because we're told an aside that they simply can do the thing ("I hear you've become quite a good pilot yourself.")

 

Why is Rey held to a different standard?

 

Show me where he was wrong on his description on Rey in the post above, Tank. Where is there to go with her, as I questioned? Even if she and the good guys win or lose, what dynamic change can truly be done with Rey, as a character? She defeated Kylo in TFA, saved his life in TLJ, she didn't learn anything from Luke because she didn't need to and already is all powerful and has all the knowledge she needs according to Yoda.

Just because you can't think of the possibilities, doesn't mean they don't exist. Additionally, these criticisms are subjective. I can see why people would have them., but I don't.

 

Hell, she essentially travelled to Ahch TO for no reason, other than to school Luke and tell him how wrong he was.

Any myth will tell you the journey is more important than the destination. Again, because she didn't do what Luke did in ESB it is somehow wrong. Which is ironic considering everyone who pre-hated on the film wanted to be made that it might be too much like ESB.

 

Most importantly, she IS boring. She lacks depth, credibility, and relate-ability for the average person. She has already achieved everything she should only achieve by the third act. Essentially, Rey is Wesley Crusher, when you think about it.

Again, opinion, not an arguable fact.

 

Thank you. Well said. Its the default excuse of some SW fans to scream misogyny when Rey is criticized in the face of legitimate examples & comparisons to characters in the same series / basic plotting in creating lead heroes in the Star Wars format, etc.

It's funny how you call me reactionary, and yet that is exactly what your post is doing. Read my post again and pay attention. I was careful to say the TERM May Sue was misogynist, not that anyone using it automatically was one.

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The ST isn't your normal unstoppable bad guy needs to be overcome by a good guy type story. Rey's struggle isn't in terms of gaining the power to defeat Kylo. It's in terms of accepting she has this power. In TFA she herself says she is a nobody. When Maz offers her the saber she actually runs away. In TLJ she goes to Luke, telling him that the Resistance needs Luke back. She then says that Kylo turning back could be how they win. She just can't accept that SHE is the person who can be why they win. Her story is more along those lines.

 

At the same time the story is just as much about Kylo as it is Rey. She gets more time because you are always going to spend more time with the good guys than the bad guys but Kylo is equally as important. He's not just a bad guy who needs to be overcome. Their fight in the first movie doesn't only exist to show Rey defeating Kylo, it also exists to show Kylo's failure. His very first scene of TLJ Snoke calls him out for this failure. Kylo's attempt to overcome Rey is just as important as Rey's journey.

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1.And forgive the crass reference-- but there's also people who like to cling to the fact that the Confederate flag doesn't HAVE to stand for racism and being pro-slavery... but the context of the time can shift meaning, I used to use the term Mary Sue back in writing workshops all the time, but once it became part of FanBro culture I quit using it post-haste.

 

You say you often feel lumped in with people like that for not liking TLJ, well one way to delineate yourself from them is to avoid using their vocabulary.

2. The entire basis for thinking of Rey as that type of character is based on one very simple thing-- everyone is using Luke as a benchmark. Somehow, Luke's journey in the OT is the benchmark, and any deviation from it is automatically wrong.

 

 

 

3. And I've said this a million times-- but EVERYONE in Star Wars is a Mary Sue. This is mythic storytelling. Myths are not told about normal people. Myths are told about people who become extraordinary when faced with adversity.

 

 

 

4. It's funny how you call me reactionary, and yet that is exactly what your post is doing. Read my post again and pay attention. I was careful to say the TERM May Sue was misogynist, not that anyone using it automatically was one.

 

 

1.There is no "their vocabulary" when using the proper description. You seem to be leaning toward the idea that Mary Sue is some broadly accepted "weapon" of misogynists, when it is perfectly acceptable to describe a type of wildly unrealistic character.

 

2. Luke is the hero Lucas decided to start with, and his is the most heroic journey of the entire franchise, so for a series where--according to Lucas himself--things (character, situations,etc.) rhyme like poetry, it only stands to reason that audiences would use the franchise hero's journey as a reference / compare to the force-using heroine of the sequel series (just as Anakin was compared to Luke).

 

3."EVERYONE in Star Wars is a Mary Sue". That is nonsense. The very definition of a Mary Sue--at least according to the dreaded Wikipedia is as follows:

 

"A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience, and usually are able through some means to upstage the main protagonist of the story, such as by saving the hero."

 

That is the polar opposite of Luke--who was introduced as a young man who did not automatically take charge of anything, suffered assault (twice on Tattooine), did not learn to use his inherited power to its full potential, and barely tapped into it (with Obi-Wan's influence) in his final conflict during the Death Star attack, while nearly being blown to bits on more than one occasion during the attack. Even in the opening of ESB, some three, in-universe years later, he's attacked, rendered unconscious and nearly becomes a meal for the Wampa--barely escaping with his struggle to use the force. We see how his duel on Cloud City turned out, and was a step away from death at the hands of Palpatine, despite how much Luke had grown since E4.

 

On the other end, Rey--out of the gates, beats up a trained stormtrooper (Finn), pilots the Falcon as well as the person who was supposed to be an off the chart talent behind its controls (Han), and with no training, uses a Jedi mind trick, and defeats a guy in lightsaber combat who was trained by one of the greatest of all Jedi heroes and a Sith. No training. No struggle. adversity or realistic growth whatsoever.

 

4. Guy, don't go there. Words carrying some inflammatory meaning are not loosely applied without effect. When one hurls the charge of "misogyny" in a conversation, you are not posting in an abstract sense--you're only responding to an individual, and thus hanging a charge on them for their statement or belief. It no different than saying a certain term is racist after someone posted the term in question, then claiming you're not referring to anyone as a racist. You do not get to separate the accusation of you deliberately using utterly negative charges against an individual you were so obviously responding to.

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You are missing the story though, or at least part of the point. Up to this point in Star Wars power has been hereditary or passed down through elitist institutions. The Jedi literally take children from their "average" families and bring them to stay in their beautifully lavish temple and pass down their knowledge only to those that they themselves deem worthy of receiving this knowledge. Taking it even further the most power Force users pretty much have to come from the same family that was basically spawned from the Messiah.

 

The point of this is that anyone can be a Jedi. You don't need to be the child of descendant of the Messiah. You don't even need to be chosen as a baby and brought to live among this super elite class of Jedi. You can actually be a nobody, grow up in poverty. Not grow up like that but super secret have this incredible bloodline. You can be anyone, you can truly be at the bottom of society and end up with all this power.

 

It's a great message and an important one. And if you are gonna sit and parse the rate at which Rey gets her powers you are totally gonna miss that point. Rey doesn't need formal training, she doesnt need to be the daughter of anyone famous, she doesn't have to go to Jedi space Harvard to be taught.

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Guest Robin

Wesley totally checks off a lot of indulgent writer boxes, but he also fucked up stuff for the crew several times and ultimately ended up failing out of Starfleet to go play roadie to a Q Cover Band. As for the male term for Mary Sue, it does exist, its Batman.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

 

 

Can we fight about the term Mary Sue being inherently misogynist?

Depends on context! Would you have that debate if Mary Sue was referred to with a male name, like say Gary Stu? I doubt it. Just because the name is female doesn't necessarily make it inherently misogynist.

 

Actually, you are making my exact point. There is no male term for a Mary Sue. There isn't a common agreed upon term for it. In fact, when I googled it, it saw three different answers. When there is a male character who's abilities are beyond the scope of their experiences very rarely do people cry foul. James Bond is the biggest Mary Sue in the history of cinema, but there's 50 years worth of Bond movies and no one ever called him on it.

 

My point isn't that Mary Sues don't exist. Lazy writers have been handing their characters easy denouement for a century, but it's only when it's WOMAN characters do we need to categorize it and label it because OMG THAT'S NOT REALISTIC!

 

Te term itself originates from Star Trek fan fic parody, written by a woman no less, that describes a satirical character who is too perfect and always has the answers or abilities to resolve situations because plot. People later started seeing characters like that in actual movies and writing, and started making the comparison, and not out of misogynist impulse, but they saw hack writing of hack characters.

 

Like I said above, it's a long standing problem from lazy writers. I know the origin well, it was also a huge part of RPG culture with people making super characters (OMG I:'M A JEDI TURNED BOUNTY HUNTER WHO ALSO SMUGGLES!)

 

And forgive the crass reference-- but there's also people who like to cling to the fact that the Confederate flag doesn't HAVE to stand for racism and being pro-slavery... but the context of the time can shift meaning, I used to use the term Mary Sue back in writing workshops all the time, but once it became part of FanBro culture I quit using it post-haste.

 

You say you often feel lumped in with people like that for not liking TLJ, well one way to delineate yourself from them is to avoid using their vocabulary.

 

If being used to merely describe a character like how Rey has been depicted in the ST, in Justus' post, that's not being misogynist, that's calling the character out for what it is.

 

The entire basis for thinking of Rey as that type of character is based on one very simple thing-- everyone is using Luke as a benchmark. Somehow, Luke's journey in the OT is the benchmark, and any deviation from it is automatically wrong.

 

Everything people compkain about Rey is 100% believable if you accept one simple thing: Rey has the potential to be more powerful than Luke. You don't have to like that notion, but if that is the intent of the ST, nothing she does is out of line. Not saying that's a good or bad choice, just that the basis of calling her a Mary Sue comes from comparing her to what we've seen before.

 

And I've said this a million times-- but EVERYONE in Star Wars is a Mary Sue. This is mythic storytelling. Myths are not told about normal people. Myths are told about people who become extraordinary when faced with adversity.

 

We're never shown how a farm boy can hop into an X-Wing and suddenly be the best pilot ever. We never see Luke training to be a pilot. We accept Solo is an expert gambler. Star Wars is full of characters doing amazing things, and they can do those things because we're told an aside that they simply can do the thing ("I hear you've become quite a good pilot yourself.")

 

Why is Rey held to a different standard?

 

Show me where he was wrong on his description on Rey in the post above, Tank. Where is there to go with her, as I questioned? Even if she and the good guys win or lose, what dynamic change can truly be done with Rey, as a character? She defeated Kylo in TFA, saved his life in TLJ, she didn't learn anything from Luke because she didn't need to and already is all powerful and has all the knowledge she needs according to Yoda.

Just because you can't think of the possibilities, doesn't mean they don't exist. Additionally, these criticisms are subjective. I can see why people would have them., but I don't.

 

Hell, she essentially travelled to Ahch TO for no reason, other than to school Luke and tell him how wrong he was.

Any myth will tell you the journey is more important than the destination. Again, because she didn't do what Luke did in ESB it is somehow wrong. Which is ironic considering everyone who pre-hated on the film wanted to be made that it might be too much like ESB.

 

Most importantly, she IS boring. She lacks depth, credibility, and relate-ability for the average person. She has already achieved everything she should only achieve by the third act. Essentially, Rey is Wesley Crusher, when you think about it.

Again, opinion, not an arguable fact.

 

Thank you. Well said. Its the default excuse of some SW fans to scream misogyny when Rey is criticized in the face of legitimate examples & comparisons to characters in the same series / basic plotting in creating lead heroes in the Star Wars format, etc.

It's funny how you call me reactionary, and yet that is exactly what your post is doing. Read my post again and pay attention. I was careful to say the TERM May Sue was misogynist, not that anyone using it automatically was one.

 

Ughh, I am not going to go through all that. Didn't you just get done yelling at somebody for doing the exact same thing?

 

But, to sum it all up for everyone, because fanbros appropriated a legit term that existed before the first Star Wars movie, only fanbros use the term Mary Sue. Henceforth, anyone caught using the term Mary Sue, must be an alt-right girl hater, and it is equivalent to waving a Confederate flag, while mumbling "heritage not hate." There is absolutely no way anyone would have a problem with the Rey character, unless they are a misogynist.

 

Great to know the universe is so simple and binary.

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Not at all what I said, dude.

 

Simple version: the term has roots that have always been shakey, and I think it is interesting to note that it came up to describe women when there have always been make characters who get a pass for similar qualities.

 

It's a term being championed by MRA fanbros, so I chose to stop using it, and I'm trying to encourage others to do the same.

 

I think it's nightly break time again for me as friends and enemies alike are saying my points make no sense. Given that my job is writing stories, this troubling to hear.

 

I don't need this shit ruining my entire day because never-wrongs gotta never-wrong.

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Simple version: the term has roots that have always been shakey, and I think it is interesting to note that it came up to describe women when there have always been make characters who get a pass for similar qualities.

 

It's origin is a parody fanfic written by a woman. The etymology of why the female version has a consensus and the male version does not is pretty simple. The male version just doesn't have as concrete an origin, so a few variations became popular.

 

For what it's worth, I don't believe Bond counts. Bond is certainly a wish-fulfillment character, but he is also a seasoned veteran who was trained for his job. For the most part, he stays within the realm of that expertise, not suddenly being able to do Q's job better than him or anything like that. There were a few things stretched it, like Brosnan being able to pilot a Soviet-era fighter and some campy Moore stuff (that specifically haven't aged well), but for the most part, Bond sticks to what we know he's good at. And, even though he always gets the girl, it's not like everyone likes him instantly, sometimes not even the girl.

 

In the same vein, I wouldn't say that overpowered women like Lara Croft, Black Widow, Selene from Underworld, Trinity, or the Bride to name a few in a similar overpowered vein are Mary Sues either.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

Not at all what I said, dude.

 

Simple version: the term has roots that have always been shakey, and I think it is interesting to note that it came up to describe women when there have always been make characters who get a pass for similar qualities.

 

It's a term being championed by MRA fanbros, so I chose to stop using it, and I'm trying to encourage others to do the same.

 

I think it's nightly break time again for me as friends and enemies alike are saying my points make no sense. Given that my job is writing stories, this troubling to hear.

 

I don't need this **** ruining my entire day because never-wrongs gotta never-wrong.

And yet you ignore the simple fact that male characters have been referred to as Mary Sue for years. In fact, there are probably more male characters referred to as such.

 

But I am not here to ruin anyone's day. And since you and I obviously don't agree on this particular topic, let's just drop it.

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Guest Robin

#TeamTank!!! Represent! ;-)

 

Beyond my joking around, I am pretty certain Mary Sue as a tag was coined to shame a female fan of Star Trek when she wrote a story that included herself in it. If that pans out, which I believe it does, it has always been a shitty term used by shitty people.

 

I personally think the term could apply to just so many characters and stories, just like so so many. And easily applied to every single dudebro adored action hero ever written, and probably even truly great literary works like Tarzan. Yeah. Think about it. The term is total bullshit because it can be applied so easily everywhere, yet its only ever applied to shame someones work. Its a tag that can reveal the jealously and dim-wittedness of the user that thinks they are using it with academic merit. In fairness not all that use it are self-consumed self-professed literary masters, but whenever that term is seriously used I always raise an eyebrow at the user.

 

I hate it, if that wasnt obvious.

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I just think it's lazy. I've got a few issues with Rey, mainly TLJ ones. The biggest one is something that was hinted at in TFA not being properly explored (a lot of the others aren't character things). But I'd rather try and articulate those instead of "Mary Mary Sue, where are you?". It's just become brainless shorthand for people who are either incapable or unwilling to have a nuanced discussion about anything.

(and I'm aware that that assertion is somewhat contradictory, but it just annoys so me much in a "Mary Sue? Is that the best you can do?" sense.)

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Beyond my joking around, I am pretty certain Mary Sue as a tag was coined to shame a female fan of Star Trek when she wrote a story that included herself in it. If that pans out, which I believe it does, it has always been a ****ty term used by ****ty people.

 

It was an intentional parody by Paula Smith, so no, it wasn't coined to shame anyone. Here's the original story "A Trekkie's Tale":

 

"Gee, golly, gosh, gloriosky," thought Mary Sue as she stepped on the bridge of the Enterprise. "Here I am, the youngest lieutenant in the fleet - only fifteen and a half years old." Captain Kirk came up to her.

 

"Oh, Lieutenant, I love you madly. Will you come to bed with me?" "Captain! I am not that kind of girl!" "You're right, and I respect you for it. Here, take over the ship for a minute while I go get some coffee for us." Mr. Spock came onto the bridge. "What are you doing in the command seat, Lieutenant?" "The Captain told me to." "Flawlessly logical. I admire your mind."

 

Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy and Mr. Scott beamed down with Lt. Mary Sue to Rigel XXXVII. They were attacked by green androids and thrown into prison. In a moment of weakness Lt. Mary Sue revealed to Mr. Spock that she too was half Vulcan. Recovering quickly, she sprung the lock with her hairpin and they all got away back to the ship.

 

But back on board, Dr. McCoy and Lt. Mary Sue found out that the men who had beamed down were seriously stricken by the jumping cold robbies , Mary Sue less so. While the four officers languished in Sick Bay, Lt. Mary Sue ran the ship, and ran it so well she received the Nobel Peace Prize, the Vulcan Order of Gallantry and the Tralfamadorian Order of Good Guyhood.

 

However the disease finally got to her and she fell fatally ill. In the Sick Bay as she breathed her last, she was surrounded by Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy, and Mr. Scott, all weeping unashamedly at the loss of her beautiful youth and youthful beauty, intelligence, capability and all around niceness. Even to this day her birthday is a national holiday of the Enterprise.

 

 

 

I personally think the term could apply to just so many characters and stories, just like so so many.

 

The thing is that you're intentionally broadening the meaning to do so. Instead of it being a problem of a flawless character that magically is good at everything and who everyone likes, which is how it's generally used, you're just using it as a broad brush for any character who is awesome.

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She didn't call out anyone specifically. It was more out of frustration of the quality of original characters in fan fiction in general.

 

Here's another parody that is basically complaining about too many skyholes in movies. Basically the same motive. Do you think the person that wrote it is a ****ty person? Heck, in that case they did call out several people's work.

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Not at all what I said, dude.

 

Simple version: the term has roots that have always been shakey, and I think it is interesting to note that it came up to describe women when there have always been make characters who get a pass for similar qualities.

 

It's a term being championed by MRA fanbros, so I chose to stop using it, and I'm trying to encourage others to do the same.

 

I think it's nightly break time again for me as friends and enemies alike are saying my points make no sense. Given that my job is writing stories, this troubling to hear.

 

I don't need this **** ruining my entire day because never-wrongs gotta never-wrong.

I've never heard the term used other than when referring to Rey.

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She didn't call out anyone specifically. It was more out of frustration of the quality of original characters in fan fiction in general.

 

Here's another parody that is basically complaining about too many skyholes in movies. Basically the same motive. Do you think the person that wrote it is a ****ty person? Heck, in that case they did call out several people's work.

If this person was going to fan fic looking for quality original characters, well I mean I just dont know. lol

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Not at all what I said, dude.

 

Simple version: the term has roots that have always been shakey, and I think it is interesting to note that it came up to describe women when there have always been make characters who get a pass for similar qualities.

 

It's a term being championed by MRA fanbros, so I chose to stop using it, and I'm trying to encourage others to do the same.

 

I think it's nightly break time again for me as friends and enemies alike are saying my points make no sense. Given that my job is writing stories, this troubling to hear.

 

I don't need this **** ruining my entire day because never-wrongs gotta never-wrong.

I've never heard the term used other than when referring to Rey.

Did you miss Star Trek TNG's entire run? Wesley Crusher got that work all day, every day until they wrote him out.

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You are missing the story though, or at least part of the point. Up to this point in Star Wars power has been hereditary or passed down through elitist institutions. The Jedi literally take children from their "average" families and bring them to stay in their beautifully lavish temple and pass down their knowledge only to those that they themselves deem worthy of receiving this knowledge. Taking it even further the most power Force users pretty much have to come from the same family that was basically spawned from the Messiah.

 

The point of this is that anyone can be a Jedi. You don't need to be the child of descendant of the Messiah. You don't even need to be chosen as a baby and brought to live among this super elite class of Jedi. You can actually be a nobody, grow up in poverty. Not grow up like that but super secret have this incredible bloodline. You can be anyone, you can truly be at the bottom of society and end up with all this power.

 

It's a great message and an important one. And if you are gonna sit and parse the rate at which Rey gets her powers you are totally gonna miss that point. Rey doesn't need formal training, she doesnt need to be the daughter of anyone famous, she doesn't have to go to Jedi space Harvard to be taught.

You're right that is a good message to give kids. That's all well and good.

 

The problem is though Rey hasn't had any failures or setbacks. In fact she just seems to breeze through everything and kick ass without having to work for it. It's NOT about being overpowered or a "Mary sue" (or whatever that condescending term is meant to mean) it's that she's had no real obstacles to overcome (other than the emotional trauma of not having parents..which was dismissed with a "oh they were nothing and nobody anyway don't worry bout it"). There has been very little growth. She's not had to earn anything, and I don't think that sends a good message at all. But more than that, it makes her less of a compelling character. Don't get me wrong I like her character in TLJ and was amped to have a strong female lead. But TFA provided no setbacks to her, no lessons that were compelling enough for me to believe she is a stronger Rey NOW than at the beginning of TFA. Know what I mean?

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I made an earlier post about this but Ill repeat it because I don't expect anyone to read every post I make.

 

For me Rey's journey is less about her having this power and ability and more about her accepting she has this power and ability.In TFA she tells BB8 she is "nobody". When Maz offers her the saber she literally refuses it and runs away. Now later when the saber flies into her hands she has no choice, she has to defend herself and she uses it.

 

In TLJ she tells Luke "the galaxy needs you". Later when Luke refuses she says about the possibility of Kylo turning back to the good side she says "this could be how we win."

 

She just doesn't get that SHE is how they can win.

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