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Roe Vs Wade...


Ms. Spam
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It was a political decision posing as a legal decision for 50 years. The Court, in 1973, started with the decision that abortion should be legalized and then tried to find a way to make that happen. Even Amanda used to talk about how she was extremely pro-choice but the decision itself was legally horrible. Don't be surprised when political decisions change. You can absolutely disagree with the decision, but the abortion argument has been filled with nonsense for decades, including the initial decision in 1973.

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I am personally pro-life but I don't think outlawing abortion universally is a good answer. Unfortunately, there are real cases where a fetus is not viable or a woman's life is actually endangered by pregnancy.  And its such a political issue that I absolutely do not trust the legal system to determine that properly. I think we are setting ourselves up for even worse maternal care in this country. I do feel like this is a control issue, not a moral issue.

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It’s only about control.

From a Christian perspective the Bible tells you how to have abortions, and that life starts at first breath.

From a scientific perspective our knowledge explains natural miscarriages happen in all sorts of ways, given fertilization, before and after implantation. That voluntary abortions consider viability, and of course those necessary actions for the safety of the pregnant person (eg. ectopic).

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16 minutes ago, Spider-Man said:

From a Christian perspective the Bible tells you how to have abortions, and that life starts at first breath.

Can you clarify and/or cite this? It's been well over a decade the last time I read a Bible, so I'd like to hear more on this.

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I can't swear to it because I'm too lazy to check but I am sure it may have been old testament stuff where the lord commanded maybe Moses or someone to murder their first born.

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I know somewhere in exodus that if a man hits a woman and kills the woman he can be put to death--but if he hits the woman and causes a miscarriage he has to pay a fine.

Here is kind of an explanation

I know that there are some indigenous native american cultures whom believe a child is not truly alive until it is named--that can sometimes be years-at which point the soul enters the body.  This is likely due to a high infant mortality rate.

It is interesting that only until recently did the evangelicals take on the pro-life stance as pro-life was a Catholic thing. 

I am 100% pro-choice, because its not my body and really none of my business.  If you are religious and truly believe that abortion is killing a baby-couldn't your god just give that baby/ soul a pass to go to heaven or just put that soul in a different body?   On the other hand, as an atheist, I believe that this life is all we get and I struggle with the idea of someone denying another person's that existence.  I can't even kill a bug (I eat meat--I am a hypocrite).  On the other hand, I believe humans are a virus and are responsible for mass suffering of animals/each other and are a plague to Earth and we should be eradicated before we build up the ability to get off this rock.  So whatever. 

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2 hours ago, Darth Krawlie said:

Can you clarify and/or cite this? It's been well over a decade the last time I read a Bible, so I'd like to hear more on this.

Genesis 2 references life starting with first breath.

Numbers 5 references instructions for a man to cause his wife to miscarry (abortion) if he suspects her of infidelity. The wife’s “defense” in this procedure is simply that if she was faithful then she won’t miscarry.

There are numerous other examples of the Biblical God not giving any care about any persons’ age or development nor culture if they oppose Its’ Will, and thus directing either nature or man to kill at will.

Life is sacred, Biblically, when it bends its’ knee to God, and the persons that get to say what God’s Will is have been men. So take that as it is.

In this Faith the choice is to believe God knows best, that God’s Grand Plan is too big for us to grasp, that our idea of right and wrong or Good and Evil is biased to our perspective and has no bearing on God, or well just picking and choosing what to believe in order to maintain a Faith that is comfortable and justifiable for the person. All of this is worthy of questioning, discussion, etc. Of course depending on when you live, where you live, what place you have in society, and what sex you are then your success at outwardly pondering these things will vary.

In my case I’m probably fairly described as a male pseudo intellectual Internet douchebag that presently lives in the United States of America during 2022, so my success pondering anything is based on other people’s likes on social media. ;-)

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Yikes, that's some Salem witchcraft defense there! "So we're going to lower you into the lake, if you drown we'll know you're not a witch."

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If I have time and patience to respond, I will, but seriously a lot of what Torch said is from memes created by angry teenagers who did a ctrl-f search of the Bible to find words. Nobody with any biblical understanding, including ardent atheists, would agree with the breath of God of Genesis 2 having anything to do with breath being the start of life. It's basically referencing humanity first receiving a soul, not literal breath. So if you use that in an abortion argument, you just show that you're trying to score points from your friends and not actually intelligent.

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There are numerous religious aids available on the internet that reference and acknowledge Genesis 2 and when life begins Biblically, and what it could all mean. Enjoy yourself, seriously. It’s fun to think about.

I will also say that you saying that I am like a teenager parroting memes, and unintelligent is offensive. But in fairness it’s not like we have interacted for more than two decades, so how could you possibly know me, what I have read, or how I have informed my opinions, especially on such a highly contentious subject of “what is life and when does it begin”.

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23 minutes ago, Fozzie said:

If I have time and patience to respond, I will, but seriously a lot of what Torch said is from memes created by angry teenagers who did a ctrl-f search of the Bible to find words. Nobody with any biblical understanding, including ardent atheists, would agree with the breath of God of Genesis 2 having anything to do with breath being the start of life. It's basically referencing humanity first receiving a soul, not literal breath. So if you use that in an abortion argument, you just show that you're trying to score points from your friends and not actually intelligent.

It's a fairly common Jewish belief that life begins with first breath, and they've arguably been studying Genesis far longer than any Christian. I actually first learned this from a devout Jewish friend of mine who still holds this belief and have heard it from several sources since. So, no, it's not just "angry teenagers" online, unless we're going to start classifying Jews as "angry teenagers" which just seems a tad bit off base. 

http://www.reclaimingjudaism.org/teachings/when-does-life-begin-jewish-view

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In further fairness, I did initially say “from a Christian perspective” before switching more generally to Biblically. Although I suppose even the term Biblically could be read as Christian based. Even still, it has been such a contentious debate in my Christian based experience, that I felt using Genesis 2 as a, well, I guess starting point… pun intended… it’d be less offensive to others.

While I firmly believe abortion is about control, when I got into matters of Faith I tried to paint with such broad strokes that it allowed for however anyone wished to view those matters while still providing my position on that.

I mean, I essentially signed off with “but I’m dumb” as an effort to playfully highlight how much wriggle room there obviously is. That room being why Americans, and others certainly, still argue about all this.

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I think the only reason it won't be 6-3 in favor of overturning is because John Roberts really wants to appear to be the calm, rational one who takes the dignity of the court seriously, so he'll vote with the liberals.

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I personally think this "leak" was really SCOTUS floating the idea of an overturn to gauge reaction, but I think the backlash it is getting is going to prevent that from happening. 

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I don’t think the opposition to abortion have any cares about what SCOTUS does at this point.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/louisiana-legislators-advance-bill-classifying-abortion-homicide-2022-05-05/

Probably just going to keep getting “worse”.  In quotes because I guess some people don’t see this as a problem.

Afterthought: Is it perfectly ironic that out of the 17 interactions in this thread 13 are by men?

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Well, the more states that pass anti-abortion laws, the more it means SCOTUS will actually have to rule on the matter.  But I don't know if right now that SCOTUS will overturn R V W. I guess we will see soon enough, but SCOTUS does go out of its way to take public opinion into account for their decisions.  Pro lifers may be very vocal, but are nonetheless a minority, and I doubt SCOTUS will rule in a way that upsets the majority. 

Quote

Afterthought: Is it perfectly ironic that out of the 17 interactions in this thread 13 are by men?

Why is that ironic?  

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I suppose because in my IRL circle I expect to hear more female voices, especially in situations like this. And I suddenly became aware that not just were male voices dominating the thread but I was, and I became uncomfortable about that because as the kids say… here’s some teenage memes, Fozzie lol ;-)… “Oops, I accidentally created a false reality.”

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I understand now.  I chalk that up to maybe long time nightly members having said all there is to say about abortion?  

Not that anyone asked, but my personal opinion on abortion is that I am generally pro life, however, I recognize there are situations where abortion is necessary and should remain legal and oppose an overturn of Roe V Wade, so I guess that technically makes me pro-choice.    

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I find it...amusing? No that's not the right word...concerning? Maybe. Telling? Probably... How many men have strong opinions which they vocalise loudly on this issue. 

All I know is a bunch of old men wrote legislation around what women can legally do with their internal organs. I'm not particularly cool with that.

 

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For me I am supposed to be Pro-Life as a person who's a Christian or that's the way it's supposed to be perceived. But my stance is more Pro-Choice because I think that fits more with the way Jesus wanted to have me behave as a Christian instead of focusing on all those laws and getting stuck on small details while other bigger stuff is ignored like hunger and homelessness and taking care of the jailed. I also find I am more pro-death-penalty more than ever but honestly that is just meanness on my part because of past things that happened to me.

I think this is why so many are leaving or never join traditional church in the US too. The old "cling to the old ways" stuff is driving away many of their potential congregants because it's moving towards nothing modern or uplifting or good for people as a whole. 80% of people in the US in 2019 didn't give a fuck about abortion and were okay with it. Then suddenly this paper gets leaked and it's back at the front causing division and driving us away from actually EVER fixing actual problems like immigration (Look at the nonsense at the border which would help if they'd get a immigration system that's not based on a Trump policy to block everyone for Covid from entering the US) or actual gun laws to stop people from shooting up others just trying to have fun. Nope now we're going to spend energy fighting this.

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7 hours ago, Odine said:

I find it...amusing? No that's not the right word...concerning? Maybe. Telling? Probably... How many men have strong opinions which they vocalise loudly on this issue. 

All I know is a bunch of old men wrote legislation around what women can legally do with their internal organs. I'm not particularly cool with that.

 

I find that argument fallible. Men are half of the equation. I remember in the 80s there being numerous fathers taking the women to court because they wanted to raise the babies themselves. Not to mention the majority of opinions come from people who never faced that decision to begin with. I never played in the NBA, but I can talk about the playoffs. 

The problem with the Roe v Wade argument is that hardly anyone sticks to the topic. Reversing Roe V Wade doesn't outlaw abortions. Never did. A lot of people beige that it does. Reversing the decision just puts the onus back on the states themselves and not the federal government. I don't see even 5 governors with the stones to outright BAN abortions. That's a recipe for a lost election. Despite what the media wants you to believe getting knocked up and not knowing if you want to keep the child isn't partisan. Maybe ideologically, but after a wild night out, a few drinks, and no condoms, political parties be damned.

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