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Anything before the advent of the ubiquitous cameras of the 21st century can be dismissed as "urban legend". If Diana were active between WWI and her appearance in BvS, it must have been away from cameras. Any eyewitnesses would have their accounts doubted.

 

At any rate, the rumors are that the sequel would be set in modern times, but I suppose flashbacks aren't out of the question.

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Good Lord what will the Black Panther thread be like?

And I just took the kid to see it. Like all D.C. Films it needed a good quarter of its content edited out, but it was easily the best movie they've put out.   I had problems with it, but they are prob

Am I the only one that sings the 70s theme song in their head every time they see this topic on the front page?

 

 

I really wish the sequel would be set during WWII.

 

Wish they had thought ahead a bit further so that they could have done a Justice Society movie starring Wonder Woman during WWII. I'd love to see her leading Jay Garrick, Alan Scott, Wild Cat, Hawk Man, Sandman, or any combo they want during that era.

 

But has been noted, she stayed under the radar for a hundred years leaving only that picture as evidence for Luthor to find, so that seems unlikely.

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The issue DC does now have is where and what has Wonder Woman done for a century? The world reacted to Superman in MoS like no other supers came before him. Batman was a myth and if I recall right he had no idea about Wonder Woman until BvS.

 

You know how this problem could have been solved? The epilogue narration by Diana that exists in the film. Squeeze in a tiny Highlander aspect and line, "I've held many professions since that time, doing my best to help where needed." And then the narration continues as it does and boom she leaps away in costume because of the events of MoS and BvS making supers public.

 

Afterthought: Of course we could just assume that, or even in a sequel a single line could drop.

One of the parts of Wonder Woman I didn't like was the framing story, which seemed completely unnecessary and existed just to tie it in to the larger DC universe. I think the movie would have been better without it, and they could have done more movies set in the past building up to the current day. I really wonder (heh) if I'll like the sequel as much as the original since it won't have any of the same characters.

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the question of representation and power hierarchies deserves to be factored in.

In whether a summer blockbuster is a good movie or not?

 

I mean, if we want to talk about representation, the various media are awash in positive female role models. Movies might be a bit behind because of money considerations, but I have no difficulty reading books and finding television shows with plenty of girl leads written by women. And it seems every time I watch a kids' network with my nephew, there's a new commercial telling girls they can do anything. To me, all this is old hat. Xena, Buffy, and Captain Janeway happened 20 years ago now. Even a show like Game of Thrones which made a name for itself by exploiting its actresses' boobs is pretty much being run by women at last viewing.

 

If anything, the positive female role model stuff is so pervasive that it inhibits characters. Girl protagonists have to all basically be Belle and want independent adventure, like books, not be beauty or girly obsessed, and all that other stuff. They're being pigeonholed into being flawless and judged based on a set of criteria of what a positive female role model should be as if every girl must represent all girls instead of that single character. I suppose in Wonder Woman's case that worked out because people were tired of the character flaws from other comic book characters becoming formula. But in the long term, it's quite limiting.

 

 

If you think this is going to end any time soon, or even within our lifetimes, I have bad news for you. If you think this issue goes well beyond any reasonable desire for fairness in representation and avoidance of stereotyping and sexism in media, you would be correct. Phrases like "moral panic" come to mind. To help understand what's really at work here, this was written by one Charles MacKay back in 1841:

 

"In reading the history of nations, we find that, like individuals, they have their whims and their peculiarities; their seasons of excitement and recklessness, when they care not what they do. We find that whole communities suddenly fix their minds upon one object, and go mad in its pursuit; that millions of people become simultaneously impressed with one delusion, and run after it, till their attention is caught by some new folly more captivating than the first. We see one nation suddenly seized, from its highest to its lowest members, with a fierce desire of military glory; another as suddenly becoming crazed upon a religious scruple ... Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."

 

The compulsion for all women in media to "want independent adventure, like books, not be beauty or girly obsessed, and all that other stuff" as you put it, or else women in refrigerators, is one of these cultural obsessions. Fortunately, I suppose, this one is relatively benign. Stagnancy and philistinism in art and media, at least where the portrayal of women is concerned, isn't so bad, on the grand scheme of things. But moral panics that involve preoccupation with media corrupting the youth somehow or another and thus needing to be whitewashed somehow or another are as old as media itself. When this obsession blows over, it will only be when another, greater threat to the public good takes hold and replaces it.

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Yeah it did. The only issue they will have to work around is she mentions something about walking away from mankind a hundred years ago or something like that. Makes it hard for a sequel unless we pretend she never said it.

I assume the sequel will be post Justice League

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Female representation in entertainment didn't shift the day She-Ra or Xena came out.

 

1. It didn't?

2. If the modern vanguard of female heroes of Buffy and Xena didn't shift representation in entertainment, then what in the world is so important about a female character doing well in one more genre? A character that has been around since before Pearl Harbor and is the 3rd most important D.C. has behind Superman and Batman, often put on equal footing with them as a trinity, so it's not exactly a shock that she did well.

 

 

 

I feel like you're saying there's no need to debate civil rights because all our laws now say we are equal, end of story.

 

So not wading into the minefield of modern civil rights on the Wonder Woman thread.

 

The difference is Xena and Buffy were syndicated genre heroes targeted at a specific genre audience. Not a slight-- but Wonder Woman is different as it is a four quadrant wide-reaching hit film with a very broad cross-over audience. It's also, behind the scenes, a major shake up to the Hollywood system that says women cannot direct or star in A-list tentpole blockbusters. It's also the first film in the DC movie universe, (a universe that should be a no-brain superhit at everything) that has been liked almost universally.

Ripley almost did it in Aliens.
In Hollywood people are only given power if they can "open." Meaning a star or director or type of movie that will be a hit out of the gate. Because it happens so infrequently that a female driven picture opens, studios are reticent to go with it. Which becomes the catch-22, it can't be proven if the chance is never given. When people talk about what's historic and Hollywood-changing about Wonder Woman, it is this.
And I was using civil rights as another example of how, despite the topic, your rhetoric follows certain patterns.
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1. I think you overemphasize the importance of Hollywood. In this they're a definite lagging indicator because the mega budgets and overseas considerations have made the studios very conservative in what they release. Other media have been filled with girls and women as the protagonists and creators for the last few decades. That's why I'm sitting here going, "Why's this a big deal?" As someone who prefers my protagonists being women, I've been getting a steady diet and have barely even noticed films being behind. And there's enough diversity of characters in those that I don't have to worry so much about the women fitting that cookie cutter role model expectation. They can actually represent, y'know, a multi-dimensional person.

 

As far as changing American tastes and willingness to accept a woman as a lead hero, I would say that Linda Carter's Wonder Woman was a whole lot more important 40 years ago. We got The Bionic Woman, Charlie's Angels, and others in its wake.

 

2. I don't think this changes much because the results are not replicable. Wonder Woman is the most iconic female superhero in comics. This wasn't a big gamble on the part of the studio, it was a layup that they managed not to blow. Rey in Star Wars also can't be transferred because that's Star Wars and nothing else is Star Wars. I'm sure that Captain Marvel movie will do great as well because Marvel.

 

As it goes, Katniss Everdeen and Bella Swan probably did more to convince Hollywood since that was more of a legit groundswell for a chance a studio took. And there actually have been a series of movies starring female heroes based on novels. Unfortunately, Divergent was as close to a success as we've seen, and that had severe diminishing returns, and a lot of other movies like The Host and Vampire Academy fell off a cliff.

 

But a woman succeeding in what is already a surefire hit? Will studios be willing to place their bets any more now because Wonder Woman almost did as good as Suicide Squad, the terrible movie where even those familiar with comic books had never heard of half the characters?

 

3. The lack of female directors is a pure internal Hollywood issue. Maybe it's just me, but I'm not even sure directors even sell movies much anymore.

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1. I think you overemphasize the importance of Hollywood. In this they're a definite lagging indicator because the mega budgets and overseas considerations have made the studios very conservative in what they release. Other media have been filled with girls and women as the protagonists and creators for the last few decades. That's why I'm sitting here going, "Why's this a big deal?" As someone who prefers my protagonists being women, I've been getting a steady diet and have barely even noticed films being behind. And there's enough diversity of characters in those that I don't have to worry so much about the women fitting that cookie cutter role model expectation. They can actually represent, y'know, a multi-dimensional person.

We're not talking about other media-- we're talking about why Wonder Woman is important to movies. Nowhere have we talked about video games or books, you've just pulled that out now.

 

Obviously you have Rey and Katniss, and Ripley-- but none of them were directed by a woman. None of them were an icon that had been actively and intentionally blocked from getting the same treatment as her peers.

 

 

2. I don't think this changes much because the results are not replicable. Wonder Woman is the most iconic female superhero in comics. This wasn't a big gamble on the part of the studio, it was a layup that they managed not to blow. Rey in Star Wars also can't be transferred because that's Star Wars and nothing else is Star Wars. I'm sure that Captain Marvel movie will do great as well because Marvel.

This is where you're missing the point I think. It's not just about the character and a female protagonist. It's about the scale of the movie, the subtext of the story, and the fact a woman directed it.

 

Luke Cage was equally important. Despite being flawed, it was the biggest studio in Hollywood, carrying the most popular IP out there, on the hottest distribution platform, with an all black cast, and a black show-runner. That's never been done before, and that is important.

 

As it goes, Katniss Everdeen and Bella Swan probably did more to convince Hollywood since that was more of a legit groundswell for a chance a studio took. And there actually have been a series of movies starring female heroes based on novels. Unfortunately, Divergent was as close to a success as we've seen, and that had severe diminishing returns, and a lot of other movies like The Host and Vampire Academy fell off a cliff.

Those properties didn't translate to women heroes being bankable-- that was a case of YA fiction being seen as bankable-- as your example attest to. And again, only one of those movies (the first Twilight I believe) was directed by a woman.

 

But a woman succeeding in what is already a surefire hit? Will studios be willing to place their bets any more now because Wonder Woman almost did as good as Suicide Squad, the terrible movie where even those familiar with comic books had never heard of half the characters?

In terms of audience targeting, yes. Female audiences have proven they can add significantly to the summer blockbuster genre, which has been programmed toward males since Star Wars invented the ****.

 

3. The lack of female directors is a pure internal Hollywood issue. Maybe it's just me, but I'm not even sure directors even sell movies much anymore.

It's just you. Maybe mainstream audiences don't have a favorite director like they do an actor, or IP-- but I promise you that outside of Marvel, studios don't like taking chances on people who don't have a git under their belt. Obviously the lack of female directors is a Hollywood issue-- one that Wonder Woman has helped amend ever so slightly.

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I'd like to chip in that a woman directed the greatest Hollywood blockbuster of all time.. (And perhaps most poignant film ever made that explores undercover police work and the ethical quandaries said work creates when one identifies with ones suspects, and indeed finds friendships with those suspects) ...POINT BREAK.

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We're not talking about other media-- we're talking about why Wonder Woman is important to movies. Nowhere have we talked about video games or books, you've just pulled that out now.

 

I've been mentioning other media and how there are plenty of female leads running around in our mass market entertainment for days. For example, this from 6/13:

 

I mean, if we want to talk about representation, the various media are awash in positive female role models. Movies might be a bit behind because of money considerations, but I have no difficulty reading books and finding television shows with plenty of girl leads written by women. And it seems every time I watch a kids' network with my nephew, there's a new commercial telling girls they can do anything. To me, all this is old hat. Xena, Buffy, and Captain Janeway happened 20 years ago now. Even a show like Game of Thrones which made a name for itself by exploiting its actresses' boobs is pretty much being run by women at last viewing.

 

And the frequency of women in other media is important to note because it means that big Hollywood is just behind the curve.

 

 

 

Those properties didn't translate to women heroes being bankable-- that was a case of YA fiction being seen as bankable-- as your example attest to.

 

Yes, and the young adult section is absolutely swimming in girls as the protagonists written by female authors. Just by having a young adult boomlet, we saw an increase in girls in lead roles in at least medium-sized movies. Sadly, the fervor for the next Katniss or Bella seems to have died down.

 

But at least the young adult boomlet actually happened, and Lionsgate is presumably out there still looking to find the next big thing in young adult. One of these days we'll probably get a Red Queen and Selection movie made. I'm not convinced Wonder Woman does anything. If Katniss and Bella are examples not of women heroes being bankable, but YA being bankable, then surely Wonder Woman is merely an example of a comic book movie being bankable. Something that we kinda already knew.

 

But if you're not Warner Bros. Disney, or Fox how does that help you? All the most bankable super heroines are concentrated in those three studios. At least the young adult boomlet was something that any studio, big or small, could dive into. There's not another Wonder Woman to be had. Even Disney is reaching a bit with Captain Marvel considering she's a rather low-tier character, but they have the Marvel name and even their reaches have payed off.

 

 

 

None of them were an icon that had been actively and intentionally blocked from getting the same treatment as her peers.

 

Unless I'm missing something, I don't see how Wonder Woman got blocked. It's been my understanding that we never got a Wonder Woman movie because Warner Bros. is generally incompetent where it comes to their comic book properties. They completely failed to release anything during the early phases of comics being hot properties in the early-00s. And when they finally did, it was a female lead! Sadly, that lead happened to be Catwoman...

 

Miller's Justice League fell through because they lost a tax break, Petersen almost made a Batman vs. Superman movie and then made Troy instead, like five different attempts at a Batman movie fell through, and let's not even get started on the epic tale of Superman Lives/Returns. The Green Lantern film was supposed to start the universe, and they scrapped all the plans after it failed. Even that Catwoman movie took like 10 years to finally get made.

 

I know Wonder Woman was in development and had Joss Whedon attached to write and direct, but given the chaos in the studio and how difficult a time they had getting anything to the screen, I'm dubious that it fell through because it starred a woman when general incompetence is the more likely explanation.

 

 

 

but none of them were directed by a woman.

 

Okay, you've kinda retreated to the woman as director thing as being most important and I'll use this quote to address it in general. Maybe that's important to the Hollywood crowd and the general hypocrisy that Hollywood doesn't let women direct big films or even smaller ones for the most part, but it sure as heck doesn't make Wonder Woman a better movie. There's little in this movie I can see that makes me think that having a woman as director made much of a difference at all. In the end, it's a story beyond what's actually on the screen. And, considering I, and most people, only judge a movie based on what's actually on the screen, putting so much emphasis on what's going on behind the camera doesn't make for a compelling argument for why the movie itself is better or why anyone should like it more.

 

Luke Cage was equally important. Despite being flawed, it was the biggest studio in Hollywood, carrying the most popular IP out there, on the hottest distribution platform, with an all black cast, and a black show-runner. That's never been done before, and that is important.

 

Okay, I'm totally flummoxed by this one because there have been a ton of films and TV shows starring black performers and/or with black talent behind the camera that have been more popular and critically successful than Luke Cage. Luke Cage kinda just came and went as far as I could tell.

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Again, I'm talking about context, scope of target audience, behind the scenes business, and content. Obviously there have been black shows run by black people-- but not from Disney on Netflix as part of the biggest IP currently running.

 

Clearly after all these years I just won't learn my lesson. At this point I'm just repeating myself.

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While true other people, characters and franchises have done their part to break down walls, it is disingenuous to suggest their success is like what has occurred with Wonder Woman.

 

e.g. Social feeds throw out films like Red Sonja as comparison, a movie with a horrid plot, acting and stunts which made approx 7mil total. Or likely facetiously in this thread Point Break was dropped, a film which failed to perform in comparison to action films of the time. Aliens is a good argument, however it must be fairly noted that Ripley and the Xenomorphs became iconic and was not a case of a major studio push to establish and support a female in the action genre. Although it is fair to prop Tomb Raider as being notable for that. Lastly the Hunger Games are probably the best comparison, but even then it lacks all the components for which Wonder Woman is being praised for and it's lifetime gross pace is equal to Wonder Woman's in it's two weeks of release.

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Again, I'm talking about context, scope of target audience, behind the scenes business, and content.

 

And once again, I was talking about the quality of the movie.

 

I get that you work behind the scenes and all that, but movies aren't better because Hollywood's done a lousy job hiring women in the past. It's not like audiences were going "I'm not seeing that movie, it was directed by a woman!" The execs might like hiring directors that are known quantities, but again, I'm not sure we're in an era where "Directed by" has the same value that it used to. At this point I think it's more about the execs being comfortable that the person they're hiring has a track record of getting the movie done without the production turning into a mess.

 

But that's all not my problem.

 

 

 

While true other people, characters and franchises have done their part to break down walls, it is disingenuous to suggest their success is like what has occurred with Wonder Woman.

 

I'm suggesting that Wonder Woman's success is no surprise and no big breakthrough at all. This is just the latest example showing that as a society we're well beyond the point where this is a thing, and not even the biggest. It's not going to get near Hunger Games, nevermind The Force Awakens. I question whether it will even match Alice in Wonderland.

 

Aside from the woman director and doing good in yet another genre, where's the big breakthrough? You're acting as though this is some sort of cultural touchstone of a movie when it'll be, at best, the 3rd biggest movie starring a woman this year.

 

 

 

Obviously there have been black shows run by black people-- but not from Disney on Netflix as part of the biggest IP currently running.

 

And that's what I was talking about with Robin. You're drilling things down to be way too specific. Of course it hasn't been done before, because Netflix original programming and the broader Marvel universe are only a few years old. You're acting like there was some sort of long-neglected gap when it was only the 3rd show of its type and relatively low-stakes at that.

 

But the greater success of other shows starring and produced by black people kinda shows that it wasn't exactly a huge risk for Disney to do that. Blacks in media do well and have for quite some time now. There was no pioneering path here.

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I think its kind of funny this conversation is happening when Poe didn't even take a dump on this movie. He just said he found it disappointing cause he had high expectations, then outlined them. Like inconsistency in tone and some character behaviour things.. and then whammo. We're in gender disparity town. Its been a great read.

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There was no pioneering path here.

There absolutely was. For both Luke Cage and Wonder Woman.

 

I refuse to say you don't get it-- because this is more of a case as you WON'T get it because you don't agree with it.

 

I've accused you before of being willfully obstinate, of playing dumb, to focusing in on the semantics of words instead of the points I am making-- but whatever. I just can't do this anymore.

 

No one wants to see you vs. me for the 4562345245th time.

 

So you win.

 

Your technique of debate, of exhausting anyone who disagrees with you to the extent that you force them to simply give up is superior. Okay?

 

Talking to you has ruined so many of my days-- and now you basically have me questioning my own ability to make a point since you utterly refuse to even pretend to understand me. Given that my job pretty much depends on me being able to use words effectively you've thrown me into a space of self-doubt to the extent that the notes I just got on a job have thrust me into a downward spiral.

 

So you win. Okay? Movies, politics, global warming, kids in hoodies being shot, the cold war-- whatever. You win. You're right. You've always been right. Sleep well at night knowing you're superior to everyone else simply because you have an unbending will and absolutely zero interest in anything other than your own point of view.

 

But that's fine-- not your fault. I am the idiot here. I'm the one that hasn't learned the lesson. I am the dumb ass for spending literal years of my life trying to get you to see an opposing point of view on anything from movies to politics-- but you just won't. I'm a jackass for wasting my own time and letting this bother me so much.

 

I've already yelled at my kid for having a semantical argument with me, blown off work for the day cause I'm afraid to work, and snapped at a few people because I am so annoyed and pissed off that you just dismiss every damn thing everyone says to you and wondering why you are the way you are.

 

But I just can't do this anymore. It's literally effecting my real life and it's super not worth that.

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I think its kind of funny this conversation is happening when Poe didn't even take a dump on this movie. He just said he found it disappointing cause he had high expectations, then outlined them. Like inconsistency in tone and some character behaviour things.. and then whammo. We're in gender disparity town. Its been a great read.

Well in fairness it's not like a quicky-review was dropped and then people ripped that opinion. There are a series of expanded thoughts which fueled further "discussion".

 

Do you even social, bro? ;-)

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Yeah I know, I read the posts and all the little conversational steps that it took to create the perfect storm that this turned into. I'm a lurker you see. Read lots here post kinda little. I was also sort of being glib.

 

But in truth, I can see both points of view. Poe and Driver each have sound arguments and are both kind of right IMO, there is definitely a middle ground that could be reached. But fuck being the person trying to mediate that.

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But in truth, I can see both points of view. Poe and Driver each have sound arguments and are both kind of right IMO, there is definitely a middle ground that could be reached. But **** being the person trying to mediate that.

Yeah. When it comes to issues of representation in media and the whole dynamic of identity politics (bleh!) behind it, It's the obstinacy in both camps, and the anxieties underlying said obstinacy more than the actual positions taken that I find noteable. I suppose I would be a tad bit closer to Poe's position on this overall, but I really don't have any irons in the fire at this point. If a film comes out that is entirely directed and produced by women, that features exclusively female leads, if not an exclusively female cast, and is intended to be enjoyed exclusively by women, I could honestly care less. Am I going to go see Wonder Woman? No. But I didn't go and see Super Man either. No interest. So at least I'm consistent.

 

But I would be kind of suspicious of the Mara Jade Skywalkers of this world who strike me as being excessively preoccupied with identity to the point of obsession, and would need a constant deluge of such films to quench their need for constant acknowledgement of the greatness of their gender. I refer to my allusions to Volkisch in my previous post. Very similar dynamic.

 

But just as ridiculous do I find the anxieties displayed by certain kinds of men towards releases like Wonder Woman, or to Rey's character in the new Star Wars films, or their cries of cultural appropriation against an all female Ghostbusters reboot, or anything like that. This just reeks of castration anxiety to me. A mirror image of the kind of fears of male virility that underlie a lot of pop cultural feminism. And we're seeing a very toxic interplay between these two camps repeat itself over and over and over again on social media. Donglegate, Elavatorgate, Shirtstorm, Gamergate. On and on and on. If you ask me, it would be kind of nice if the redpills and manosphere types, AND the 3rd wave feminists, could take their sexual hangups and their parental issues to the psychologist's office, where they belong. If nothing else, our geek culture would be far better for it.

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