Driver Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Still thinking on this-- let me reword it... For discussion's sake-- say you are 100% correct, that Lucas was writing to a certain model, and did so as planned.... I don't think you are because there are too many terrible things and glaring plot issues to say he successfully did ANYTHING.. BUT even if you were right. That doesn't change the fact that he was making a movie, so his first job should be to MAKE A GOOD MOVIE. Saying that "but this is how classic mythology works" isn't an legit reason to defend a poor choice for a movie. If he was writing classic prose mythology, he might be a genius. But he's not-- he's a filmmaker. He is taking his various influences and interests (mythology among them) and supposedly using them to craft a movie for the masses. It's on him to know how to adapt those mythic tales to tell the best story in movie form, NOT use the the myth that he likes most. I get the mythology-- I use it as an argument al the time to excuse the broad, fast-paced storytelling of Star Wars. But if you go back to an ANH era interview with Lucas and he talks about myth, he clearly says MODERN myth. His intent was to take myth and transform it into a modern form. Which is what the OT, ANH especially is. He translated mythic storytelling to filmic structure and language. The PT could be on the money with its mythology-- but he failed to do the modernization and translation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Darth Hunter Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Still thinking on this-- let me reword it... For discussion's sake-- say you are 100% correct, that Lucas was writing to a certain model, and did so as planned...Wasn't there something out there regarding a conversation Lucas had with Rick McCallum where Lucas tells him his plan for the PT and knows people will be angry with him for starting it off with Anakin as a little kid but him going with it nonetheless? I seem to remember reading something about this but wasn't sure if it was legit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quetzalcoatl Posted January 7, 2016 Author Share Posted January 7, 2016 Lucas wasn't writing classic myth. He was writing a movie He was actually doing both, and I get what your saying. Trying to do both isn't a good idea. I personally wasn't a fan of all the prophecy/virgin birth stuff either. Its one thing to not like the decisions Lucas made as a writer or director, but some here seem to genuinely not get the logic behind those decisions and yet will arrogantly proclaim that Lucas messed up his own story. Here's a great example. People like to argue that Anakin's character wasn't portrayed right in the PT. He was arrogant, childish, selfish, whiney, and just generally not a likeable guy. For all the flaws the prequels may have, I will argue that Anakin's character was one thing the prequels got right! Lucas said he wanted to tell a failed hero's journey story with the prequels. In mythology the failed hero can't achieve hero status because his emotional development was arrested during childhood. As a result he is stuck in a perpetual adolescent phase. The failed hero is characterized by immaturity, impatience, arrogance, and a false sense of entitlement. It is no coincidence that this describes Anakin so closely because Anakin Skywalker is modeled after the failed hero. So I cannot fathom how fans can claim that Lucas "messed up" Anakin's character. If it was Lucas's intention to portray Anakin as a failed hero, and it was, then he succeeded. Lucas succeeded in telling the story he wanted to tell. The real problem is that the story Lucas wanted to tell wasn't a story fans wanted to see. I get that. But it is extremely arrogant for a fan to claim that Lucas messed up when not fully grasping what Lucas was going for in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 But he DID mess up his own story, in several ways. People like to argue that Anakin's character wasn't portrayed right in the PT. He was arrogant, childish, selfish, whiney, and just generally not a likeable guy. For all the flaws the prequels may have, I will argue that Anakin's character was one thing the prequels got right! I'd agree--- that's exactly how Anakin should have been portrayed-- but there are a lot of ways to do that, some more skilled than others. I've said in other places that Kylo Ren is the Anakin Skywalker we wanted. He is all the things listed above, but comes off with oodles more depth and substance. You don't like TFA so you may not agree. So here's another example: Han Solo in ANH. Replace whiney for douchey and that's exactly Han. But not for one second does anybody not like Han Solo! Why? Because the writing and dialog was skilled enough that despite these flaws, we LIKED him. Lucas said he wanted to tell a failed hero's journey story with the prequels. In mythology the failed hero can't achieve hero status because his emotional development was arrested during childhood. As a result he is stuck in a perpetual adolescent phase. Okay-- if that's what he wanted-- fine. I say that a well-written, well-acted, likeable 15 year old could achieve the exact same effect. It would have been harder, for sure, and it would have required a skilled actor, a director who could get that performance, and a script that was subtle in the right places. But Lucas could do none of those things, so he went the easy way-- to have a cute kid to make that connection easier to pull of. The failed hero is characterized by immaturity, impatience, arrogance, and a false sense of entitlement. Again-- I agree that Anakin should be all of these things. But NONE of those qualities required him to be 8 years old. So I cannot fathom how fans can claim that Lucas "messed up" Anakin's character. If it was Lucas's intention to portray Anakin as a failed hero, and it was, then he succeeded. Lucas succeeded in telling the story he wanted to tell. The real problem is that the story Lucas wanted to tell wasn't a story fans wanted to see. I get that. But it is extremely arrogant for a fan to claim that Lucas messed up when not fully grasping what Lucas was going for in the first place. He messed up and failed not because of his ideas-- but because of how he presented them. Anakin is a failed hero-- fine, great. But how Lucas chose to tell that story didn't work. Again-- I get it it. I understand what you are saying, and I understand what he wanted to do. The failure isn't that I don't like the idea, or think it isn't fitting. I do and it is. The failure is that it just isn't presented in an enjoyable way for most people. He messed up Anakin by not giving him any likeable qualities, emotion, decent dialog or depth. I promise you it is possible to follow that failed hero mythic model with a character of substance and interest that people would actually like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Let me put it this way-- George Lucas is a mechanic and you go to him for an oil change. He tells you his plan-- he's going to drain the oil, replace the oil filter, add new oil. What ends up happening is that when he's draining the oil he doesn't collect it properly and ends up walking through it and tracking it all over the interior of your car. He replaces the filter with one that isn't quite the right part, but he makes it fit by bashing it into place with a mallet. And when he's putting the new oil in, he slops it all over the place so for a week, every time your car warms up it's going to smoke and smell like it's on fire causing you to worry and panic. Did he succeed with his plan to change your oil? Yes. Would you find it acceptable in any way? Hell no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowDog Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 LOL great analogy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 No lie, I almost said "let me Shadowdog this" since I consider you the king of analogies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quetzalcoatl Posted January 7, 2016 Author Share Posted January 7, 2016 Ok, fine. You get it. And I will concede that it could have been executed better. I guess the source of my frustration comes from people who like to say "here's how I would have done it," and proceed to say a bunch of stuff that shows they don't have a clue what the intent of the PT even was. Maybe you get it, but you've got to admit that there are a lot of people who don't. Remember all those people back in 1999 who were saying Anakin was a clone, or that Shmi was raped by space pirates? Was the mythological use of the virgin birth theme in that movie really that difficult to see? Anytime I would try to help people understand the real significance of the "no father" thing, I would get accused of arrogance, closed-mindedness, or lacking an imagination. They would then return to their speculations on Anakin being the product of space-pirate rape or some equally absurd thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavonis Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 One of the biggest problems with the PT was fan expectations. No one can create a story that would live up to fan expectations. Everyone had interpreted and imagined the OT backstory in their own way, and few of them had considered that the story Lucas would tell wasn't the one they imagined. Even if he had told an excellent story, it was not going to be anyone's "head canon", so there would've been disappointment anyway. Let's leave the PT behind. It exists, isn't particularly well-liked, but it's the past. Let's just look forward to new and better Star Wars films. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Ok, fine. You get it. And I will concede that it could have been executed better. I guess the source of my frustration comes from people who like to say "here's how I would have done it," and proceed to say a bunch of stuff that shows they don't have a clue what the intent of the PT even was. Maybe you get it, but you've got to admit that there are a lot of people who don't. Remember all those people back in 1999 who were saying Anakin was a clone, or that Shmi was raped by space pirates? Was the mythological use of the virgin birth theme in that movie really that difficult to see? Anytime I would try to help people understand the real significance of the "no father" thing, I would get accused of arrogance, closed-mindedness, or lacking an imagination. They would then return to their speculations on Anakin being the product of space-pirate rape or some equally absurd thing. So what you're saying is I WIN. I kid. Fan expectation is a curse for sure-- but I think George Lucas made a mistake by not giving people what they wanted. Yes, you're right, space pirate rape is a crap fest and most fan ideas are terrible... but you don't make a multimillion dollar movie for yourself. No movie is made for an audience of one. That's the opposite of what a movie is for. If Lucas wanted the story by himself for himself, then it should have just stayed in his little notepad. The second you decide you want to tell a story for the masses, and those masses know hints of the story already and WANT to be pleased, you could do a better job of walking the line of giving them what they want, and being true to your vision. Let's leave the PT behind. I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavonis Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 "Let's leave the PT behind" = "flush the toilet after taking a dump". Don't linger on the color and shape you would've preferred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 So... When somebody talks about the PT in even a remotely positive way... I don't say something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pong Messiah Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 no i think it is clear that he wants you to remind them how poopy the prequels are every time also we can only get over the prequels if new ones are made and anakin reimagined im sorry they are just that bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 YAYTRUTH. I honestly hoped TFA would make me forget about the PT and get over it. But it actually made my hate more intense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pong Messiah Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Same here. I had grown a kind of "Oh, come on, they weren't that bad -- they're FUN, even!" attitude over years of half-watching/half-snoozing through the Prequels. With TFA on the horizon, I actually watched them all -- really watched them all -- and was shocked at how wrong I was about AotC and RotS. Yes, they are that bad, and no, they are NOT fun. TFA only drives that truth home! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mara Jade Skywalker Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 I just wish I could ignore that era forever. I don't caaaaaaaaare anymore. Some of my Star Wars Twitter friends are complaining about missing the prequel era. Meanwhile, I'd be fine never reading another book or seeing another show in that era ever again. Even Clone Wars. I imagine in a year or so I'll be ready for Rebels to finish so we can get a post-Jedi show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowDog Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Whoa. Holy shit. You were like one of the biggest PT honks ever and now you're all like "Get thee behind me Satan" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mara Jade Skywalker Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 I like them. I just like this era waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more. I'm also bitter because the prequels kept creeping into the post-RotJ EU when it made absolutely no sense. So I'm eager to just move on and let it go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 It's working... I'm finally getting in there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mara Jade Skywalker Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 You wish. It's all Luke Skywalker. And Poe Dameron, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowDog Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 LMFAO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good God a Bear Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 I still don't understand the purpose of Poe. He should have died like they had him doing in the original script. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 I still don't understand the purpose of Poe. To look dreamy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mara Jade Skywalker Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 He does a damn fine job of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowDog Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 I agree. He was pointless after the first half hour. And I say that liking him. Which is why it annoys me when people try to say it's a Big 3 with him one of them. Um ... NO. It's a big 2. Hopefully he gets more to do in the next movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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