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Nightly Group Therapy


Cerina
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Background info: 

My husband Trevor and I started dating in May 2000. We moved in with each other that summer and stayed together until October 2001. He moved out, we broke up. He eventually joined the Navy and married some random girl moments after she turned 18. I started a friends with benefits sorta thing with one of his closest friends, Jason. Jason and I kept this up for years. Real feelings developed but we never upgraded our status beyond friends with benefits. Trevor eventually left the Navy and came home, wife in tow. They divorced. I balanced a friends with benefits thing with both Trevor and Jason for about a year, but it was tumultuous to say the least. Eventually, Jason was slowly replaced by Trevor, and in 2007 I got pregnant with Noah. Trevor and I married in 2011, and things have been pretty solid with us ever since. Trevor and Jason had a falling out not too long after, and we've only seen him a small handful of times since. Also of note, about 8ish years ago another mutual friend of all of ours told Trevor and I that Jason had told her that he regrets not taking things further with me back then and that he feels I'm "the one that got away". I had always assumed that my feelings were stronger than his, and if I had known this at the time, there's a very real chance that I never would have started things back up with Trevor. 

 

Ongoing issue:

About once every 2-3 months, I have a dream about Jason that brings back all the old feelings. They're insane. The dreams are never sexual but always very intimate, usually about reuniting or finally breaking down and admitting feelings or something along those lines. Now during the normal course of my life, I don't spend any time thinking about Jason at all. And under normal circumstances, I can admit that I miss him and our friendship (we had a very close bond beyond all the sleeping together), but I don't carry any lingering feels other than that. Trevor and I even talk about him every so often as he was a huge part of both of our lives for many years and so many of our good-ol'-days memories include him in some way.

However, when these dreams happen they seriously throw me off. You guys ever have dreams that feel so real that you keep the feelings with you for hours or even days after you wake up? This happens every time. For a day or so after these dreams, I basically float about in a daze of longing and heartache. Like I said, I don't really think about him normally, but for a good 24-48 hours these feelings are very real. And then I start thinking about reconnecting - I still have Jason's number (it hasn't changed in so long that I actually have it memorized from the early '00s) and know where he works (head of security at the outlet mall). So I start envisioning myself finding him and sparking up a friendship again. (I do actually miss his friendship. He helped me deal with my and Trevor's breakup in so many ways. I would have spiraled into a much deeper depression without him.)

So I don't know what to do with all of this. I had one of these dreams last night, so today I'm sitting here in my office trying to concentrate on work but instead keep thinking about what might have been, how much it feels like I have a hole in my life from the loss of his constant friendship, and fighting the urge to text him. Like I said...the feelings are very real right now despite everything I know about my normal feelings. 

Somebody tell me that I'm not crazy. 

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I think everyone has at some point thought about an ex that "got away" or wondered what it would have been like if you had done "x" instead of "y" in a relationship.   I think it is only natural to wonder how people in your past are doing in the present, especially when it is a relationship that was during your formative years (EG teens and twenties).  I admit that I have had such thoughts about exes.  Things like wondering what they are up to, did they get married, do they have kids. Etc.  I think the worst is when you have a crush on someone and don't act on it at all, and you still have a feeling about them all those years later.  In a couple cases, I friended girls on FB I had crushes on in high school years later but did nothing about at the time, only to be disappointed at finding out that I never really knew those women in the first place and just had an idealized concept of them.   I've also had a couple ex girlfriends (while I was in a relationship with my current one) contact me out of the blue on Facebook, asking how things are, etc., but I never replied, basically because that book was closed and I didn't want to reopen it. 

In your case, I have to admit it is hard for me to imagine reconnecting with someone who was your husband's friend that you also had a relationship with, in which they had a falling out, going well.  I just don't know how this can be done without someone getting hurt, unless it is done out in the open with full disclosure to all involved, and even then, someone might get hurt there.   Perhaps some of the appeal you have is that it is a fantasy, which there is nothing wrong with having, but in my experience the "wanting" of something  feels good, but as soon as you "have it,"  you might find it is not as satisfying.  Or maybe it is the "unfinished business" part of this that is bothering you, because like you said, had one of you made clear to the other how you really felt, you might not have gotten married to your husband.  

But no, I don't think you are crazy for thinking about this or having dreams about it.  I think a lot of people go through that.  

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If there's one thing I've learned being in a serious committed relationship with somebody I love, whilst also not being monogamous and actively dating other people, it's that it is very possible to have feelings for more than one person at a time. It is NOT a normalized concept, and still seen as very fringe to most of society. Some people are absolutely wired for monogamy, some are wired for the opposite. They are both totally acceptable ways of being.

There's also so many levels of what non-monogamy can look like, and how an individual person finds the most fulfillment from it. Some people want to live in a big ol group and share each other and be in each other's lives and that concept is abhorrent to me. I don't even like my kid around all the time.

If you read my stupid relationship thread, you'll recall I discovered I can't actually maintain more than one full fledged love relationship. I don't have the bandwidth for that. But I DO have the bandwidth to have my person, and also have one or two others with whom I am in close, fun, and somewhat emotional relationships with so long as we aren't putting too many DEEP emotional needs, (like beyond casual BFF level) on each other. 

I'm not trying to make this about me, I'm just using myself as an example to say that having strong feelings about somebody other than your partner is not abnormal, or even weird. As somebody who was clearly wired for FWB relationships to some degree, you should acknowledge that your feelings for Jason, whatever they may be, don't have to have anything to do with Trevor, sexual or otherwise.

Personally, my blood boils when I hear anyone talking about their S.O.'s not being allowed friendships or contacts with others of the opposite sex. It's so old school and Puritan and unnatural and is basically misogyny at its root level.

Now I'm not saying go strike up something with Jason-- obviously it's a sticky situation and may not be for the best. But there's nothing wrong with you for regularly having warm thoughts about somebody you had feelings for at some point. To say that's not natural or normal is something a Republican youth pastor would say.

 

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Ok, in all seriousness... I probably wouldn't contact Jason. I think it has the very real ability to become an emotional connection and an easy out when/if things get hard with real life. It's an escape, and I'm wondering if that is when the dreams come up. Have things been OK with life? Not just Trevor, but life in general. Honestly I need a vacation from life in general and probably a girls weekend of not being a mom. You aren't alone if you don't want that sometimes. Just make sure your outlets are healthy.

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Trevor actually knows about my and Jason's entire history, and he also knows how much I miss him. Trevor doesn't know how often I dream about Jason or the depth of the feelings that they cause. 

Their falling out came apart when their other best friend was diagnosed with Huntington's Disease. Jason straight up told Trevor that he just couldn't handle it, and Trevor's response was "well how do you think Craig feels?" I was sorta caught in the middle there. Jason is a much more emotional person that Trevor, and they're quite unmatched in the ability to "power through" something like the slow death of a loved one. I spent years defending Jason there because I know that his initial reaction was a cry for support, and eventually he could have been supported enough to be as strong as Trevor was through the entire thing. But actually, Trevor did eventually reach a point where he couldn't handle it anymore either. Craig deteriorated rapidly for someone with HD, and it took a HUGE toll on Trevor every time we saw Craig. Trevor actually didn't see Craig the last year of his life, mostly because our own lives didn't provide much opportunity but also because it took such a toll. This also all happened about a year or so after we moved from Austin to Houston, so the physical distance also helped them along. 

All that to say, my friendship with Jason sorta fell by the wayside during all of this as well. We had no fights. Trevor never asked (and especially did not demand) that I stop being friends with Jason as well. We just drifted apart. And Trevor did apologize to him a few years ago, so they sorta made amends, but they'll never be as close again.

The last time I saw and spoke to Jason was at Craig's funeral. I'm the one who called Jason to tell him Craig had died. We actually spent nearly 2 hours on the phone that night just chatting and whatnot. And we all spent a lot of time reminiscing and catching up at the wake. This was back in September 2020. 

Back during the year or so after Trevor divorced and returned from the Navy, I was definitely deeply in love with both of them and sleeping with them both. I now know that they each felt the same, but at the time, neither one was ready to admit it to anyone (especially me) (or each other for that matter). I had a lot of resentment for each of them back then because neither relationship felt casual until they were pressed (usually not by me) then they would flip out and insist that they each were "definitely NOT dating" me. I still don't know if that was because of their relationship with each other or Trevor's recent bad marriage or Jason's twenty-something ideal of his "perfect woman" (which I was not...physically) (also...that might just be my own insecurities there because I don't recall that ever coming up...ever...). (Scratch that! The fourth member of their little boy group, Ramon, once told me that the 4 of them had all agreed that if I "lost a little weight, you'd be SUPER HOT". We don't talk to Ramon either, but in hindsight, I definitely think he had some delays and is likely on the spectrum because he would word-vomit shit like that all the time.)

Anyway, these relationships have been consuming half of my 40 year-old life, but I rarely get to talk about them in depth because I've grown apart from everyone in my life who knows the whole histories. And most of our family friends would be appalled if they knew I was sleeping with 2 guys during the same time period (though, it was more than that because those 2 stressed me out so much with their "do they or don't they" bullshit that I kept dating around...which might have also caused some of their issues since I wasn't so secretive about it...)

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On 10/4/2022 at 3:01 PM, Cerina said:

Background info: 

My husband Trevor and I started dating in May 2000. We moved in with each other that summer and stayed together until October 2001. He moved out, we broke up. He eventually joined the Navy and married some random girl moments after she turned 18. I started a friends with benefits sorta thing with one of his closest friends, Jason. Jason and I kept this up for years. Real feelings developed but we never upgraded our status beyond friends with benefits. Trevor eventually left the Navy and came home, wife in tow. They divorced. I balanced a friends with benefits thing with both Trevor and Jason for about a year, but it was tumultuous to say the least. Eventually, Jason was slowly replaced by Trevor, and in 2007 I got pregnant with Noah. Trevor and I married in 2011, and things have been pretty solid with us ever since. Trevor and Jason had a falling out not too long after, and we've only seen him a small handful of times since. Also of note, about 8ish years ago another mutual friend of all of ours told Trevor and I that Jason had told her that he regrets not taking things further with me back then and that he feels I'm "the one that got away". I had always assumed that my feelings were stronger than his, and if I had known this at the time, there's a very real chance that I never would have started things back up with Trevor. 

 

Ongoing issue:

About once every 2-3 months, I have a dream about Jason that brings back all the old feelings. They're insane. The dreams are never sexual but always very intimate, usually about reuniting or finally breaking down and admitting feelings or something along those lines. Now during the normal course of my life, I don't spend any time thinking about Jason at all. And under normal circumstances, I can admit that I miss him and our friendship (we had a very close bond beyond all the sleeping together), but I don't carry any lingering feels other than that. Trevor and I even talk about him every so often as he was a huge part of both of our lives for many years and so many of our good-ol'-days memories include him in some way.

However, when these dreams happen they seriously throw me off. You guys ever have dreams that feel so real that you keep the feelings with you for hours or even days after you wake up? This happens every time. For a day or so after these dreams, I basically float about in a daze of longing and heartache. Like I said, I don't really think about him normally, but for a good 24-48 hours these feelings are very real. And then I start thinking about reconnecting - I still have Jason's number (it hasn't changed in so long that I actually have it memorized from the early '00s) and know where he works (head of security at the outlet mall). So I start envisioning myself finding him and sparking up a friendship again. (I do actually miss his friendship. He helped me deal with my and Trevor's breakup in so many ways. I would have spiraled into a much deeper depression without him.)

So I don't know what to do with all of this. I had one of these dreams last night, so today I'm sitting here in my office trying to concentrate on work but instead keep thinking about what might have been, how much it feels like I have a hole in my life from the loss of his constant friendship, and fighting the urge to text him. Like I said...the feelings are very real right now despite everything I know about my normal feelings. 

Somebody tell me that I'm not crazy. 

Not crazy.

If you struck up the friendship, would you tell Trevor or keep it on the DL?  When, not if, the topic of sex comes up--what is your plan? 

You either have to keep that shit bottled up or be willing to engage in a side fling (no judgement) and accept the risks. 

 

 

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As the free sex non-monogamous one round here, I'd say side flings are never any good. If you have to keep something secret from Trevor, then you'll have TWO relationships with a level of dishonesty in them and that is something that only narcissists can maintain and justify long term.

 

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27 minutes ago, Hobbes said:

Not crazy.

If you struck up the friendship, would you tell Trevor or keep it on the DL?  When, not if, the topic of sex comes up--what is your plan? 

You either have to keep that shit bottled up or be willing to engage in a side fling (no judgement) and accept the risks. 

 

 

If I ever decided to reconnect, Trevor would absolutely 100% know about it first. 

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He'd likely be supportive but confused. Trevor still talks about Jason as Jason was 15ish years ago (which wasn't much different than Trevor himself was 15ish years ago tbh), so in his mind, Jason is still a single dufus who spends all of his time and money on video games and movies and works a dead end job.  

We just don't get jealous or police each other's relationships with other people. We don't really keep secrets from each other either. And not in a high and mighty, self-righteous sorta way - it's just that neither one of us has the bandwidth to bother. We have each other's emails on our phones, all of our social media stays logged in on the computer, we know the passcode to each other's phone, and we share our location with each other on Google maps, not because of any trust issues, just because it makes our lives easier to navigate. At this point, our lives are so intertwined because of our chosen lifestyle (work-from-home, stay-at-home, homeschool, scouting, etc.) that it would be nearly impossible to keep a secret anyway. We're just always together or with the kids. 

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14 hours ago, Cerina said:

He'd likely be supportive but confused. Trevor still talks about Jason as Jason was 15ish years ago (which wasn't much different than Trevor himself was 15ish years ago tbh), so in his mind, Jason is still a single dufus who spends all of his time and money on video games and movies and works a dead end job.  

We just don't get jealous or police each other's relationships with other people. We don't really keep secrets from each other either. And not in a high and mighty, self-righteous sorta way - it's just that neither one of us has the bandwidth to bother. We have each other's emails on our phones, all of our social media stays logged in on the computer, we know the passcode to each other's phone, and we share our location with each other on Google maps, not because of any trust issues, just because it makes our lives easier to navigate. At this point, our lives are so intertwined because of our chosen lifestyle (work-from-home, stay-at-home, homeschool, scouting, etc.) that it would be nearly impossible to keep a secret anyway. We're just always together or with the kids. 

I think there are four outcomes:

1. You realize that the two of you are now in two different places in life and that bond is no longer there.

2. He isn't interested in reconnecting. 

For these two, reaching out might be a good thing to be able to bring some sort of closure and possibly put an end to these feelings.

3. You do connect the friendship.  I am curious what this will look like.  You already have a full plate.  Would this friendship just bring one more thing to juggle?

4.  You rekindle a romantic connection.

IMHSO...is it worth the risk of rekindling romantic feelings (even if you don't act on them) in exchange for the benefits (and likely complications) of reintroducing a new friend in your life?

I would just keep that shit bottled up--but you are totally NOT crazy.

 

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What if it had happened the other way around, i.e. you broke up with Trevor and now had a permanent relationship with Jason? You might be having vivid dreams about Trevor, instead, and imagining what life would be like if you'd stuck with him. In other words, this could be just a matter of  the grass  appearing greener when you're looking at it from the other side of the fence. It's equally green on both sides. Don't know if that's helpful at all, but maybe it's something to think about.

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Tank has given some great insight and advice here but honestly? I don't think these dreams are any more than your brain playing "what if?"

I usually really enjoy the type of dream you're talking about; I like to say it's a dream that leaves a taste in your mouth. But I've never had one of any consequence, really. It's really possible that Jason and Trevor in your dreams are not really Jason and Trevor but representatives of others that come close to their general description.

 

That all said, you're not crazy. This is the brain's job to do while you're asleep-work shit out

 

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  • 1 month later...

So... my turn?

Things have been interesting since summer. I was noticing my anxiety was getting really bad. I went on meds for it like 12 years ago, when the kid's mother and I split up and I was having a hard time coping with that, even though logically I was happy with us splitting up.

As of late, I have a lot of anxiety around work. While screenwriting is awesome and pays really well and rarely requires me to punch a clock anywhere, it has the downside of always being temporary. Even if I staffed on some stupid procedural doctor or cop show that went on for a decade, odds are I wouldn't be there for the full run of it. Movie work lasts a few months. TV work can last for 2-3 years, and in 3-6 month chunks.

The downtime between jobs has always been hard for me, cause while I may have had a nice pay day, I may not know when the next one is coming. And in the last year, the time between jobs is getting further apart, and the pay stopped going up with experience. The mental toll the downtime takes on me is becoming unsustainable.

The anxiety really wanted this to be my fault-- something is wrong with me, I'm not good enough, etc. After having a lot of frank conversations with other writers, it's clear that it's not me. Hollywood is basically imploding right now, and it's happening on the development side, so writers are getting the worst of it. As briefly as I can say it-- streaming has taken over as being the dominant outlet for both film and TV production. Union agreements for streaming only came about after the last writer's strike in the early 2000s. That was because NBC put The Office on their website and didn't pay residuals. The WGA was able to get an agreement for "new media" that was so-so, but it was a start, and had incremental (but limited) increases. But in the last 15 years, it's become the entire business, and now, streamers can make really crappy deals with writers. I know high level vet writers making half of what they used to. On the studio side, companies are struggling to find ways to make streaming profitable. AMC just announced layoffs today because they can't figure it out. HBOMax had it dialed in, but corporate restructuring is destroying it. Netflix and Amazon basically do whatever they want.

I could talk about this all day, and maybe will in a different thread, but all this means that me making a living got a lot harder. And to combat these work conditions, there is very likely going to be writer's strike this summer, which means I can't work at all. So my anxiety has gotten over thinking I suck, but now is firmly entrenched in HOW WILL I SURVIVE. I've been doing a lot of other things and looking back to design work, and teaching, and have a few schemes... but it all takes time to establish and I am rapidly going broke.

So basically, this has been destroying my self esteem, sense of self worth, sense of being a parent that can provide for my child, and also, I realized I'd been on my meds long enough I've likely lost their efficacy. I've been trying a few different meds, and along the way got assessed and confirmed as being pretty super ADHD. I started meds for that, and upside, I am crazy efficient on them and my creative output has been ridiculous. But it doesn't help with intrusive anxiety thoughts. Tried Zoloft, but it made my junk not work. (And speaking of, all of this has made me scale back on extracurricular dating a LOT). Trying Cymbalta now, and we'll see what happens.

So I don't really have a question for the group... just saying that it's very hard to be a functional human right now.

 

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Cymbalta FTW! 

That's what I'm on too. It took a few weeks to really level me out (I was high as a kite for like the first week and that was fun). But now it keeps my anxiety under control, and I can honestly say it's been life changing. So give it some time. 

Bonus, Cymbalta also helps with old people pain as well. 

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I had no idea that was going on in Hollywood. It makes sense as you explain it. Sorry, that is tough, and I can understand why it would make you anxious. I hope the Cymbalta is effective. I have a kid on Zoloft and I'm a little unimpressed. Probably not the right med for her. But do know that working with psychiatrists and med management can be a little bit of whack-a-mole, but when you get it dialed in, it's pretty good.

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Cymbalta does nothing for me and it was off limits for my sister. My best friends sister in law is now a pot gummie eater and I think she spent all of Thanksgiving just staring into space. My reaction to anxiety is not healthy. It's all lash out and curse and whine so basically I am a bitchy crazy person no one wants to help. My doc thinks for me it's menopause triggered. But I get the anxiety about work. OMG. That stupid check job helped me pay for so many things and not worry about money. My doc suggested I quit it though because it also added to my anger issues. So now I have to learn to live with one paycheck a month and feel like I am teetering on disaster at any moment. I am sending you super good juju because while I get one paycheck a month your anxiety is how to do you stretch a payout that you may only get once every three months and then a long stretch of nothing if my guess is right (unlike teaching where people can either do a 9 month pay out or 12 month payout of my salary).

Definitely work with a good psychologist for the meds. And maybe work on something that can be an outlet that's different from writing that helps alleviate the stress. I have gone back to walking and I am learning to knit. 

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I've never done the financial management things like Dave Ramsey because if anything, I'm kind of cheap because my parents were terrible at money management. But have you tried a program like that? Is your spending truly beyond your means with one job or is it just anxiety that something financially bad is about to happen because of how you were raised? Do you have a 401k or savings? I fully admit that I think 6 months savings for most people is a pipe dream, so also don't feel like you have to hold yourself to impossible standards set forth by people speaking from a position of privilege. 

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On 12/9/2022 at 11:23 AM, Destiny Skywalker said:

I've never done the financial management things like Dave Ramsey because if anything, I'm kind of cheap because my parents were terrible at money management. But have you tried a program like that? Is your spending truly beyond your means with one job or is it just anxiety that something financially bad is about to happen because of how you were raised? Do you have a 401k or savings? I fully admit that I think 6 months savings for most people is a pipe dream, so also don't feel like you have to hold yourself to impossible standards set forth by people speaking from a position of privilege. 

I am split on Dave Ramsey.  I think overall he gives good advice considering most of the people that seek him out are in desperate circumstances of their own creation.  But on the other hand, some of his advice is the most boomer shit ever.  For example, when I first moved to Denver I bought a condo downtown before the big real estate boom.  I remember after closing I had like $7 in my account.  Yes--there were much better and affordable places, but that purchase set off a chain of financial events that allowed me to eventually buy a house in a mountain ski town.  If I waited to do this before I had 6 months saved up, on a teacher's salary I would still be there.

In Colorado, state employees do not pay social security--we have state retirement called PERA--which is way better and my wife has a 401k through ULA. 

 

 

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Dave Ramsey assumes that your #1 and only goal in life is to make money and have money. So yeah sure, if you're in your 20s and single with no kids and just want to be rich someday, it's easy to drive junker cars, live on rice and beans alone, work 3 jobs, and never spend a dime on anything that isn't life sustaining. This just isn't reasonable for most people, so most people wind up modifying his advice to fit their own lifestyles and goals. 

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Fuck Dave Ramsey - I think it's all common sense and personality life change Dr Oz BS. You have to make your mess and learn to clean up after yourself. Some people do, some people already KNOW the stuff he talks about and did it. But some people just crave or need a person to tell them what to do with their money/life or whatever. That's why there's so many how to books. He's the Dr Oz of money. Because teachers really do get screwed. I am lucky that I can chose though how my retirement is taken so I opted for Social Security because it took me so long to get into teaching that paying into the TEA retirement fund (Which invested in the Bernie Madoff scheme back in the day) scared the crap out of me. 

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39 minutes ago, Cerina said:

Dave Ramsey assumes that your #1 and only goal in life is to make money and have money. So yeah sure, if you're in your 20s and single with no kids and just want to be rich someday, it's easy to drive junker cars, live on rice and beans alone, work 3 jobs, and never spend a dime on anything that isn't life sustaining. This just isn't reasonable for most people, so most people wind up modifying his advice to fit their own lifestyles and goals. 

Agree 100%.  I think at that time most of my expendable income went to skiing (pass, gas, etc).  I was a special education teacher and science teacher and was always volunteering at the school.  At the time I was single and no kids and I guess I could trade my weekends waiting tables at Chili's to get ahead...but what is the point in that?

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I think Dave Ramsey is good for people in debt just like religion is good for people who suffer from addiction. Agreed, though, that I'm not swimming through my hoarde of money like Scrooge McDuck, I'm going to spend it and only hustle as much as I need to.  I've never understood workaholics. There's so much to life beyond work. Especially when you're salaried and don't get overtime benefits.

I laughed so hard at Boomer financial advice. I think he tells you to put your money in envelopes so that you budget properly. I get that some people may need that visual, but it feels so tedious. And then you have my dad, the Boomer, who I swear thinks when he has cash that it's going to light his pocket on fire so he needs to get rid of it. That method would totally backfire with him.

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So sorry you're going through all this, Tank. Hollywood is dying because, frankly, few people want to spend money on the shit they've been putting out lately.   I got rid of my TV set around 2005, and haven't been to a theater in several years.  It's not going to get any better. Have you thought about some other aspect of writing that you could do? Scripts for stage plays or for independent movie makers, maybe novels or newspaper articles? Or just get some kind of steady job at an office, which might be boring but would allow you to save up money? Anxiety sucks, it can be mentally crippling, preventing you from moving forward. I've been there. Hope you can figure out something. 

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