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Attack of the Clones


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No, this isn;t about the movie. Its about the current state of Star Wars! Does it seem to anyone like somehow Jango Fett has become the most important character in all of Star Wars. Im 11 or 12 episodes into the Bad Batch (which overall I like) but doesn;t it seem like cloning has become just overwhelmingly key to Star Wars? The Mandalorian has major plot points about Imperials wanting Grogu for seemingly some sort of cloning experiment. Bad Batch is about everyone wanting Omega for cloning purposes. The next show we will seen is about a clone, Boba Fett. Snoke was a clone it seems of some sort. The Emperor was a clone in TROS from what I understand supplemental materials say.

I always liked that Clones were essentially simple, they were the Republics infantry. Nice and simple, not sciencey at all. But now as it goes on it just feels liek so much of Star Wars is about Clones and with inhibitor chips and defective Clones and enhanced Clones. 

I don't dislike any individual aspect of this. Actually I shouldn't say that I don't like Snoke being a clone or whatever I don't like the Emperor being back at all. I guess I mean on the tv shows I dont dislike any one aspect of it. It just seems like this idea of clones is as I said overwhelming Star Wars and the idea of these clones of Jango and their role in the Galaxy going forward and the technology around it is becoming the main theme of it all. 

I guess as time goes on that'll fade as Im sure some of the stuff coming out will have nothing to do with clones but for now. All clones all the time baby!

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He should have drawn the line with himself.     This! Yeah I wanted to see Anakin struggle more and wrestle with his conscience, but ultimately embrace evil.  Willingly.  Not the way he di

The thing that the ST writers/directors don’t understand is that the Dark Side isn’t just making evil choices - it’s actually a malevolent supernatural power that consumes you once it’s invited in. 

My go to analysis is now that I say the PT is a bunch of horribly executed great ideas, while the ST is the opposite— a bunch of terrible ideas amazingly executed.

It feels like it when you’re watching a lot of stuff focused on the prequel era like Clone Wars and Bad Batch but I don’t get that feeling with the other content. Yeah there are elements of it there but it doesn’t feel it’s the focus point as it is in the prequels.

But I am concerned it will end up that way - there are rumours of Temuera showing up in some of the other live action content (and I believe just rumours atm) and if it’s as other clone ‘variants’, then yeah.

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Yeah! Pretty odd when you consider that it all comes from a grand sum total of two (2) lines in ANH :

 

"You fought in the Clone Wars?"

and

"General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars."

 

That's it. Nothing else in the movie and nothing else in the rest of the Original Trilogy.

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Really, I always thought the wars were very similar and so they were called the clone wars. Probably because that’s what someone told me when I was young and wanted to know what clone meant. 
 

But, yeah, cloning has been at the core of Star Wars ancillary materials for a while (meaning anything other than the movies) starting with the books from Timothy Zahn. It’s like the ran out of ideas and said “Well, what if X was a clone!”  At some point we’ll learn that the reason Han didn’t have a last name in Solo is because he’s a clone and was never given one.

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Yeah, before the PT was released, I had an impression that the Clone Wars were a series of wars.  Not just one war.  I had envisioned that there were cloned jedi, fighting cloned Boba Fetts (back before I knew about Mandalorians) and a bunch of Darths (the Sith before I knew them as such).  Stupid? Maybe, but then again it was when I was a kid. LOL  When the Thrawn trilogy came out, it seemed to confirm part of what I thought.  THe PT kind of confirmed the Fett part of it.  But none of what came out was quite the way I thought it would be. Strange.

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3 hours ago, Zathras said:

Yeah, before the PT was released, I had an impression that the Clone Wars were a series of wars.  Not just one war.  I had envisioned that there were cloned jedi, fighting cloned Boba Fetts (back before I knew about Mandalorians) and a bunch of Darths (the Sith before I knew them as such).  Stupid? Maybe, but then again it was when I was a kid. LOL  When the Thrawn trilogy came out, it seemed to confirm part of what I thought.  THe PT kind of confirmed the Fett part of it.  But none of what came out was quite the way I thought it would be. Strange.

Imagine what it would be like if the PT revealed that Vader was actually a corrupted clone of Anakin.

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Or if there was a clone of Obi Wan named OB-1.  LOL

Seriously though, a corrupted clone of Anakin might have been interesting (I am sure there is an OT comic on that somewhere! LOL), but that would mean no redemption arc for Anakin. Luke would not be motivated very much to redeem a clone of his father who had always been evil. 

I always thought that the PT did not focus enough on the corruption of Anakin by Palpy.  There should have been examples of Palpy poisoning Anakin's mind across all three movies, more akin to Macbeth.  Of course if I had my way, there would not have been a TPM, and all three movies would have Anakin as an adult from the beginning.  

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The OB-1 thing was a rumor/theory as far back as I can remember. Even in grade school I remember kids saying that. That actually gives me an idea for a thread...

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I remember it as far as I can remember, too.   My Mandala Effect-like memory at one point truly believed that the old Kenner action figure had his name listed as Obi Wan (OB-1) Kenobi, but I realized that naming scheme was only used for droids...EG R2-D2 (Artoo Dee Too) . 

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34 minutes ago, Zathras said:

Also, C'baoth was supposed to originally be an evil clone of Obi Wan. I am sure that helped the rumor of a OB-1 clone persist.

That was just because Lucas actually drew a line with Zahn doing stupid shit.

He should have drawn it sooner.

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I always thought that the PT did not focus enough on the corruption of Anakin by Palpy. 

For me, this is the biggest thing lacking in the prequels.  I always wanted to see Anakin wrestle with the dark side for a while before giving in to it, like how we saw Luke struggle with it in the thrown room.  Spider Man 3 is another good example.  We saw Peter seduced by the symbiot.  But at the same time it freaked him out because he recognized it was changing him in a bad way, but the power felt good and he couldn't resist.  That's the kind of thing I wanted to see in the PT.  But it was crammed into one film, and even that movie kind of glossed over it.  One minute Anakin is joining to the dark side reluctantly out of a desire to save Padme.   The next minute he's ranting about ruling the galaxy and building an empire and destroying anyone who gets in his way.  And there wasn't much in between, outside of that comment by Yoda telling us that Anakin has been "consumed" and "twisted" by the dark side.  We should have seen that happen.  Instead it was told to us in a single line of dialogue.  

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16 minutes ago, Tank said:

That was just because Lucas actually drew a line with Zahn doing stupid shit.

He should have drawn it sooner.

He should have drawn the line with himself.  

 

15 minutes ago, Quetzalcoatl said:

For me, this is the biggest thing lacking in the prequels.  I always wanted to see Anakin wrestle with the dark side for a while before giving in to it, like how we saw Luke struggle with it in the thrown room.  Spider Man 3 is another good example.  We saw Peter seduced by the symbiot.  But at the same time it freaked him out because he realized it was changing him in a bad way, but the power felt good and he couldn't resist.  That's the kind of thing I wanted to see in the PT.  But it was crammed into one film, and even that movie kind of glossed over it.  One minute Anakin is joining to the dark side reluctantly out of a desire to save Padme.   The next minute he's ranting about ruling the galaxy and building an empire and destroying anyone who gets in his way.  And there wasn't much in between, outside of that comment by Yoda telling us that Anakin has been "consumed" and "twisted" by the dark side.  We should have seen that happen.  Instead it was told to us in a single line of dialogue.  

This! Yeah I wanted to see Anakin struggle more and wrestle with his conscience, but ultimately embrace evil.  Willingly.  Not the way he did in ROTS where he felt like he had no choice but to go dark to save Padme.   We should have seen Anakin grow more arrogant and uncontrollable by Obi Wan as the movies progressed (I know we did get that of sorts, but in a better and more profound way).  I would have liked to see Anakin lose his temper and become cruel, and actually like the power.  A true fallen hero that becomes a villain.  But not in the last 10 minutes.  As presented, Anakin was not seduced by the dark side, but just made a choice out of love, which really mitigates the tragedy of the events.   If Anakin had been slowly poisoned by Palpy, and then made a choice motivated by a lust for power as the OT implied, I think it would have been much better.  I mean he does kind of become power hungry after his fall, but it was not the cause of his fall.  

 

One nice thing I will say about the ST is that Kylo Ren was a better Anakin than Anakin.  We did see him struggle with the "pull to the light."  

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When Vader brings Luke before Palp in ROTJ, he says "It is useless to resist, son."  Before the PT, I always thought Vader was speaking from personal experience, as if he once tried to resist and failed.  That's what I thought we were going to see in the prequels.    

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I would have loved to see a Vader/Sidious fight. At least a canon one.  I know there is that fan film out there, which wasn't all that bad, actually. 

Maybe we will get one in the Obi Wan series/film/whatever, if it ever happens. I'd like to see Vader plotting against Palpy. 

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One nice thing I will say about the ST is that Kylo Ren was a better Anakin than Anakin.  We did see him struggle with the "pull to the light."  

I have a big problem with how the ST inverted the light and dark sides where Kylo was concerned.  He treats his role as a dark side user as one of obligation, as much as any Jedi to the light side.  He was dedicated to it and was ambitious, but I never got a sense of seduction there, only obligation and duty, all the while being "tempted" by the light side.  The seduction was associated with the light, which is SW blasphemy.  Everyone knows the dark side is the quick and easy and seductive path.  Being seduced by the light side is just silly.    

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I get it-=-from a certain point of view, Kylo feels like he's being seduced. It's just his perspective. I think you're taking "seduction" too literally.

The real problem is that he turned good at the end. We already had someone on the Dark Side turn good. It would have been much more interesting for him to have been tempted with the light, only to willingly reject it. But TROS was a shitfest the whole way through, so whatever. For proof of that I actually had to google what the name of the fucking movie was beyond "episode 9," because I had forgotten.

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12 hours ago, Darth Krawlie said:

I get it-=-from a certain point of view, Kylo feels like he's being seduced. It's just his perspective. I think you're taking "seduction" too literally.

Yeah, I know he isn't being seduced in the same literal sense of a Jedi being seduced by the dark side, but I don't like that the movies chose to use that narrative.  It just feels wrong.  Despite Kylo looking like a psycho for most of the ST, I never got the sense that he was ever taken by the dark side.  I was always left with the impression that his issues stemmed from elsewhere.  All the evil things he did appeared to be done reluctantly and out of some misplaced sense of duty. 

"I know what I must do but I don't know if I have the strength to do it."

That doesn't sound like someone who's been seduced by power.  That sounds like someone who's just really confused.  The movies portrayed him as walking some hard and rigid path that discourages emotion and personal attachment, the same kind of path we saw the Jedi promote in the PT.  I don't like that the movies drew those kind of parallels.  The life of Jedi apprentice is supposed to be hard, sure.  But the life of a Sith apprentice is supposed to be the quick and easy path. 

The movies just didn't show any seduction of Kylo by the dark side, just a self-imposed sentence and a constant battle with everything that made him human.  Very un-sith like.

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I think it makes perfect sense.  After seeing all 3 movies, it is clear that Kylo/Ben's natural state was to be good.  He had gone to the dark side, and did dark things, but he always had the pull to the light, trying to "tempt" him to go back to the light side.  That is essentially an inversion of what Luke's journey and what he struggled with (his anger, which leads to the dark side).  If it had been done the way of a traditional Sith, it would be a literal retelling of Anakin. 

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Back to AOTC, I think the biggest plot hole was  the jedi being so accepting of the clone army.  I mean they get word of an army ordered by a dead jedi Syfo Dias (In reality it was either Sidious or Dooku, though I think given the similar sounding names it is implied to be sidious), and someone erased the location of Kamino from the jedi records. Only a jedi could have done that, BTW.  The republic still had no clue about the clone army, and Yoda just goes to Kamino, and says "yep, we didn't order the clones, but we will take them."   I know the need was there, but that never sat well with me. 

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Is it just me or did those clones that Obi-Wan saw on his tour of the cloning facilities look nothing like Jango?  They looked more like that security guy who worked for Padme.  Typhoid?  I always thought that was weird.   

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