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Book of Boba Fett


Darth Krawlie
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On 2/13/2022 at 11:59 AM, Fozzie said:

I haven’t watched 10 minutes of the cartoons and I had no trouble following Ahsoka and it doesn’t sound like you need Cad Bane’s backstory. One thing that’s been great about Star Wars at its best is that it has rich characters with backgrounds that exist. Honestly, if there was a cartoon in 1980 that showed why Lando maybe hated Han, you would still get all you need from ESB. Don’t mistake having characters from other media as a sign that you have to watch that media to understand anything.

 

19 hours ago, Dark Wader said:

This. I think there is sometimes a feeling you need to know a characters backstory when you are aware/find out they come from a comic or cartoon, but people I know who only casually watch the movies/shows never mentioned they felt lost with the introduction of the characters. 

Until now they got that balance right, but now having to watch Boba Fett to follow the main story of the Mandalorian is crossing the line. I’ve had to tell people who gave up on the third episode to keep watching if they want Mando S3 to work, which is never a good sign. 

 

5 hours ago, CoLA said:

So like Obi-Wan and Vader in ANH? :P

I think some are making too much out of this, you don't need to know much about Cad Bane other than he is a bad dude working for bad dudes. It's just like when we first saw Boba in ESB, we only knew he was a bounty hunter and he sometimes disintegrated people. I've seen all of the CW show and there really isn't much more to know about Bane other than he and Fett knew each other before.

 Same with Ahsoka, if you know her backstory, cool! If you don't, you just know she was a Jedi who knew Anakin before.

Here's the difference I think.

In the OT they absolutely jumped the audience into a full worlds and things were talked about as if they were a given. But we would hear about these things, not see them.

Han talks about Jabba, and ignoring the SE insert, we don't see the guy for two movies later.

Obi-Wan talks about Anakin and the Clone Wars, and Anakin pays off in the next movie, and the Clone Wars not until the PT.

Han tells Leia he and Lando go "way back", and the Cloud Cars fire shots at them prompting Chewie to say something that Han replies to telling us they have a rocky past, THEN we meet Lando.

In almost every case of world building in the OT, we hear little tidbits well before actually meeting the person. Cad Bane's appearance was done in reverse. He shows up with this gravitas and is shot in a way that makes it seems as though we should know who he is and be afraid. It worked for me because I had seen the cartoons, but if I had never seen him the way he appeared would have felt off. When he and Boba talk on their past while throwing down.. that would be like getting all of Vader's dialog to Luke in ESB without ever hearing that Vader killed Luke's father.

All that said, the intent behind t Bane's appearance is still designed to do something. It's designed to make you think 'Oh this guy is important, but I don't know who he is... GUESS I BETTER GO CONSUME MORE SW CONTENT SO I AM IN THE KNOW. That's clearly their intent- people who know, know, those who don't, are now compelled to go find out. It's a strategy for sure-- but it's one driven by marketing and not storytelling... which admittedly, Star Wars has never been afraid to do... and it's always where it goes wrong.

The other place Star Wars always goes wrong is that the worst special effect in any given SW entry is a person riding a beast of some sort. And that still holds true.

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16 minutes ago, Tank said:

 

 

Here's the difference I think.

In the OT they absolutely jumped the audience into a full worlds and things were talked about as if they were a given. But we would hear about these things, not see them.

Han talks about Jabba, and ignoring the SE insert, we don't see the guy for two movies later.

Obi-Wan talks about Anakin and the Clone Wars, and Anakin pays off in the next movie, and the Clone Wars not until the PT.

Han tells Leia he and Lando go "way back", and the Cloud Cars fire shots at them prompting Chewie to say something that Han replies to telling us they have a rocky past, THEN we meet Lando.

In almost every case of world building in the OT, we hear little tidbits well before actually meeting the person. Cad Bane's appearance was done in reverse. He shows up with this gravitas and is shot in a way that makes it seems as though we should know who he is and be afraid. It worked for me because I had seen the cartoons, but if I had never seen him the way he appeared would have felt off. When he and Boba talk on their past while throwing down.. that would be like getting all of Vader's dialog to Luke in ESB without ever hearing that Vader killed Luke's father.

All that said, the intent behind t Bane's appearance is still designed to do something. It's designed to make you think 'Oh this guy is important, but I don't know who he is... GUESS I BETTER GO CONSUME MORE SW CONTENT SO I AM IN THE KNOW. That's clearly their intent- people who know, know, those who don't, are now compelled to go find out. It's a strategy for sure-- but it's one driven by marketing and not storytelling... which admittedly, Star Wars has never been afraid to do... and it's always where it goes wrong.

The other place Star Wars always goes wrong is that the worst special effect in any given SW entry is a person riding a beast of some sort. And that still holds true.

But you don't need to know much about Bane beyond what you get in this series. Even Clone Wars never gives you any backstory about him, he's just a bounty hunter that shows up and tangles with the heroes.

I mean, you don't learn that much about Obi-Wan and Vader in ANH other than they knew each other before. Boba was supposed to be a badass yet never does anything badass in the movies! :P

We just hear it second hand and are expected to accept that events occurred involving them before the chapter we are watching. Watching CW isn't going to give you anything about Bane than a familiarity with the character.

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2 hours ago, Darth Krawlie said:

So why have him at all, then? He accomplishes absolutely nothing in the show, and we learn nothing about him. It's pointless.

That’s another example of the many story issues this show has. He should of been brought in earlier and established better but was just another rushed element. It’s still not really a requirement to have seen the Clone Wars - even if you have, it probably makes the scene worse because it has been rushed. 

Compare it to Kara Thrace or Ashoka on Mando where you don’t need to know their backstories but still used to develop and progress the story and character. I guess you can make the same argument there as well but I think they balanced it out much better. 

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Bo and Ahsoka felt more Engrained to the story. Mando was looking for Jedi and other Mandalorians. Their appearances were motivated by the story. It’s the walk on, kick ass, and assumption you know who they are angle that doesn’t work as well.

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4 hours ago, CoLA said:I mean, you don't learn that much about Obi-Wan and Vader in ANH other than they knew each other before. Boba was supposed to be a badass yet never does anything badass in the movies! :P

We just hear it second hand and are expected to accept that events occurred involving them before the chapter we are watching. Watching CW isn't going to give you anything about Bane than a familiarity with the character.

It’s all about the presentation and context. Bane was put over as an instavillain by taking down Cobb.

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3 minutes ago, Tank said:

Bo and Ahsoka felt more Engrained to the story. Mando was looking for Jedi and other Mandalorians. Their appearances were motivated by the story. It’s the walk on, kick ass, and assumption you know who they are angle that doesn’t work as well.

Yeah which is what I mean, for Cad you don’t need to know the backstory for it to work and if they played it better, wouldn’t feel like a shoe horned in cameo.

I think they’ve crossed the line now though by making this show mandatory viewing for Mando season 3. They hadn’t, nor Marvel have really gone this far imo. 

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12 hours ago, Tank said:

It’s all about the presentation and context. Bane was put over as an instavillain by taking down Cobb.

Well yeah but he was introduced as just a villain in CW. I mean, he is very much a what you see is what you get type of character. Watching CW wouldn't give you anything more about him. I just don't see anything being added about him by watching the animated show before BOBF. We know Bane and Boba knew each other already but we've seen this in SW before.

 Plus! Comics do the "new villain beats hero easily/beats or kills old villain" all the time as a way to establish they're a bigger threat. Movies and cartoons do it, too but probably not as much as comics do. Kind of like horror movies killing off survivors in the next installment to give the sense no one is safe.

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12 hours ago, Dark Wader said:

Yeah which is what I mean, for Cad you don’t need to know the backstory for it to work and if they played it better, wouldn’t feel like a shoe horned in cameo.

I think they’ve crossed the line now though by making this show mandatory viewing for Mando season 3. They hadn’t, nor Marvel have really gone this far imo. 

Yeah, I think it's dumb they tied some big plot points from Mando to this. I mean, I thought those were the best episodes but if you're making a Boba Fett show, make it all about him!

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1 hour ago, CoLA said:

Well yeah but he was introduced as just a villain in CW. I mean, he is very much a what you see is what you get type of character. Watching CW wouldn't give you anything more about him. I just don't see anything being added about him by watching the animated show before BOBF. We know Bane and Boba knew each other already but we've seen this in SW before.

 Plus! Comics do the "new villain beats hero easily/beats or kills old villain" all the time as a way to establish they're a bigger threat. Movies and cartoons do it, too but probably not as much as comics do. Kind of like horror movies killing off survivors in the next installment to give the sense no one is safe.

Again, it’s not the info I am talking about, it’s the presentation, specifically to Star Wars.

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19 hours ago, CoLA said:

But you don't need to know much about Bane beyond what you get in this series. Even Clone Wars never gives you any backstory about him, he's just a bounty hunter that shows up and tangles with the heroes.

I mean, you don't learn that much about Obi-Wan and Vader in ANH other than they knew each other before. Boba was supposed to be a badass yet never does anything badass in the movies! :P

We just hear it second hand and are expected to accept that events occurred involving them before the chapter we are watching. Watching CW isn't going to give you anything about Bane than a familiarity with the character.

If I hadn't watched the previous material regarding Bane, his appearance in TBOBF would've been a huge letdown. Having watched TCW, Rebels and all the other stuff that he's appeared in prior to this show, at least now I had a sense of the meaning behind this final showdown between these two characters. I could see this being a satisfactory end for Bane. Had I never seen any of the other stuff and this was my first introduction to Bane, it would've been a huge disappointment to have seen this new badass villain introduced only to get killed an episode later. Ironically, you could say Bane followed in the path of the guy whose show he was in. Isn't that what fans griped about Boba Fett for years? Badass villain has a kick ass introduction only to do nothing and get dispatched easily in the next episode.  

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1 hour ago, Lord Darth Hunter said:

 

If I hadn't watched the previous material regarding Bane, his appearance in TBOBF would've been a huge letdown. Having watched TCW, Rebels and all the other stuff that he's appeared in prior to this show, at least now I had a sense of the meaning behind this final showdown between these two characters. I could see this being a satisfactory end for Bane. Had I never seen any of the other stuff and this was my first introduction to Bane, it would've been a huge disappointment to have seen this new badass villain introduced only to get killed an episode later. Ironically, you could say Bane followed in the path of the guy whose show he was in. Isn't that what fans griped about Boba Fett for years? Badass villain has a kick ass introduction only to do nothing and get dispatched easily in the next episode.  

I would disagree because Boba really didn't have a badass intro! He just..looked cool, I guess? But then he gets his bounty hand delivered to him and later gets killed by the same bounty in an accident the next movie. :P

To me, Bane is just another generic villain. He's been seen a bunch of times and tangled with the heroes over the decades but there really isn't anything to him. In CW, he's introduced and there is some mention of his reputation but that's it. The presentation is just for the CW fans. It's like a certain character showing up in Spider-Man: NWH. If you haven't seen previous related material, the reaction will be "It's just some guy." And I mean, that's fine. The appearance is for the diehard fans, not the casuals.

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Yes, Fett fans like to point out his back talk to Vader but he never really did. The only one who actually ripped into Vader and lived to tell about it was Lando. 
 

My point was more that fans expected more out of Fett in ROTJ and were let down. (Many felt the same way about Maul’s appearance in TPM if you recall.) I would feel the same with Bane in this series had I never seen him before. 

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Its not about knowing more about Bane, here is the issue. Someone brought up Vader vs Obi Wan in ANH and being between 2 characters who hadn't previously met. Its a totally different situation though. The OT isn't about Obi Wan-Vader, its about Luke-Vader. Having Vader kill Obi Wan is about setting up Vader as a villain and creating personal stakes between Vader and Luke so that when they finally come face to face at the end of the next movie it matters. By the time they face each other in ESB Vader has sent troopers to Tatooine who killed Luke's aunt and uncle. He killed Ben in front of Luke. He tried to shoot Luke out of the sky at the Death Star. He captured and tortured Luke's 2 best friend and froze one in carbonite. Its not just Vader is bad, Luke is good so they fight. Its personal between the two. Thats why it is great.

Now Im not expecting BOBF to be "Empire" but here is the problem: there is zero personal between Fett and Bane. Their showdown is the climax of the whole damn show. All Bane did on this show is shoot Vanth and have 1 parlay scene with Fett and Mando. Fett doesn't even know Vanth. If you only watched lived action there would be zero personal stakes between Fett and Bane. This is basically a complete failure of storytelling. What story culminates with a face off between the hero and villain when the 2 characters have nothing to do with each other?

I can't possibly believe Filoni and Favreau don't realize this so I have to figure that they are relying on the past history of Bane and Fett from The Clone Wars cartoon to provide those personal stakes between the two. Which even in that cartoon is fairly light but at least it shows they worked together. 

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And what is maddening is it could have been fixed in a few scenes. Have Bane lead the slaughter of the Tuskens. Fett then finds evidence left behind that it was Bane. Flashback to Fett as a boy working with Bane where Bane treats him like crap, teaches him a bad lesson or whatever. Basically Bane contributes to making Fett the person he used ot be that he doesn't want to be any more. 

Thats all it would take. Im not expecting the most epic rivalry ever or anything. But those personal stakes need to be there.

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16 hours ago, The Choc said:

Its not about knowing more about Bane, here is the issue. Someone brought up Vader vs Obi Wan in ANH and being between 2 characters who hadn't previously met. Its a totally different situation though. The OT isn't about Obi Wan-Vader, its about Luke-Vader. Having Vader kill Obi Wan is about setting up Vader as a villain and creating personal stakes between Vader and Luke so that when they finally come face to face at the end of the next movie it matters. By the time they face each other in ESB Vader has sent troopers to Tatooine who killed Luke's aunt and uncle. He killed Ben in front of Luke. He tried to shoot Luke out of the sky at the Death Star. He captured and tortured Luke's 2 best friend and froze one in carbonite. Its not just Vader is bad, Luke is good so they fight. Its personal between the two. Thats why it is great.

Now Im not expecting BOBF to be "Empire" but here is the problem: there is zero personal between Fett and Bane. Their showdown is the climax of the whole damn show. All Bane did on this show is shoot Vanth and have 1 parlay scene with Fett and Mando. Fett doesn't even know Vanth. If you only watched lived action there would be zero personal stakes between Fett and Bane. This is basically a complete failure of storytelling. What story culminates with a face off between the hero and villain when the 2 characters have nothing to do with each other?

I can't possibly believe Filoni and Favreau don't realize this so I have to figure that they are relying on the past history of Bane and Fett from The Clone Wars cartoon to provide those personal stakes between the two. Which even in that cartoon is fairly light but at least it shows they worked together. 

There wasn't a lot of Fett/Bane even in CW. In fact, I don't think they were even shown working together! There were some episodes with Fett hanging with Aurra Sing and Bossk when he was starting out. I think all the Fett/Bane stuff is from books and comics.

I think it's because the SW shows are like the Marvel ones now. At some point, I'm sure Kate Bishop will appear in a movie and fans will be excited to see her. Obviously you would have to watch Hawkeye for her introduction, otherwise she's just another random hero showing up. Same with Sylvie and Kang from Loki.

Since all the movies, shows, books and comics going forward are now supposed to be canon, this kind of thing is going to come up. I've read plenty of comics so I'm used to random characters showing up from other titles. Now we're getting this with the movies and shows. I know I wasn't happy to hear Ventress was killed off in a book, I'd rather she appear in a series or movie instead since I'm not really into the books.

We just need to accept that all of this is integrated and if you want the whole story, you gotta keep up with it all. And if you don't, there's always Google and Wookiepedia!

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Marvel keeps their print universe very separate from the screen universe. Their hope is that you watch the stuff on screen, then go to the comic shop to see what it was based on. Star Wars is turning this awkward fan-pandering corner of making things required viewing and it's going to bite them on the ass. At this point they don't REALLY care about individual projects and continuity, right now it's just important that the IP is alive and attracting viewers, who buy merch, and go to theme parks, etc etc. And as somebody that was in favor of the Disney era, that's hard, though not surprising, for me to say.

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