Game of Thrones, Seasons 7 and 8

[DANA-kin Skywalker]

Baby dwarf murdering Cersei would be amazing. God, I can't believe I just said that. I swear Im not a psychopath.

[The Choc]

There are alot of ways that this kid could be the thing that pushes Jaime against Cersei. And it's not fair to say "hey, thats not the worst thing Cersei did! Why didn't Jaime turn on her earlier?". Logic doesn't always play a part in love, we all know that. Something Cersei does doesn;t have to be the worst thing she'd done to push Jaime over. It could be the straw that broke the camels back.

 

Lucas talks about Jaime's redemption arc, what if Jaime sees his redemption in this child. What if Jaime starts to put all that on the kid? What if he thinks "Cersei has done awful things, I've supported her. I've done bad things to protect our love. However now this kid will make it worthwhile. I'm going tobe the best father ever, Im going to raise him to be a great King after Cersei. My redemption is going to be this child. All the bad we've done is going to be worth it because this kid is going to do so much good." Then he finds out it's not even his kid.

[DANA-kin Skywalker]

...and to take it one step forward choc, not only will it be not his kid, but the spawn of two of the biggest ass holes in westeros. Good luck Jaime you'll need it.

[DANA-kin Skywalker]

Random thought: Jon Snow gives Longclaw back to Jorah Mormont. Jorah refuses, hands it back to Jon, and tells him to pass it down to his descendants. This handing down of the priceless weapon amd the subsequent thought about baby-making is representative of Jorah giving Jon the green-light to bang Dany.

[Lucas1138]

There are alot of ways that this kid could be the thing that pushes Jaime against Cersei. And it's not fair to say "hey, thats not the worst thing Cersei did! Why didn't Jaime turn on her earlier?". Logic doesn't always play a part in love, we all know that. Something Cersei does doesn;t have to be the worst thing she'd done to push Jaime over. It could be the straw that broke the camels back.

 

Lucas talks about Jaime's redemption arc, what if Jaime sees his redemption in this child. What if Jaime starts to put all that on the kid? What if he thinks "Cersei has done awful things, I've supported her. I've done bad things to protect our love. However now this kid will make it worthwhile. I'm going tobe the best father ever, Im going to raise him to be a great King after Cersei. My redemption is going to be this child. All the bad we've done is going to be worth it because this kid is going to do so much good." Then he finds out it's not even his kid.

Pass.

[The Choc]

Okay Comic Book Guy!

 

In all seriousness you are in that mode where you decided what Jaime's ultimate role in the story should be and if it doesn't unfold that way you won't be happy. And even if it basically does unfold that way you won't be happy. You, and many other fans myself included, think that Jaime should kill Cersei to prevent her from committing some atrocity whih mirrors what he did with Aerys. If it doesn't go that way, you won't be happy. Even if he kills Cersei for some other reason, you won't be happy. And even if he kills Cersei to prevent an atrocity you won't be happy because you will say "oh this puts him over the edge but that other atrocity didn't".

 

The fact of the matter is this, the shows handling of Jaime has been more than good to this point. We don't know where it's going to end up. But it's not like his actions don't add up or don't make any sense. He is a Lannister and he staying on the side of the Lannisters.

 

Someone before said he was a good person on the wrong side? So the right side would be the side where the Queen burns surrendered POWs to death? That's so preferable to Cersei? I mean I'll agree that Dany is a better person than Cersei but how would Jaime know or think this? She DID bring a foreign army to invade Westeros. She DID burn an army from the back of a dragon. She DID burn POWs to death. Her father WAS insane. If you are Jaime how in the world is that side the better side than Cersei's side?

 

And that to me is where Jaime is, he sees past it all. There is no good, there is no bad. And the character you would consider "good" Ned Stark ended up getting himself killed, his son killed, his wife killed, his daughter married to a mad man.

 

At this point in time what should he do? Kill Cersei and turn the Kingdoms over to Dany? Kill her and take the Throne himself? There is no answer. To Jaime the world is what it is. The powerful suppress the weak. That's the world. He didn't invent it. He can't change it.

[DANA-kin Skywalker]

^ well said Choc. If I could +1 this a hundred times I would. That's what makes the show great. There's no "these are the good guys and these are the bad guys". There's just people with motivations. Sometimes they do bad things. The pure good guys end up getting killed.

 

I said Jamie was a decent guy on the wrong side, but you're right choc: from his pov he doesn't know that Dany is much better. Even the audience isn't in complete agreement about her, for the reasons you mentioned. Dany says all the right things, "breaking the wheel", etc, but that could be just politicking and rhetoric. What does that mean exactly, and how does she propose to do it? That's never been said. So not everyone watching the show is convinced.

 

From Jamie's pov she is a girl with a claim to the throne and a huge-ass foreign army pointed right at him. An opponent, and one he doesn't think he can beat, and he is given no reason to think she won't use it to burn the world with it. So...he's kind of stuck.

[Good God a Bear]

I'll take your word that you're not the one giving away spoilers from the outline now

 

Right the prophecy becomes a major problem - but the question remains how much weight the show gives to that (and a lesser question in my mind, is who says the prophecy has to be true).

 

A miscarriage would be "interesting," but I'm not sure what the narrative purpose of that development would be at this point.

I could tell you what the outline says if you want...

[Lucas1138]

Okay Comic Book Guy!

 

In all seriousness you are in that mode where you decided what Jaime's ultimate role in the story should be and if it doesn't unfold that way you won't be happy. And even if it basically does unfold that way you won't be happy. You, and many other fans myself included, think that Jaime should kill Cersei to prevent her from committing some atrocity whih mirrors what he did with Aerys. If it doesn't go that way, you won't be happy. Even if he kills Cersei for some other reason, you won't be happy. And even if he kills Cersei to prevent an atrocity you won't be happy because you will say "oh this puts him over the edge but that other atrocity didn't".

 

No, I'm unhappy because the show can't decide what they want to do with Jaime. The arc that Jaime is travelling on in the books is one of redemption and distancing himself from Cersei. That’s what makes him a compelling character. He’s perpetually misunderstood.

 

In seasons two, three and four this is the arc the show has him on as well. You’ve got scenes like Jaime and Catelyn’s second conversation. “So many vows, they make you swear and swear. Defend the king, obey the king, obey your father, protect the innocent, defend the weak. What if your father despises the king? What if the king massacres the innocent? No matter what you do you’re forsaking your vows.”

 

You’ve got the scene in the baths at Harrenhal where Jaime recounts the slaying of Aerys.

 

When he and Brienne part ways he dutifully accepts the transfer of the vow Brienne swore to Catelyn, he will return the Stark girls.

 

He continues to make good on this promise in season 4. In this scene he and Brienne are looking at the White Book. Jaime recognizes that all he’s known for is being the Kingslayer. He wants more than that as his legacy. He gives Oathkeeper to Brienne and sends her to go find Sansa.

 

Even as late as last season, Jaime strives in every way to take Riverrun back without shedding Tully blood. Edmure believes Jaime to be a truly terrible person, so Jaime threatens to send his child into Riverrun with a catapult if that will help him retake the city.

 

But it’s at that point the show continues off the rails. Jaime’s motivation, as he states it, is to get the siege over with so he can get back to Cersei. This is a result of the butterfly effect of Tyrion not telling Jaime about Cersei’s infidelities. Jaime still loved her in the books, right up to the point he realized that she didn’t truly reciprocate. It’s even to the point that while Jaime is at the siege of Riverrun, Cersei is a prisoner of the faith. She sends him a letter asking for help and when he gets it he throws it in the fire! He’s done playing Cersei’s games.

 

In the show, they didn’t really give him a reason to separate from Cersei – until she blew up part of the city and caused their only child left to commit suicide. If that’s not enough for Jaime then nothing will be. And if they try to sell something as such, they’ll have done a shitty job laying the groundwork. There is now “last straw” remaining at this point.

 

So no, I don’t think Jaime has a redemption arc in the show anymore. He’s barely a sympathetic character on the side of evil. Cersei is evil, and that’s not a dealbreaker for Jaime. He’s embraced it. That has bastardized his character. There's no nuance with Jaime anymore. He's a bad guy. He's a bad guy you kind of like because he's got some charm, but he's a bad guy.

 

That’s my frustration.

[Kyrian]

If this kid is born before Daeny takes the throne, Daeny is going to have to kill it to make sure there's no threat to her reign later on when it comes of age. Depending on who else survives by that point, it's going to make for some very interesting scenes when it comes to, who kills it, how, how her advisors and allies will react to the killing, who will support the act (if any), and if it will alienate her from any of her main people (the Dothraki may even object and she could find herself facing a Barbarian Rebellion).

[The Choc]

 

Okay Comic Book Guy!

 

In all seriousness you are in that mode where you decided what Jaime's ultimate role in the story should be and if it doesn't unfold that way you won't be happy. And even if it basically does unfold that way you won't be happy. You, and many other fans myself included, think that Jaime should kill Cersei to prevent her from committing some atrocity whih mirrors what he did with Aerys. If it doesn't go that way, you won't be happy. Even if he kills Cersei for some other reason, you won't be happy. And even if he kills Cersei to prevent an atrocity you won't be happy because you will say "oh this puts him over the edge but that other atrocity didn't".

 

No, I'm unhappy because the show can't decide what they want to do with Jaime. The arc that Jaime is travelling on in the books is one of redemption and distancing himself from Cersei. That’s what makes him a compelling character. He’s perpetually misunderstood.

 

In seasons two, three and four this is the arc the show has him on as well. You’ve got scenes like Jaime and Catelyn’s second conversation. “So many vows, they make you swear and swear. Defend the king, obey the king, obey your father, protect the innocent, defend the weak. What if your father despises the king? What if the king massacres the innocent? No matter what you do you’re forsaking your vows.”

 

You’ve got the scene in the baths at Harrenhal where Jaime recounts the slaying of Aerys.

 

When he and Brienne part ways he dutifully accepts the transfer of the vow Brienne swore to Catelyn, he will return the Stark girls.

 

He continues to make good on this promise in season 4. In this scene he and Brienne are looking at the White Book. Jaime recognizes that all he’s known for is being the Kingslayer. He wants more than that as his legacy. He gives Oathkeeper to Brienne and sends her to go find Sansa.

 

Even as late as last season, Jaime strives in every way to take Riverrun back without shedding Tully blood. Edmure believes Jaime to be a truly terrible person, so Jaime threatens to send his child into Riverrun with a catapult if that will help him retake the city.

 

But it’s at that point the show continues off the rails. Jaime’s motivation, as he states it, is to get the siege over with so he can get back to Cersei. This is a result of the butterfly effect of Tyrion not telling Jaime about Cersei’s infidelities. Jaime still loved her in the books, right up to the point he realized that she didn’t truly reciprocate. It’s even to the point that while Jaime is at the siege of Riverrun, Cersei is a prisoner of the faith. She sends him a letter asking for help and when he gets it he throws it in the fire! He’s done playing Cersei’s games.

 

In the show, they didn’t really give him a reason to separate from Cersei – until she blew up part of the city and caused their only child left to commit suicide. If that’s not enough for Jaime then nothing will be. And if they try to sell something as such, they’ll have done a ****ty job laying the groundwork. There is now “last straw” remaining at this point.

 

So no, I don’t think Jaime has a redemption arc in the show anymore. He’s barely a sympathetic character on the side of evil. Cersei is evil, and that’s not a dealbreaker for Jaime. He’s embraced it. That has bastardized his character. There's no nuance with Jaime anymore. He's a bad guy. He's a bad guy you kind of like because he's got some charm, but he's a bad guy.

 

That’s my frustration.

 

 

I disagree, I think show Jaime is a person trying to be and do good within the confines of the world he is in.

[Poe Dameron]

Personally, I think Jaime's basic story is probably the most interesting of any of the characters at the moment in that he is easily the most classically tragic. He's clearly not evil, but he's bound to evil by the choices that he's made. It's the second time in his life he's found himself in that position. The first time, he eventually did the right thing and murdered the Mad King to prevent the burning of King's Landing.

 

But this isn't a king he despises that he's stuck following now, it's Cersei who is more or less the guiding light of his entire life. And even with that, he was clearly uncomfortable with his position and regretting his life choices. Even when asked whether Cersei will be a good ruler, all he can do is shrug his shoulders and say that anything's possible. Given time, he likely would have turned on Cersei as well, but that baby, that I'm not entirely convinced is real, has tightened her grip on him and made it impossible to break free for now.

 

It's rare that you see a character so thoroughly stuck. He's playing things out and slowly walking to his own doom because he doesn't feel he has any other choice. He has potential to be a great man that could surpass the man that Tywin demanded he be, but he's given up and is willing to play the part of puppet because he doesn't see any other viable option that conforms with his own sense of honor and duty to Cersei and now his child.

[DANA-kin Skywalker]

Jamie falls into the "you could build a million bridges and nobody calls you a bridge builder, but you suck one dick amd you're a ****sucker for life" category

[Kyrian]

Doesn't he make that exact point himself at one stage, only about his unofficial title of Kingslayer? Think it may have been in the bath scene with Brienne.

[Poe Dameron]

Do we agree that they would have been much better off making this season 10 episodes so that the writers wouldn't feel the need to box themselves in? I just feel that the character interaction has been great this season, some of the best of the series really outside of the perennially disappointing Sansa and Arya, but the plot has been badly mishandled and rushed and I can't figure out why they felt the need to do it this way.

[DANA-kin Skywalker]

Do we agree that they would have been much better off making this season 10 episodes so that the writers wouldn't feel the need to box themselves in? I just feel that the character interaction has been great this season, some of the best of the series really outside of the perennially disappointing Sansa and Arya, but the plot has been badly mishandled and rushed and I can't figure out why they felt the need to do it this way.

I think so. However if they stretched it out to ten, I'm not sure they have enough content to make ten quality/complete episodes. There's so much less source material available considering how far ahead the show is from the books.

[The Choc]

There is alot of stuff they could have mined for 3 more episodes. Alot of interesting stuff that wasn't developed at all. We had one seen of Olenna talking to Dany about not listening to Tyrion, easily could have been a storyline that evolved over a few weeks. The Brotherhood heads towards Eastwatch, next we see them they are prisoners are Eastwatch. Their first meeting with Tormund wouldn't have been interesting? How about Tormund simply getting to Eastwatch himself? The Black Brothers who were already manning the castle just turned leadership over to a wildling? We could have had the storyline in The Reach play out longer. Maybe a scene with Tarly and Olenna where she convinces him not to go over to Cersei? Maybe a few scenes of Olenna and Tarly both trying to recruit Lords of the Reach to their sides? The whole idea that Varys is looking for the best monarch, clearly questions Dany's leadership to Tyrion, why not a little storyline where Varys is considering backing Jon instead? Plus the whole Dany-Lannister war could have played out longer, instead of a montage showing Casterly Rock fall then another showing Highgarden falling to the Lannisters you easily could have had one episode end with Casterly Rock falling. The next deal with Dany and Tyrion learning how easy it was and they can't figure it out if maybe the Lannisters are even weaker than they thought or if something was up, then the next week reveal Jaime's plan to take Highgarden.

 

My only guess for making it 7 episodes is budget. They want to spend the money on some big stuff that 1-we've already seen and 2-are yet to see. Eventhough most of the stuff they could have added to make the season longer wouldn't be big money type scenes it still costs money to shoot them.

[The Choc]

And also, instead of one throwaway line read by Gilly why not have Sam do some sleuthing at the Citadel and slowly find out information about Rhaegar's anullment and 2nd marriage and third child?

[Poe Dameron]

I think so. However if they stretched it out to ten, I'm not sure they have enough content to make ten quality/complete episodes. There's so much less source material available considering how far ahead the show is from the books.

 

There's almost no source material at all at this point, so that's not really even a consideration.

 

Does anyone watch anime? Quite frequently, the series they make are based on manga that are ongoing. There are tons of anime out there that start off great, and then towards the end fall off a cliff. Basically, the show runs out of source material and the animation studio writes their own ending, or introduces filler, or just stops a weird point. Game of Thrones is pretty much at that point. They were good at adapting the previous material, and they really like the characters and know how to write lines for them, but they don't seem to have the first clue how to weave the complex storylines of the first few seasons.

 

I feel confident in saying that in Martin's version of the story, if there's a plan to capture a wight, a big open question there, the motivation will make a truckload more sense. He'll take the time to figure out a real motivation for why they have to go up there and do this. Why it has to be Jon. Why Dany can't be there at first. Here, let me at least partially fix this.

 

1. The Unsullied are stranded at Casterly Rock as they were in the show and the Lannisters take High Garden. Standing there is a representative from the Golden Company. He is immediately paid and sends word to his begin a siege of Casterly Rock. Cersei spent the last of her gold putting them on retainer and this is merely the final payment. The Unsullied are now defending a position that was stripped of all provisions before they arrived with no avenue for escape and an army just as fierce and disciplined as themselves.

 

2. Dany attempts a lone rescue with her dragons, but is turned away by the scorpions. Taking King's Landing will take too long. She will have no choice but to abandon Dragonstone and march the Dothraki into what is surely a trap or sacrifice another pillar of her military.

 

3. Jon heads north having only gotten a mutual non-aggression pact and a special relationship with the young queen for now. It's not that Dany doesn't believe him, she's just busy.

 

4. Before returning to Winterfell, which Jon is keeping in contact with because there's no reason he wouldn't be, Jon goes to inspect Eastwatch.

 

5. While at Eastwatch, the White Walkers are making movements near the Wall that make Jon think that a breach is imminent (in truth, they are setting a trap). Jon, near despair, approves the plan to capture a wight to present as proof to the warring groups in the south. He and his crew pass through the wall.

 

6. Soon after making their capture and hearing the horde approaching, Benjen arrives and provides them a tenuous refuge. Instead of preferring to die instead of sharing a horse, Benjen has the time to explain what the hell happened to him and what he is.

 

7. The refuge will not last forever, but Bran has been using ravens to watch. He sends word of Jon's location to Dany with a clear message that Jon will die by the next nightfall.

 

8. Dany is nearing the climactic battle of the season. It is clear that Jon can only be saved by her dragons, but that would force her to leave at this critical moment. Earlier in the season, Jon would have said that at some point she wouldn't have the luxury of fighting Cersei and waiting. If she delays too long, the war will already be lost. If the King of the North dies, it is quite possible the war will have indeed be lost. Dany's got a choice.

 

9. The Second Battle of Casterly Rock begins at the same time the defenses of Jon's refuge fail. Both Jon and Dany's sides falter. The scream of the dragon is heard, but the audience isn't sure where she went at first. She's come to save Jon with two of her dragons.

 

10. Due to a piece of clever strategy from Tyrion, making up for his previous blunder. With the scorpions present, it was always too dangerous to use Dany's dragons in a head-on assault anyway. Instead they would serve as a diversion until the scorpions were taken care of. Only one dragon necessary for that, and he can't be controlled anyway. Eventually, there is a moment where they wish they had some dragons, and there are casualties.

 

11. Dany loses her dragon, has her moment with Jon and returns to the site of her own war. The ice dragon is born.

 

12. There she finds her side victorious, but her leaving had a price. Among the casualties is her most fervent supporter Jorah. Cersei still has King's Landing, the Lannister army is intact, and now Dany has to face grumbling because she abandoned the battle as she now insists they head north.

 

13. The dead breach the wall, or possibly just fly over it with their nifty new transport.

 

And that's the end of the season. A bit sloppy, but I didn't spend much time thinking about it. But it would make a lot more sense from a character motivation standpoint even if it took a couple more episodes than Tyrion coming up with the silly plan (that includes his very recognizable self sneaking into King's Landing) on the spot.

[Good God a Bear]

Yeah...no. I like the basic outline of this season. I just think it needed more episodes.

[Poe Dameron]

You prefer for the characters to act out of character, without logic, and with a ton of plot armor?

 

Naw, the plot as it stands is unsalvageable because it just doesn't make sense and never will. It only exists because they rushed the narrative in the first place.

[DANA-kin Skywalker]

Ned Stark screwed up and paid for it with his life. Robb Stark screwed up and paid for it with his life and his mother's. Jon has been careless many times over the last couple of seasons, but he keeps getting saved and resurrected. When you let characters screw up time and again without consequence, it loses a bit of what made the show great in earlier seasons. That's probably the biggest flaw of the show in general right now. It's still great television.

[Poe Dameron]

We've had three separate major characters survive certain death by jumping or falling into water this season and then miraculously getting away safely, Jon, Jaime, and Theon. Add in Arya surviving the Waif's ambush near the end of last season the same way and that's the writers using this device at least four times in just 10 episodes and only Theon's counting as remotely realistic.

 

Apparently Ned would have been fine if he had a puddle to jump into. Who knew?

 

Anyway, while plot armor has been a growing problem, particularly for Jon considering the vast number of times he's been prepared to die and then is miraculously saved, I still think that the bigger issue is that they're creating set pieces they want to get to and forcing the story.

 

To me, the combination of the plot armor, breaking the internal rules of the series, and sheer stupidity of the plan in the first place of the last two episodes, to go along with Arya and Sansa reverting back to Season One, has been a jump the shark type of moment where the flaws that I was giving them a pass on just piled up to the point where I can't give them credit for knowing what they're doing anymore. Odine's comment not long ago that the show is trashy is really not giving credit to the thought put into the whole world building in the first place.

 

And, like I've noted, I've been fine with them playing a bit fast and loose as long as the television was good. In fact, the pace of a few seasons was just way too slow, but there was just so much wrong about that last episode that screams that the people in charge just don't care about how they're getting to their big budget spectaculars anymore, or even treating the audience with respect.

 

Hopefully, they can recover, but Eastwatch and the whole climax story has been a disaster in my eyes.

[The Choc]

I feel like people are overreacting to one episode. I mean a few weeks ago Lucas was complaining about timing issue and Poe basically said he didn't mind it and felt the episodes were crisp. There have been 2 episodes since then. One of which I think for the most part was free of those kind of issues. Then last weeks episode did have those problems, the worst they;ve been on the show for sure. But still, if 2 weeks ago you felt it was fine, I think it's overreacting to go too crazy over last week.

[Poe Dameron]

I feel like people are overreacting to one episode. I mean a few weeks ago Lucas was complaining about timing issue and Poe basically said he didn't mind it and felt the episodes were crisp. There have been 2 episodes since then. One of which I think for the most part was free of those kind of issues. Then last weeks episode did have those problems, the worst they;ve been on the show for sure. But still, if 2 weeks ago you felt it was fine, I think it's overreacting to go too crazy over last week.

Yes, and if you care to read my posts, I haven't retreated at all from the first four episodes being good. And I keep saying that it the teleporting issues didn't bother me in those episodes.

 

But you seem to be retreating to an area where my only problems with last week's episode was the teleporting, when it was only a part of the problem and I've consistently focused on how out of character and dumb the whole premise of the episode was in the first place and how terribly it was executed of which the teleporting ravens were plotholes dragging it down even further.

 

Saying that I just can't handle the timing issues is more or less ignoring 90% of what I'm posting. And there's not even a good defense for it based on previous episodes because this was the most egregious by far.