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Fake News


37 replies to this topic

#1
Marc DuQuesne

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I hate the the news outlets. All of them. They are all doing their best to tear us to pieces, and succeeding.

https://essenceofwon...ring-fake-news/

#2
Tank

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The irony of a polemic on fake news from a website with a UFO and a dragon for its logo is amusing to me.


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#3
Cerina

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I could live the rest of my life without ever hearing the words "fake news" again and be very happy. 

 

Most of the time you hear it people are not talking about "news" and equally as often they're not even talking about something that's "fake". Most of the time people label something "fake news" simply because it's an opinion that they disagree with. Opinions are not news, and they're usually not fake. When people aren't calling opinions "fake news", they're calling conspiracy theories "fake news". Conspiracy theories aren't news either. 


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#4
Marc DuQuesne

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The irony of a polemic on fake news from a website with a UFO and a dragon for its logo is amusing to me.

I thought so too, but did you dig deeper than the logo? It really was an interesting discussion, and probably not what you think it is.

My favorite quote from it,

"The idea that there is such a thing as facts outside of context is a very dangerous one."

Another one that made me think of a discussion about a transgendered character in a book I had here, the author of the book I was talking about (my favorite novelist), and the author of the quote, is David Weber,

"If I take a concept that you wouldn't agree with presented to you in a political argument and I make it part of a character you like, I give you John's trusted spokesperson in the form of this fictitious character, then that idea becomes more accessible to you than it was presented to you in a direct political discussion."

#5
Brando

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I think this is a topic that deserves its own thread

#6
Brando

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I could live the rest of my life without ever hearing the words "fake news" again and be very happy. 
 
Most of the time you hear it people are not talking about "news" and equally as often they're not even talking about something that's "fake". Most of the time people label something "fake news" simply because it's an opinion that they disagree with. Opinions are not news, and they're usually not fake. When people aren't calling opinions "fake news", they're calling conspiracy theories "fake news". Conspiracy theories aren't news either. 


It depends on who is presenting those things and how. Especially with conspiracy theories. If, for example, Infowars is spreading a conspiracy theory and pretending its factual, it previously would have been correct to just call it a conspiracy theory. Presently, the White House has decided Infowars is legit news, and a decent portion of Republicans defend it as conservative news being attacked by the left.

But people also like to yell fake news about factual reporting. Rasmussens latest poll shows Trump down. People who dont want to hear that are yelling that its fake news, and media outlets shouldnt be covering it. But the news story is factual- the poll shows that. Whether the poll is accurate or not isnt a matter of news, its a matter of research, and opinion polls are pretty meaningless in our current political climate.

The dangerous thing is that were conflating fake news - stuff thats completely made up, with news that is either poorly reported or just something we dont want to hear. By doing that, we provider cover for the liars.
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#7
Odine

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I woke up to a news headline this morning that political analysts are saying Trump has a 91% chance of re-election.

I HOPE that's fake news.

#8
Brando

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Anyone making a prediction in 2020 has a 2020% chance of being wrong. Were going to end up with Krawlie being president and an executive order for everyone to wear masks and butt plugs.

But, while I get the joke, this is exactly the type of thing that gets called fake news, but isnt. A real political scientist has found a method that he believes will accurately predict the presidential election. Even with that, he isnt saying 100%. The news is reporting that this guy is making this claim, and that the claim says Trump is 91% certain to win.

Even if Trump loses all 50 States, this is still real news.
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#9
Odine

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Real news and terrifying

#10
Tank

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All news is fake. I don't think there is any outlet that is unbiased anymore, regardless of politics.

I'll go one step further, I don't think truth even exists any more. It's been shown our memories are not trustworthy. Consumer level software can easily make convincing fake images. How can you trust anything you see between photoshop and deep fake? Half our society thinks science is optional.

There is no longer a baseline reality that everyone can agree upon. Fifty years ago we obviously had differing politics and beliefs, but everyone would still watch the news and agree what they saw was real-- they'd just argue the opposing moral points of a news-worthy event. Now, said event itself is just denied by those who feel it doesn't fit their chosen narrative.
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#11
Iceheart

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Can I be Krawlie's VP?

 

I believe a story when I see multiple, trusted sources report on it. I do not believe any stories about the polls regardless of how many trusted sources report on it.

 

Kind of off topic, I found an app called Feedly recently - instead of using algorithms to pull news stories, this app just lets you follow RSS feeds. It's been pretty amazing. 



#12
Cerina

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The irony of a polemic on fake news from a website with a UFO and a dragon for its logo is amusing to me.

I thought so too, but did you dig deeper than the logo? It really was an interesting discussion, and probably not what you think it is.

My favorite quote from it,

"The idea that there is such a thing as facts outside of context is a very dangerous one."

 

 That really stood out to me as well. I'd really like to hear more about that. Have you watched the videos? I'm not sure I have the time to commit to watching intentionally, but I might be willing to have them as "background noise" as I do my typical Netflix rewatches. 
 

 

I could live the rest of my life without ever hearing the words "fake news" again and be very happy. 
 
Most of the time you hear it people are not talking about "news" and equally as often they're not even talking about something that's "fake". Most of the time people label something "fake news" simply because it's an opinion that they disagree with. Opinions are not news, and they're usually not fake. When people aren't calling opinions "fake news", they're calling conspiracy theories "fake news". Conspiracy theories aren't news either.


It depends on who is presenting those things and how. Especially with conspiracy theories. If, for example, Infowars is spreading a conspiracy theory and pretending its factual, it previously would have been correct to just call it a conspiracy theory. Presently, the White House has decided Infowars is legit news, and a decent portion of Republicans defend it as conservative news being attacked by the left.

But people also like to yell fake news about factual reporting. Rasmussens latest poll shows Trump down. People who dont want to hear that are yelling that its fake news, and media outlets shouldnt be covering it. But the news story is factual- the poll shows that. Whether the poll is accurate or not isnt a matter of news, its a matter of research, and opinion polls are pretty meaningless in our current political climate.

The dangerous thing is that were conflating fake news - stuff thats completely made up, with news that is either poorly reported or just something we dont want to hear. By doing that, we provider cover for the liars.

 

That's pretty much what I was getting at. People label damn near everything "fake news" these days. Especially if they don't like it. But also, so much presented as "news" on "news media" is less actual news and more along the line of "opinions about news". I do still believe in things like facts and a universal truth, but I also know that regardless, people's interpretations and personal worldview beliefs are going to flavor those facts and truths to their own accords. It's just that fewer and fewer people seem to be able to discern the differences, no matter how blatant or subtle. 

**insert rant about the state of our educational system here**


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#13
Cerina

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All news is fake. I don't think there is any outlet that is unbiased anymore, regardless of politics.

I'll go one step further, I don't think truth even exists any more. It's been shown our memories are not trustworthy. Consumer level software can easily make convincing fake images. How can you trust anything you see between photoshop and deep fake? Half our society thinks science is optional.

There is no longer a baseline reality that everyone can agree upon. Fifty years ago we obviously had differing politics and beliefs, but everyone would still watch the news and agree what they saw was real-- they'd just argue the opposing moral points of a news-worthy event. Now, said event itself is just denied by those who feel it doesn't fit their chosen narrative.

 

I'd argue that a truth still exists regardless of our ability (or willingness really) to observe it. 

I think most of this is more of an educational failing (possibly also a moral one but I could easily tie the moral failing to the educational failing) than an actual shift in reality. Unless, of course, we want to wax philosophical about whether or not reality exists outside of our perceptions of it. 

Can I be Krawlie's VP?

 

I believe a story when I see multiple, trusted sources report on it. I do not believe any stories about the polls regardless of how many trusted sources report on it.

 

Kind of off topic, I found an app called Feedly recently - instead of using algorithms to pull news stories, this app just lets you follow RSS feeds. It's been pretty amazing. 

I'd vote for y'all in a heartbeat over any of the choices we currently have. You're both reasonably intelligent, but really the most important thing is that you're intelligent enough to admit what you don't know or understand. And, of course, I fully believe you'd listen to experts in that case. 



#14
Tank

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All news is fake. I don't think there is any outlet that is unbiased anymore, regardless of politics.

I'll go one step further, I don't think truth even exists any more. It's been shown our memories are not trustworthy. Consumer level software can easily make convincing fake images. How can you trust anything you see between photoshop and deep fake? Half our society thinks science is optional.

There is no longer a baseline reality that everyone can agree upon. Fifty years ago we obviously had differing politics and beliefs, but everyone would still watch the news and agree what they saw was real-- they'd just argue the opposing moral points of a news-worthy event. Now, said event itself is just denied by those who feel it doesn't fit their chosen narrative.

 
I'd argue that a truth still exists regardless of our ability (or willingness really) to observe it.


Sure, it exists. The Earth isn't flat. Covid is gonna kill people. The tree falling int he woods obviously makes a sound even if no one hears it. But if we've reached terminal velocity on people not-believing in things we need everyone aboard with to fix, it doesn't matter.

#15
Zathras

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All news is fake. I don't think there is any outlet that is unbiased anymore, regardless of politics.

I'll go one step further, I don't think truth even exists any more. It's been shown our memories are not trustworthy. Consumer level software can easily make convincing fake images. How can you trust anything you see between photoshop and deep fake? Half our society thinks science is optional.

There is no longer a baseline reality that everyone can agree upon. Fifty years ago we obviously had differing politics and beliefs, but everyone would still watch the news and agree what they saw was real-- they'd just argue the opposing moral points of a news-worthy event. Now, said event itself is just denied by those who feel it doesn't fit their chosen narrative.

Yeah,  all journalism now is op ed and yellow journalism.  Politics and elections have devolved into rah rah football games. What is shocking though is how many people buy into it all and back their candidate blindly.

 

It's like there is no such thing as critical thinking going on anymore in the US.



#16
Brando

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Theres actually still plenty of real journalism, you just dont see it because people are constantly sharing opinion pieces and thinking its news, and the algorithms know thats what youll actually click on.
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#17
Cerina

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**insert continued rant about our declining education system**


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#18
Marc DuQuesne

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The irony of a polemic on fake news from a website with a UFO and a dragon for its logo is amusing to me.

I thought so too, but did you dig deeper than the logo? It really was an interesting discussion, and probably not what you think it is.

My favorite quote from it,

"The idea that there is such a thing as facts outside of context is a very dangerous one."
 
 That really stood out to me as well. I'd really like to hear more about that. Have you watched the videos? I'm not sure I have the time to commit to watching intentionally, but I might be willing to have them as "background noise" as I do my typical Netflix rewatches. 

I listened to them while I was working. I have to have something like that to keep my mind busy or the boredom of my job makes me a bit twitchy. I get in about 6 hrs of podcasts on the average day between work and the commute.

Part 1 was my favorite of the three, it's more of a philosophical discussion, defining the problem, why it's a problem, and the many challenges in trying to solve it. Part 2 is an interview with a guy making a movie on the subject. Part 3 is a more technical discussion about ways to combat misinformation and disinformation.

The amount of information available and our inability to process all of it was a major part of their conversation. We have information overload and are expected to have a strong opinion on every topic, even the ones we are not familiar with. Nobody can be an expert on everything, so we find ourselves trying to judge the veracity of information on the fly when we are ill equipped on the subject. This drives people into tribal bubbles where the information is filtered for us, we get the facts that support the narrative our side is pushing without inconvenient clutter, and surround ourselves with people who won't challenge our false interpretations and assumptions. This is leading to an existential threat to the premise of democracy, that 'we the people' can be informed citizens capable of responsibly participating in the process.

A great deal of "fake news" is absolutely true facts presented in the wrong context. The ICU beds is a good example. They weren't exactly lying, but without information they didn't give you to put the occupancy rate in context it's impossible to reach the correct conclusion. Sometimes I think it's honest mistakes, far more often it's part of a shaped narrative.

#19
Brando

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All news is fake. I don't think there is any outlet that is unbiased anymore, regardless of politics.

I'll go one step further, I don't think truth even exists any more. It's been shown our memories are not trustworthy. Consumer level software can easily make convincing fake images. How can you trust anything you see between photoshop and deep fake? Half our society thinks science is optional.

There is no longer a baseline reality that everyone can agree upon. Fifty years ago we obviously had differing politics and beliefs, but everyone would still watch the news and agree what they saw was real-- they'd just argue the opposing moral points of a news-worthy event. Now, said event itself is just denied by those who feel it doesn't fit their chosen narrative.


I've had really good, meaningful conversations offline that have changed minds. It is possible. You have to start with a few things:

1) A willingness to listen, not just to what people say but their life experience that makes them say it
2) A dedication to finding common ground
3) Willingness to be proven wrong
4) A desire to share your thoughts and experiences and not to score points

I convinced a super Republican friend that he should be willing to say "black lives matter" and he makes son of Lucas seem like a bleeding heart liberal. We just have to be willing to do the work and build relationships.

Fake News and echo Chambers happen because we've given up on relationships. We used to be challenged by our friends and neighbors, now we just ignore them because we can find a group online that'll agree with us. That's one thing that makes Nightly special. Most of us that are left are fairly liberal, sure, but not all of us are, and to varying degrees.

One of the reasons this place has lasted is because I can argue like crazy in a thread about The Last Jedi and still be friends in a completely different thread in the Cantina.
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#20
Darth Ender

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**insert continued rant about our declining education system**

Isn't your rant that Trump won because of declining education levels? 



#21
Brando

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**insert continued rant about our declining education system**

Isn't your rant that Trump won because of declining education levels? 

 

Her rant is that everything happened because of our declining education system.



#22
Darth Ender

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**insert continued rant about our declining education system**

Isn't your rant that Trump won because of declining education levels? 

 

Her rant is that everything happened because of our declining education system.

 

I would argue that it the shortsightedness and greed of those in power that continually lower and cut the spending on social and education programs and then when it is stripped to the bones say, "see, it isn't working". 

 

During the 50s-70s the US saw an unprecedented spending in these areas (in white neighborhoods) because we were so scared of the Russians.  Tax rates of the top 1% was near near 70-80% at this time.  Economic mobility was exceptional (if you were white).  And now all of those people are retiring and many are saying, "**** you I got mine".  I think that is the problem.   


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#23
Marc DuQuesne

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Throwing money at the problem doesn't seem to solve it. We spend the 2nd most per student of all countries for the piss poor results of our education system. We spend far more on healthcare than anyone else and have the most underperforming system in the developed world. We need higher expectations and accountability, whether we're talking about cable news or education. I don't have any interest in rewarding our worst performing industries with taller piles of public money.

#24
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During the 50s-70s the US saw an unprecedented spending in these areas (in white neighborhoods) because we were so scared of the Russians.  Tax rates of the top 1% was near near 70-80% at this time.  Economic mobility was exceptional (if you were white).  And now all of those people are retiring and many are saying, "**** you I got mine".  I think that is the problem.   


Yep. But honestly, not even the retirees. I get so mad every time I see a new school bond go up and all of the arguing about why they don't care so they shouldn't have to pay for it. Our district has some of the lowest property taxes in the area because we can't pass a bond to save our lives because of cheap ***holes. I am saving for private high school because we need another high school so badly but can't get one built because of nonsense like this. We also need at least 2 more elementary schools.
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#25
Darth Ender

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Throwing money at the problem doesn't seem to solve it. We spend the 2nd most per student of all countries for the piss poor results of our education system. We spend far more on healthcare than anyone else and have the most underperforming system in the developed world. We need higher expectations and accountability, whether we're talking about cable news or education. I don't have any interest in rewarding our worst performing industries with taller piles of public money.

Yes, throwing money at a program doesn't work.  You have to be purposeful.

 

I am not an expert on healthcare, so I can't speak to that, but I am pretty knowledgeable on education funding...

 

Education funding is tricky to calculate and even state-to-state let alone nation-to-nation.  For example, in some states, building and renovating schools is not calculated in the per pupil funding (PPF).  America has a higher cost of living, higher land values, and more stringent building codes (handicap access, elevators, fire code, etc) than most countries.  So before we even talk about even educating our students, we are already in the top few countries for education spending because of costs that actually have nothing to do with education. 

 

Calculated in that average is also post-secondary education.  The United States has 5000 and is 2nd to India (8000) of most colleges and third place is like 1500 colleges.  Older students skew that cost up significantly.  The older the student, the more it costs to educate...speaking of which, the US educates students for much longer. 

 

As far as results:

 

Despite what everyone thinks, the results are not "piss poor".  You mention accountability, yet the United States is the ONLY country that tests ALL of its students regardless of their background including homeless, do not speak English (or dominant primary language), cognitive impairments, etc.  America is a very large, heterogeneous population.  If a student is in a wheel chair and requires a feeding tube or if the student has significant cognitive impairments and requires 1:1 support, is in jail, lives two hours from the nearest school...the school pays for all of that and has to test all of those students.  No other country does that. So our test scores go up against many countries that only test a percentage of their population.  Countries that are also paying similar costs per student also have benefits through the state.  The district pays for those things, which is also calculated into the cost. 

 

I have a school of 1200 students, most of which are low income and do not have access to affordable healthcare.  For many students, this is the only mental health they receive.  With counties slashing so many community supports, all of those things are falling to the schools.  I have to budget extra to support those needs.  Most of the countries I mentioned have strong safety nets for the poor that schools do not have to try and cover.  

 

So you may not want to throw money at it, but how about throwing money to the laws that are thrown at schools that I have to comply with but receive little, if any, funding to do so.  Off the top of my head:

 

All state/federal testing is now computer based...no funding received to buy additional tech or infrastructure.

 

Students in 3rd grade or lower reading at the 25%tile or below require additional interventions (CO READ Act)...okay that is great...but the money provided does not even touch the costs for the approved lists of interventions (and we c8an ONLY do those interventions...most of which are from corporations)

 

Lower class sizes mean I need more teachers, but money is not provided to pay for those positions so I have to cut somewhere else....congratulations now you have 60 kids in an art class and no supplies. 

 

Title 1 funding is cut every year and we are still expected to deliver the same services.  This year they even cut, without warning, the percentage of free/reduced lunch students the school has to have to receive funding (75% to 70%).  This is all or nothing, schools are either at that mark or not.  They don't recieve just 5% less or whatever.  A lot of schools lost A LOT of funding the same students. 

 

Para pay is so low I had TWO para positions last year I couldn't fill all year...and that's not that bad...

 

Two years ago I wanted to fire a math teacher but I decided not to bc of the lack of candidates to take her place.

 

Last year it took my till October to fill one teacher role.  I am lucky, many schools have more than that. 

 

Here is the kicker, in CO it is actually in the CO state constitution that teacher pay will adjust yearly to at least inflation and this is written into work contracts but the state ignores this law and districts still honor the pay scale. 

 

Don't forget every year this is some new state mandate on instructional minutes, mandatory training on this or that, increased school safety, health regulations, etc that I have to comply with and do not receive any training on. 

 

So don't say, "I am not throwing money at blah blah blah"  when the lack of funding is the central culprit.  I have to account for every dollar I spend.  Is there wasteful spending in education...sure.  Honestly, principal discretionary budget is very low.  But don't cut funding to shreds and then say, "I am not giving you more money till you fix this...oh and here are 10 new things you legally must do because I think this will help that I am giving you pennies on the dollar for funding".


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