Tank

BTW-- this isn't a read only sort of thing. We're posting at the same time so as to not derail ourselves, feel free to agree/disagree comment or making statements of you're own. I only ask that once we move onto the next section, we MOVE ON. If need be i can move out any discussions that seem to derail to a new thread.

Are you going to be doing this for all of the prequels ?

I THINK SO!

And here we go!

Opening Scroll

Turmoil has engulfed the Galactic Republic. The taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems is in dispute.

Hoping the resolve the matter with a blockade of deadly battleships, the greedy Trade Federation has stopped all shipping to the small planet of Naboo.

While the Congress of the Republic endlessly debates this alarming chain of events, the Supreme Chancellor has secretly dispatched two Jedi Knights, the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy, to settle the conflict...

-Much has been made over the years as to how the opening of TPM is merely a bunch of boring legalese while the scrolls of the Original Trilogy spoke of rebellions and secret planet destroying superweapons.

 

-In this I think both the critics and Lucas missed the mark. TPM is a time of relative peace. The Old Republic is rotting from within, but, the Naboo conflict aside, it is essentially the calm before the storm. In that sense it's really a standalone movie depicting the Golden Age which was lost than it is a part of a trilogy. The idea that an opening scroll for a galaxy that has been at peace longer than Yoda's been alive (which we all knew coming in) was going to lack the fireworks of the other scrolls. It's a theme which I believe the detractors missed a great many times in their criticism.

 

-Where Lucas went wrong was in attempting to fabricate a crisis. It's surprising since he remembered what the movie was about in the title. There is a Phantom Menace out there pulling the strings, causing relatively minor issues to lay the seeds for the oppressive Empire we'll be seeing in later films. The New Republic was obviously in no great turmoil at the beginning of the movie and there should never have been an attempt to claim so. Following up a claim of turmoil with a taxation dispute was weak and just asking for trouble, and, worse, tramples on the theme of Rome on the verge of collapse without anyone noticing.

 

-A proper opening scroll would started with a declaration of a time of peace being disturbed by those pesky Trade Federation opportunists who are now blockading poor Naboo. But don't you worry, because the Chancellor has dispatched two of the legendary supermen Jedi to resolve the conflict post-haste. But in the shadows...

 

-Lucas would have still been accused of providing a boring start, but at least he wouldn't have lowered himself to pretending that the tax code is on par with the Death Star.

I've never been a fan of the TPM scroll. To be fair, I was never a fan of ROTJs scroll either. ANH and ESB have this cadence to them that helps set-up the backstory and more importantly the MacGuffin/mission, which are crucial to Star Wars films in my opinion.

 

ANH tells us about the civil war and the Death Star plans and Darth Vader and the Princess and the spaceship and CUE EXPLOSIONS. ESB was all about Vader wanting Luke (for what!? Who knows!? Exciting!) and the rebellion struggling to use the Death Star victory to gain momentum--but guess what, Vader won't let them.

 

The TPM crawl reads like a news brief that doesn't really spell out any excitement. The Old Republic is mention, and that's cool... but first time impressions: "who's Naboo? Who's the Trade Federation? Why should I care? It's not a grand statement about rebels fighting the Empire. Granted those factions don't exist yet, but I feel like the crawl generally establishes key plot points, and here they are (as Obi-wan says very soon) elusive. If this were a news brief, there is a very important factor missing: the WHY.

 

Why is Naboo being blockaded? Now granted, first time seeing this I could cut the crawl slack. It's not THAT big of an idea, but it filled me with questions off the bat, and they were questions that went unanswered. Does this movie suck 30 seconds in? No, not at all. Like I said, ROTJ had a lackluster crawl as well. The first time I read the TPM crawl it didn't excite me, and while that isn't a crime or a portent of doom, it was a missed opportunity.

Sequence 1: Arrival of the Jedi

The Jedi arrive at the blockade and are granted permission to dock at the Trade federation flagship. TC-14 leads Jedi Qui-Gon and young Obi-Wan to a meeting room to wait for the Nemoidians to arrive. Obi-Wan senses an allusive danger, but is advised by Qui-Gon to keep his focus on the mission in front of them. Qui-Gon believes the Trade Federation will fold quickly.

-Some FX shots of ships and droids to start the movie, and they hold up much better than the Special Edition ships we saw only two years earlier. I always thought the droid fighters walking around with the rest of the crew was a pretty nifty idea too, even if I never could figure out why it would be necessary.

 

-Right off the bat we get two interesting voices coming from the Jedi shuttle captain and the Nemoidian. I've got a thing for chicks with scratchy voices so I naturally approve of using her. The Nemoidians got some flack for their voices too, but the fact that we get two so early should tell us that it was a goal of the movie to vary the voices so that the audience would receive different cadences (we'll see this again with the Gungans, Watto, and secondary characters such as the race announcer). I suspect we have Ben Burtt to thank for the constant change-ups, which I mostly approve of.

 

-A droid model similar to C-3PO shows up to give some immediate continuity with the previous movies, while playing with our heads a bit by giving it a female voice (but similar mannerisms).

 

-"I have a bad feeling about this". A simultaneous bit of continuity and fanservice, as well as an attempt to famous phrase out of the way.

 

-Obi-Wan states here that Yoda was one of his teachers. We'll see in the next movie that he teaches all the young Jedi students. Just to toot my own horn, it was my theory early post-TPM that Yoda did exactly that. This knowledge should have stopped the continuity detractors from complaining, but oddly they still state that this is some sort of error to this day.

 

-Qui-Gon speaks of the Living Force, which, according to the source material, is in dichotomy with the Unifying Force. Qui-Gon's reliance on the Living Force marks him as a bit of a free lancer in comparison with the more conservative followers of the Unifying Force (including Obi-Wan). Of course there's no way the average audience member could know this without at least reading the novelization.

 

-This is the first (and barely remembered) attempt of the movie to expand our understanding of the Force and what Jedi had studied and knew about it. We’ll also learn about midichlorians later. In future movies the Force largely reverts back to the amorphous will of the galaxy we knew from the Original Trilogy.

 

-I always wondered if this was a case of Lucas backing off of original plans for this stuff or there just being a bunch of superfluous ideas that found their way into the first Prequel, but time (or listening to criticism) kept the stray ideas out of the next few movies.

 

-Qui-Gon predicts a quick end to the problem now that they are on scene. The first instance of the theme of Jedi arrogance.

Red spaceship = cool. I feel like saying something as I flies by... it's just a cool ship. It's clearly a cousin to the Blockade Runner, so it's a fun call back. But it's got that Star Wars look, albeit a little cleaner--but given when this film is happening, that's cool.

 

The Nemoidians. With the weird voices. This particular bit is brief enough that you just sort of roll with it, but it immediately I found it odd. My first impression, just based on "As you know, our blockade is perfectly legal" is one of curiosity. I like that he sounds alien, the prosthetic/mask work is great, the pronunciation doesn't bother me as much as the cadence. But you know--he is an alien. Iâ'll come back to this in scenes when they talk again.

 

The girl 3P0 is amusing, and I have always liked the entrance of the Jedi with the hoods up. They're mysterious and have an air of both nobility and power about them. It immediately reminds me of Luke's intro in ROTJ when he shows up at Jabba's confident and in control of his power. Even as a kid I could see how far Luke had come. Knowing this is the golden age of the Jedi, I'm immediately cued to the fact that these two Jedi are badass.

 

When the hoods drop and we meet Obi-wan and Qui-Gom we get the famous running line "I've got a bad feeling about this" which is cool, but then it stumbles into Qui-Gon talking about the living force. It's difficult to talk about things when I know what's coming, but at the time, seeing this scene for the first time I wasn't bothered. It as interesting that Qui-gon had some sort of different take on the force than what we've heard so far. While this is technically the first Star Wars film, it is actually the fourth, and I was very wary about changing the rules four films into an established set up. But, and this is key, at the time I assumed it was a set-up for a pay off.

 

The exchange between the Jedi has three little beats: one, Obi-wan mentions Yoda; two, Obi-wan senses a darker force at work, while Qui-gon does not; and three, Qui-gon says the Federation is cowardly.

 

I'd like to say I went into TPM completely blind, but I didn't. I know the Yoda line is fan service to acknowledge the set-up from ESB that Yoda trained Obi-Wan, but at the same time, Qui-Gon is really his mentor here. It's explained, and it doesn't violate continuity--but when ghostie Ben says "Yoda--the Jedi master who instructed me" it felt like the sort of mentor role we say Yoda Take with Luke, that clearly Qui-Gon has with Obi-wan.

 

The Federation being cowardly line backs up the "greedy" descriptor in the crawl, confirming that yes, these are the bad guys

 

Foresight: Obi-wan knows something is else is out there. This struck me as interesting that Obi-wan was hip to something Qui-gon was not. The fact that Qui-gon goes into his living force malarkey makes me think that it IS malarkey since the name of the damn movie is the PHANTOM MENACE and we all know that the one-day-to-be Emperor is out there someplace.

Sequence 2: Consulting Lord Sidious

The Nemoidians learn that the ambassadors are Jedi Knights and promptly wet themselves. TC-14 is sent back to distract the Jedi. Lord Sidious is contacted and he gives the order land troops on Naboo and assassinate the Jedi.

-This sequence is essentially a few minutes of exposition to set up the action sequence to follow. It also introduces Lord Sidious as the puppet-master of the crisis.

 

-TC-14 brings the Jedi tea and a large, smooth metal shaft on a tray. Presumably this is a foolproof method for distracting Jedi.

 

-Qui-Gon declares the trade dispute trivial. This pretty much refutes the Opening Scroll's contention that the whole galaxy is in turmoil over it. At least the movie itself is getting things right in regards to the severity of the situation.

 

-Sidious's use of "stunted slime" as an insult fits with the rather weak name-calling of the Original Trilogy (old-fossil, overweight glob of grease, scruffy-looking nerf herder), but probably wasn't the best way to introduce the scary big bad of the movie.

 

-The Nemoidians are scared when they find out that there are Jedi on board. They fatalistically predict their own destruction several times even after their attack on the Jedi begins. Yet they follow Sidious's commands without hesitation. A much more effective way of demonstrating the big bad's power.

I always loved how the Nemoidians go into panic mode over the fact there are Jedi. Once again, we get an idea of the power, respect and even fear surrounding them. "They're here to force a settlement" clues in that they do have some sort of legal power, but it also confuses me a bit as to how exactly this galaxy works. It seems like the TF is a company, where as the Naboo are a society.

 

As has been implied, the TF reveals they are operating on orders from somebody else, the titular Phantom Menace- Darth Sidious, who old fans know instantly to be the yet-to-be-crowned Emperor. The exchange is shades of ESB where Sidious is comfortable sitting in the wings making others do his dirty work. The thing about this scene that disappointed me, and it’s not a huge deal, is that he's introduced so blase-- a behind shot of a fizzly hologram. When we first saw him in ESB he was giant freaking head that cinema's most recognized villain was bowing to. I guess I wanted a similar introduction here. While he may not have the political power he has in ESB, he is still the root of evil and I wanted to see that the TF were actually more afraid of him then they are of the Jedi.

 

It's at this point that the Nemoidian speech starts to bother me. Not in a PC, making fun of Japanese people way(that criticism came later and while I understand it, it didn't occur to me when I first saw the film.) It's hard to ignore once it's been brought up-- but mostly, both on first impression and now, I find it jarring. It’s the cadence more than the word pronunciation. It's jarring and clunky and I think it is hard to follow. In the OT all aliens save for Admiral Ackbar spoke in their own languages, and everyone just understood each other. When it was needed, it was subtitled (unless you're Chewbacca). There's probably too much dialog with these guys to subtitle, but that voice has become annoying 10 minutes into the film.

 

I know it's early, but in general I'm struggling to get exactly what is going on. The crawl says the galaxy is in turmoil, but the blockade is apparently legal. The Jedi have been dispatched in secret to negotiate, and have the legal authority, but Sidious sees this as some sort of protocol breach on the part of the Chancellor. It's HIS plan, and the TF is rolling with it. I'm not a slow person, and I don't demand plot points be fed to me as fast as possible--but Star Wars has a style, and it's that Macguffin/mission set up. In ANH, it's the death star plans that drive the action. In ESB, it's Vader trying to find Luke. In ROTJ, it's Luke taking down the Empire. Every scene and plot point in each of those films is locked into those narrative thrusts. Star Wars is fast, visual and mythic. So I'm not an idiot and impatient for the mystery to be revealed, but at this point, even 10-15 minutes in, I really feel like we should know what's going on, and we don't. I mean I can figure it out, but I feel like I shouldn't have to because it's Star Wars! Why is Naboo blockaded specifically? What does the Trade Federation get out of this? IS it a big deal or not? If this is normal for Jedi business, why is it a secret they are here? I don't think it's bad to have these questions now, although it seems clunky.

Sequence 3: Jedi Ambush

The Nemoidians attempt to kill the Jedi via gassing. When that fails the Jedi head towards the bridge destroying a small army of droids along the way, but are finally repelled by more powerful droidekas. While running, the Jedi come across the invasion army which will soon depart for Naboo. They decide to stow away with the invasion and head for the surface.

-So long sexy voice captain. You have the distinction of being the first (well, and that other guy) casualty of the Star Wars.

 

-Don't care what anyone says. I like the battledroid's clueless little chatter.

 

-A neat way to reintroduce lightsabers through the fog. It gives the weapons a bit of life of their own.

 

-Here's where we're put on notice. In this Trilogy, Jedi will cut loose. We saw a bit of it in Return of the Jedi where Luke flashed his lightsaber a bit more frequently against people during the rescue sequence at Jabba's, but otherwise that trilogy hardly ever showed lightsabers being used unless it was against Sith/Jedi, snow monsters, or bar drunks. It's one of those things that lets us know we're seeing an age of Jedi where they flash their weapons easily and often.

 

-Another cool little image where Qui-Gon melts the door with his lightsaber. It's a bit unfortunate they never really went back to that image again except for collateral damage effects.

 

-You must wonder why they didn't send their most deadly droids down to take care of the Jedi in the first place.

 

-The Jedi have super-speed apparently (for a moment anyway). Another cool(?) little thing that was never again revisited. It also makes them semi-translucent.

 

-Super speed feels like it's in the same vein as the Force stuff. Little additions like that make me lean more towards the idea that Lucas just had too many ideas because of the length of the production. It's like a pilot for a television show that technically has a lot more stuff added to it, but which is different and somehow inferior from the rest of the series. Without the same budget and time, all the cool stuff and ambition from the pilot is forgotten in favor of a more streamlined approach which is easier to produce and which the audience feels more comfortable.

 

-And here we have an army. Of course we already knew the Trade Federation planned to invade. Perhaps it would have been wise to hold off on that information earlier and just have Sidious tell them to move up their plans. A small correction though.

 

-I do wonder how they're going to warn anybody about an invasion when they'll technically be a part of the invasion. Eh well.

Let's kill the Jedi! Blow their ride and gass 'em! I love the quick-draw sabers. I think that was a cheer moment in the theater. The battle droids make interesting foes-- but I wish they'd looked like IG-88 for some fun continuity.

 

The first lightsaber action of the PT is pretty cool and flashy. It's like Luke on the sail barge times 100.

 

Again, seeing that the TF guys were more scared of Sidious would have helped here, because they are scared of the Jedi. Their panic is great, and Qui-gon making short work of their door is cool. I know people say his hands would have been burned--but it looks cool. I was waiting for Nute or Dofine or whatever the scared TF guy was called to go into some sort of 'Nam flashback about Jedi laying the smackdown.

 

The destroyers/droidekas/wheel droids are fun with their shields, but it prompts the Jedi so super-ran down the hall which was both cool and confusing. We can't assume that just because Luke didn't do it, it doesn't exist--so I went in expecting to see some cool Jedi action. And really, it's not so out of line with Luke's repeated use of the super-force jump. But it begs the question--if Jedi can move superfast like that, why don't they ever do it again?

 

The shot of Obi-wan and Qui-gon jumping out of the ventilation shafts is probably the first (sadly not last) time I feel like CGI shouldn't have been used. It's a quick shot, but it looks off. The weight of those tiny computer jedi seems like a video game.

 

"You were right!" A little glib line, perfectly in line with the humor of Star Wars. Qui-gon preceeds this with more politico speak that makes me again question the balance of power and who wants what. Is Naboo important or not?

In introducing my son to Star Wars, I watched Phantom Menace for the first time in easily 5 or 6 years. A few things struck me-- it wasn't quite as bad as recalled, and it felt more "Star Wars" then I've been admitting to for a decade now. That said, I do still think it is a movie full of some bad ideas, poor execution and sloppy film making. I have been bashing this movie for so long with general call backs and half-memories, and I'd like to hone that film-snob angst.

I've often said I love the story of PT, but I hate the execution. When my son was watching it I was half-paying attention. So, I had the idea to watch the film again, without distraction, and to take it scene by scene and try to piece together exactly where and how it goes off the rails for me. It's almost like a DVD commentary/review hybrid, so I thought it would be fun to do it for everyone to follow along.

To make it interesting, I've asked Thomas Alan (Son of Lucas to you old timers) to go through the same process at the same time with me. Thomas is my perfect foil as we are of similar age, we were raised on the same genre entertainment, we're politically opposite and we've both been here about the same amount of time. Thomas created one of my favorite threads-- the EXPLAIN ANY AND EVERY INCONSISTENCY IN THE PT EVER thread. Some would call him a PT apologist, but for him, the films worked.

What we're going to do here, is every few days we'll post commentary for a handful of scenes. We're going to post our bits simultaneously. This isn't to say you all can't join in and/or follow along, it's just that knowing the nature of this site (and how Thomas and I interact) I worry about getting derailed once the posts start to pile up. This is meant to be more of a opposing views situation, instead of a point/counter point. So one of us will post the commentary, we'll all comment, then move on to the next set of scenes.

Look for the first commentary by the end of the week!

People who say "Do, What?" need to burn in hell.

Ahahah-- we must have had this thread some time in the past, because I remember this about you...

I've decided to go back and reread most of The Dresden Files. I'm starting with book 3 because I remember book one wasn't great, two I have on disc, but three (Grave Peril) hasn't been read since the first time I got into the series, some five years ago.

I picked up the first one. I haven't read a genre series in ages and everyone says Dresden is the cat's meow. You saying I shouldn't judge on book 1 alone?

Post B:

little things that annoy me: Rock's penis

 

Maybe... but it still gave your orthodontist nightmares for a week!

 

 

 

Spoiler! --Click here to view--

See, what I meant was that my penis is SO massive and that it broke all of Seth's teeth... 'cuz he's gay and stuff and wants my penis in his mouth. And with a mouth full of broken teeth, his orthodontist would be all terrified of the mess I made and it would give him multiple nightmares based on what he had to work with. ...Yeah.

:lol:

From the article

 

Update (12:07am, May 28): We just heard from a separate reliable source that Fox is possibly working on an origins story, as opposed to a straight-up remake.

 

I hope to Christ that is what they're doing

Did you see my post?

It may start life as a prequel, but if it is a hit, it will become a reboot.

I heard it was supposed to be a prequel-- which is a way of rebooting if you aren't sure you want to reboot. Casino royale, the new Star Trek, Batman Begins, each of them begun production as a "prequel" but as their buzz and power grew it became clear they were full on reboots.

copper's self respect

HAAYYYOOOOO

little things that annoy me: Rock's penis

Different forum. Different rules.

little things that annoy me: tsquare's intelligence

SEE WHAT I DID THERE

Josh Friedman told io9.com that it's full on dead, or at least, he's no longer in any control. Despite being the showrunner, Halcyon has the rights, and he was a hired gun. As far as he is concerned, the show is done. And sorry, Dexter, but he says he doesn't want to talk about what Season 3 could of been-- he'd rather fans have their own ideas and doesn't want to ruin anyone's imagination.

I meant mainstream reviews! sorry!

Box office looks to be disagreeing with you. Maybe the Fox execs saw it early?

I'm still hoping I'll dig it. I'm off to see it tomorrow.

I'm not counting it official until I see the weekend returns for Salvation.

Same here!

I wouldn't put it past the network to change their minds on this if the new movie is a monster hit this weekend. CBS changed their minds on Jericho a full month after cancelling it merely because of fan response. I can easily see Sarah Conner getting renewed for 13 episodes if Terminator does 100 mil this weekend or whatnot.

This. They had to announce their fall line-up for upfronts this week, and I'm surprised they didn't at least hold out for it as a mid-season show with a smaller episode order just in case the movie did well.

But like I said before, and Sonny is echoing it-- if Salvation does crazy money, this show will be back. In fact, if Salvation does well, that gives Halcyon and Josh Friedman a TON of ammo to shop the show to another network. It may be unlikely at this point, but I wouldn't put the show to bed just yet. Shows often move to other networks, and I've even heard rumor of this show (and Reaper) going to first-run syndication. If ANY show has the clout to do that, it would be this one (so long as Salvation is a box office success).

I'm guessing Fox is waiting to see if Salvation is a hit. If it is, they'll see the chance to attract more viewers.

BJ used to be a regular of the show....they haven't changed anything in the intro since the very first season.

Actually, the superbowl episode had the full cast in the open, and a couple weeks ago they did a silly one centered on the michael scott paper company. So it's not like they are lazy. Just seems odd he get fourth billing as cast when he's in it less than anyone else.

I always thought it was because he's a producer.

I think so-- but Kelly and Toby are two of the lead writers along with BJ and Greg Daniels.

Why is BJ Novak in the opening credits when he's got less lines than everyone else?

I think we're just looking for different things out of this show, Tank. What you consider jumping the shark I consider an awesome direction for the show to go. But that's fine, different tastes for different people. It's all good. I wouldn't even care if they went your way instead of mine as long as we got more show.

Yes but, you're wrong... because you liked Sliders.

BACK OF THE BUS

I just don't want the show to become Sliders, where every week the plot is about them entering a new timeline and trying to figure out when Judgement Day is NOW. Time travel is an element of the show, not the core conceit.

My point is, the series isn't, and was never intended to be, about one or two time travel trips. If that's what you're looking for, you're not going to find it. You're trying to make the series something it never was and was never intended to be.

 

It's a moot point now, of course, but since it is this was my last chance to oppose your point of view on this.

That's not my point.

There is this:

Moreover, didn't he say they could only send back not forward?

...which I am using to help make my point... but...

In the movie timeline? Sure, he said that. That was a different timeline with different events though.

All true... and yet...

Think about it. He didn't have the means to go back from 1984, the technology wasn't available. That's why it was a one way trip. No one said you couldn't travel FORWARD with the machine itself. Kyle's mission wasn't to go back to the future (no pun) once his mission was complete-- And John, knowing Kyle would die in the process of completing his mission, didn't bother to provide the means for him to come forward again.

...I have thought about the fact that despite Skynet's best efforts, Judgment Day was going to be freezing a lot of technology into place. Obviously the machines are able to advance themselves technologically speaking, but the core assets are going to be in play in our modern world, or a few years out.

Even with sentience and ingenuity the machines can't go leaps and bounds into advancement if you stop to think about it, given the kinds of support the technological industry requires. That said, it's very possible the gear you'd need to build their time device would be available today.

But that still isn't quite my point...

The rule still applies. It's a one way trip per Time-Displacement chamber; it always was. If there's another Time-Displacement chamber located in the destination time you're headed in, then you now have the option to time travel again, be it forward or backward.

Why can't anyone grasp that?

Settle down, Beavis, it isn't a question of grasping. I grasp it just fine. My larger point was that I feel like it jumps the shark and waters down the concept. This show was supposed to be about the Connors, and the effects the time travel has on them. In the same way a Terminator-of-the-week would get old, so would constant time travel. The out of control trips and sends were great because they never had control.

My point is that IF the show were to continue on from here, and IF John's quest was to go home, I see it no longer being a show about people effected by time travel and dealing with crazy robots, but a show about time travellers. To me, that's a big enough paradigm shift that I'd think it would get dumb.

Who knows though. Could be like Lost, which I had the same complaints about-- and yet they rapped up their crazy time drama after a few episodes.. sort of.

It's just that, they are trying to prevent Judgment Day. If time travel becomes so common and proliferated, where's the tension in a singular date?