Poe Dameron Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 I was afraid they wouldn't be able to keep up the quality of the season, and the whole crazy "plan" of stealing a zombie made things crash in. There was some good stuff like Tyrion trying his best and failing with Dany (who apparently hates the name), Dany committing a faux pas by saying Jon is too short for her taste to exactly the wrong imp, Dany and Jon getting a little closer again, and Tormund is just awesome in general, but pretty much all the rest was bad. -The fight scenes were terrible. Damaging to the threat and being bad for the show just by existing terrible. Like four or five times I thought I saw someone go flying or die, couldn't figure out who because everyone's dressed the same and it's hard to see faces, and then everyone was fine a minute later. This was not the same horde that swarmed Hardhome and massacred everyone. Now they can't even take out half a dozen people they have surrounded? Jon's giving orders to fall back, again while they're surrounded? -And I suppose the dead army are just marching around out there doing nothing, because apparently they're like 5 minutes away from the wall at this point. -Boy am I glad the whole Benjen Stark thing led somewhere. -Apparently ravens have access to that magical teleporter too. There's just no excuse on this one. That's like 2,000 miles away. And that doesn't include Dany flying there herself which would be another 2,000 miles. -Yes, I like Tyrion talking to Dany, but Dany's got one hell of a point in asking why she's walking into a trap and not setting up her own contingencies. All for this dumb plan they have to get Cersei to stop fighting because they have a zombie, like Cersei won't just shrug, point at the Mountain, and say she's got a zombie too. -So Jon bends the knee, even though Dany has sworn to assist him, endangering the unity of the north? Why? I thought the whole parallel to Mance was exactly that it wasn't pride, but that when he submitted his ability to lead would vanish with it. Instead it's pride that was stopping him? That doesn't make sense. -So it didn't occur to Jon that they were leaving an ice dragon behind? Because that was my first thought. And didn't they leave the whole lake so that Jon could climb out of the water? I guess they just left to give him a few minutes to compose himself, get rescued, and leave before fishing that dragon out. -Sansa and Arya are currently having a heated competition over which of them is the stupidest girl at Winterfell. Sansa has the inside track on that by trusting Petyr and sending Brienne away. So now Arya is stuck with the worst storyline on the show for three straight seasons. Wonderful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odine Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 You're a curmudgeon. All of your complaints are valid, and I thought about every one of them too.. But if you let that spoil your enjoyment of the episode then that's on you. If you couldn't just enjoy the ride then I don't know what to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odine Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Regarding the distances and stuff: I have no idea where you guys are getting your measurements from.. I've not read the books... If there is explicit metric or imperial measure of distance outlined. All I can say is your (and many peoples here) concept of distance and time is based on your own travel in the U.S. Which is not a big country. It's VAST. I've always thought of Westeros as more the size of the UK (as many of the places, concepts, and allegories feel quite taken from British, Celtic, European history/myth). With that in mind, I always considered north of the Wall to be north of Hadrians wall (i.e Anywhere in Scotland) Winterfel would be Newcastle or somewhere in Northumberland, Kings Landing is London, Dragonstone = Tintadgel (birthplace of King Arthur) in Cornwall. Dorne is Spain or somewhere. Now it takes an hour in a small (737) passenger plane to fly from London to Edinburgh (Scotland). Hell, it only takes 1.5-2 hours to fly to Spain!!! So, in my mind it is entirely feasible that within the space of around 4 hours a raven could be sent from north of the wall to Dragonstone, and three dragons could return in the nick of time to save the day. At least that's how I rationalise it. It'll make all your lives a lot easier (regarding GoT) if you switch to the UK concept of space and time too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poe Dameron Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 All I can say is your (and many peoples here) concept of distance and time is based on your own travel in the U.S. Which is not a big country. It's VAST.I've always thought of Westeros as more the size of the UK (as many of the places, concepts, and allegories feel quite taken from British, Celtic, European history/myth). Westeros is much bigger than the United States, check out any source on the matter. If it were the size of England, then they could just be swimming across the Narrow Sea and the planet itself would be tiny. I've been fine with them playing fast and loose with time and distance this season since it's made for better television and the time between these scenes could be fudged. But in this case, they broke the rules by giving the characters a specific time-sensitive danger and need for rescue. It's much tougher to let the teleporting slide in that case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odine Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 The UK. England is but one country in the UK. Source on the matter? The only source is the source material and unless the show or books have implicitly stated the size of Westeros we're only going by guesswork. I'm not going to take a GoT wiki page as a legit source. I was never under the impression Westeros was larger than the U.S. (If it were larger than the U.S. It would've taken Ned stark near 6 months to travel from Winterfel to kings landing on horseback with the entire house on the road.)I thought it would be the size of Western/central Europe at most. And the sea between Westeros and Mehreen would be the distance between the UK and Northern Africa. Not the distance of the English Channel. So swimming that would most definitely be out of the question. But my original point was, I don't think the time sensitivity was a deal breaker if you consider scale in the way I presented it. We don't know how long they were stood there waiting for the water to freeze back over.. Could've been the best part of an entire day. Regardless, we are debating time and distance in a fictional universe.... So... You know.... Whatever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Krawlie Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 When Jon was on dragonstone, pretty positive they said he was "thousands of miles" from winterfell. Martin has said Westeros is about the size of South America. I don't have a source for but it's been in my head since before the show ever existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odine Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Hmmm... Maybe Jon meant by land? Dunno. I didn't know G.R.R said that. Kinda changes things. fuck it. Who knows how fast a dragon flies at top speed? I'm going to suspend my disbelief and not let a thing like logistical accuracy ruin my enjoyment in a TV show about zombie armies, dragons, necromancy, magic and incest . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucas1138 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 One of the worst episodes of the series. Maybe more as I read your posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odine Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Hahahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucas1138 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 It was entertaining. It was also very bad. It was a Michael Bay movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odine Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Yeah but the show is hardly literary/filmic genius. It's trashy TV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odine Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 You mean you didn't enjoy the close up of Jon Snow's battle scarred abs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Choc Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 The only major issue is the raven flying that fast and the general idea of a raven being able to be some sort of 911 call. A dragon flying fast enough to get there quickly, who knows. Maybe they fly as fast as modern jets. I don't think that's been established. As did the wights seeming less potent. That's just normal stuff. No different than storm troopers being able to shoot accurately at everyone other than main characters. Overall not my favorite episode. But still some great moments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Choc Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 I think in some ways the frustrating thing is that Benioff and Weiss knew the issue with the distance and how far it was and they tried to account for it. The whole thing with having to wait for the ice to freeze I'd think was put there just to show some time passing between when Gendry ran off and when Dany showed up. The thing is it totally wasn't enough. This is the first time something like this actually bothered me during the show. There have been other times when after the show when I thought about it more I;d be like "yeha that didn';t quite make sense" but while watching? Never. They could have just changed it a small bit and had the same story where it would make sense. I mean they don't have to be North of the Wall waiting for Dany for months or anything. Just a couple days would have been fine. Wouldn't take too much to write it that way. As for the rest: I actually really like the Sansa-Arya stuff. I think Arya's thinking makes sense with the information she has. Her whole life Sansa wanted to go South, be at court, wear pretty dresses and eat lemon cakes. She finally gets to do it. All she talks about during this time is how she will be Queen and how she loves Joffrey and all that. When Ned wants to take them back North Sansa doesn't want to go. It's not hard for Arya to believe that when the **** hit the fan Sansa sided with the Lannisters so she could keep living that life. Then at a later time the Lannisters cast her away. The Tyrion-Dany stuff is basically stuff we've seen before. I think they did cover having their own contingency in the likely event it was a trap. Tyrion said "you have an army and dragons, if anything happens to you Cersei knows the city will burn". Sounds like a decent insurance policy to me. As for Cersei's reaction to the Wight. I don't think Tyrion expects her to see it and be like "oh my, Iive been so wrong. Please take my army. We need to work together." What he's hoping is that Jaime will see it and the Lords and Counselers at Court will see it and Cersei will be force to act on it in some way. I really don't mind Jon naming Dany his Queen. His thinking is simply "when the North sees you ride those dragons and burn the dead they will name you Queen too." What I think would have been cool is if Dany didn't accept it. If she was like "you don't bend the knee to anyone". Basically naming Jon her equal. Lastly, I think Tyrion questioning Dany about the succession lends credence to my thought that Jon's true origin will play a part. The whole thing is Dany can;t have kids, there are no more Targaryan heirs. But wait! There is! A trueborn nephew! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryn Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 I've seen several articles addressing too-fast travel, just recently this one: https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/entertainthis/2017/08/15/game-thrones-has-annoying-problem-too-fast-travel/568263001/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odine Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 I really don't mind Jon naming Dany his Queen. His thinking is simply "when the North sees you ride those dragons and burn the dead they will name you Queen too." What I think would have been cool is if Dany didn't accept it. If she was like "you don't bend the knee to anyone". Basically naming Jon her equal. Lastly, I think Tyrion questioning Dany about the succession lends credence to my thought that Jon's true origin will play a part. The whole thing is Dany can;t have kids, there are no more Targaryan heirs. But wait! There is! A trueborn nephew! I was also thinking... after what Arya said about girls not getting what they want... NO ONE in GoT gets what they want. Not really. Which makes me think.. the only person who doesn't care or want the Iron Throne is Jon Snow. So hes probably going to wind up on it - against his wishes - by having the duty forced on him through his legitimacy, after his identity is publicly revealed. Dany on the other hand wants it so bad the rules of the show almost forbid her having it. The only counter to that is Cersei. She wanted the throne, and now has it. But her grasp is tenuous at best, and we all know she wont stay on it long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Choc Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 I don't know about Cersei not staying Queen. I'm not saying I'd bet on it but it wouldn't shock me if the Walkers are defeated, thus saving the world but essentially every character we like dies in the fight. Leaving Cersei to sit the Throne. That would be pretty bittersweet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANA-kin Skywalker Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 I'm probably the most forgiving here as far as the magic teleporter travel times here, but even I 100% agree that this week's episode was unforgivable with that. From the moment Jon's band of merry men realized they were screwed and sent Gendry back to the wall, to the time Danny shows up with her evac team of dragons, it felt like 12 hours or so had passed Most of which during that time the walkers Just stood there. In that 12 hours, a man ran back to the wall, collapsed, recovered, sent a raven half way aroun the world, and in response Danny flew half way around the world. Thats like a four hour flight each way, and that's a generous estimate. These beasts fly faster than modern day jets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANA-kin Skywalker Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 I don't know about Cersei not staying Queen. I'm not saying I'd bet on it but it wouldn't shock me if the Walkers are defeated, thus saving the world but essentially every character we like dies in the fight. Leaving Cersei to sit the Throne. That would be pretty bittersweet.The balance of power is pretty even between all the major players. I used to think it was open-season for the Lannisters. Now, it seems they could outlast Danny and Jon, especially now that the walkers have a new toy. Oh and I'm guessing...perhaps Jon's crew kidnapping and carrying a walker across The Wall is what somehow breaks the magic seal and allows them to cross the wall, where as they couldn't quite do that before? Kind of like...an act of war violating a peace treaty? I still feel like we know jack shite about the Night King and the walkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metropolis Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 What I want to know is if the dragon will breath ice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Choc Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Well right now Cersei really has no army in Westeros. It didn't seem like many escaped Dany's dragon attack. She is in a position of weakness and knows it. She's admitted this to Jaime. She seemingly is trying to hire the Golden Company but they aren't around yet. My guess is at this meeting she will give her small army to go North, other than a small guard for the City. She has very few men left so it will just be a nominal measure. Everyone will think she is trying to help. But her real plan will be to send everyone North to get decimated by the Walkers, have The Golden Company arrive and then pick off whoever remains from Dany and Jon's armies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANA-kin Skywalker Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Precisely what I meant by outlast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 Honestly, the thing that bugged me most was the fact the 8 of them were surrounded by thousands of dead, who were handicapped by broken ice? And beforehand, it took the dead 20 seconds to completely swarm them on the ice lake, but once the lake froze back over again, the dead should have swallowed them up and killed them. I understand it's a fantasy series and realism is thrown out the window sometimes, but that.....that shit just doesn't add up. Once that I've froze back over, it should have been a fight that lasted 10 seconds, not a fight that lasted long enough for Danny and her dragons to fly 1000 miles to rescue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucas1138 Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 The worst part of the episode is the Sansa and Arya nonsense - which somehow makes even less sense than the Game of Thrones Teleportation device . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Choc Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 I totally disagree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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