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Indians and Redskins changing names


60 replies to this topic

#1
Brando

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This could probably go in the Lyceum, but Im more interested in what fans think. As a Cleveland fan, Im open to a name change. I just wish they would stop marketing the Chief Wahoo stuff. They dropped it from uniforms and from selling it on the website, but you can still buy it elsewhere. On the other hand, I kinda want to buy something now because it will be going away forever soon, Im sure. At least for official merchandise.

As for the Redskins, I dont give a damn about the NFL, and the owner seems like an asshat on race, but hes going to be forced to change it sooner or later, and Ill be surprised if this isnt the time. On the plus side, you get to sell all new merchandise to the fans!

#2
Metropolis

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The Chef Wahoo thing I get. I don't see how the weed Indians is offensive.

The Redskins.........I don't like them so it wouldn't bother me. I wonder if they were as successful as New England would people be so gung ho about this. Change the name and change those ugly uniforms.

#3
The Choc

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There are obviously levels to it. The name Redskins is worse than Indians. Chief Wahoo himself is worse than just the name Indians.  But still I can see how Native Americans wouldn't like any use of their iconography on sports teams. Its like we came here and conquered their continent and then took their stuff to make it mascots for sports teams. Its the modern version of the Romans conquering a new territory and then parading the barbarians through the streets in cages dressed in their strange barbaric attire. 



#4
Tank

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I don't get why anyone cares if they change the names. "Legacy?" is that it? Tell me how it would effect anyone on a personal level if a sports team changed their name.


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#5
Darth Krawlie

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Sports fandom is very tribal. Fans identify themselves with the team, saying we when the team they root for does something. Its not rational, but thats what it is.

#6
Metropolis

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Obviously it's not my team, but when this came up years ago a lot of colleges got rid of Indian based nicknames. Syracuse went from Orangemen to The Orange. People get over it. Redskin fans probably just want to win consistently again.

#7
The Choc

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This isn't new. Stanford changed their nickname from "Indians" in 1972. 



#8
Brando

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I dont think many fans care these days, definitely not compared to the past. A lot of that was based on typical culture issue divide - a certain percentage of the country decrying the names as harmful, a certain percentage getting up in arms because names arent harmful and its all PC bull****, and the majority not giving a damn.

#9
Zathras

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White people are the last people who should decide if they can keep the names Redskins or Indians.


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#10
Brando

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As long as white people own the teams, that isnt going to change.

#11
Zathras

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Sad but true. And it is racist.

 

What is worse is people (sports fans) want to excuse it because as bad as some groups have had it, what this nation did to Native people is worse than what Nazi Germany did, and it makes them uncomfortable.  If the teams were named the Africans, it would resonate how racist it is.  But because Native people are so low in numbers, it's easy for people in this country to perpetuate stereotypes and racist attitudes towards Native people.  

 

I know you want to stay on topic from more of a sports fan perspective, but it is hard to separate politics from racist attitudes perpetuated by sports fans.  Even if the racism is covert and some sports fans may even be ignorant of the fact their attitude is in fact racist.



#12
Metropolis

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So the settlers encroached on sovereign lands? Sure history doesn't make the settlers virtuous, but the Indians weren't angels either.

#13
Zathras

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Met, you are a smart guy, and that is a shocking statement, assuming you aren't just trolling. Pick up a book Met, and educate yourself.  

 

Here's one to start. https://www.amazon.c...ters,217&sr=1-1

 

On another note, why is the completely obvious so lost on some people?  The only answer I can come up with is some sports fans are just simply racist, whether they realize it or not.

 

Redskins?  My take is that is a racial slur.  If one can defend that name in 2020, think of this: why not have a team named black skins, brown skins, or yellow skins with a caricature of those ethnicities as  mascots?  People would riot.  So, since that's the case, why is it OK to denigrate Native Americans?  Answer: it's NOT OK.

 

Why can't people see this? It irritates me no end.  I'm not the biggest sports fan, but I like to watch the occasional football and baseball game and I have a hometown I like to root for, too.

 

Thoughts, anyone?

 

My input, FWIW: the Cleveland Indian logo is racist as hell and needs to go. The name itself needs to go.  The name Redskins is a racial slur. The Redskin logo is a case study in cultural appropriation. Calling a Native American an Indian is not only geographically incorrect, but also is an insult Natives have had to endure for over 500 years. It's time to change that.  People actually fighting this change to me, are racist, whether they know it or not.

 

Not directed to any of you here, but for those sports fans who can't see the hypocrisy, I can't do anything for them.  I just don't get the mentality of some sports fans. Sports fans need to get the f*** over themselves and their sports fandom and "tradition."  Having sports teams in and of itself, is a luxury.  It's not the end of the world to change the name or logo of a sports team.  Hell, it literally has been done when teams move.   Houston Oilers are now the Tennessee Titans.  If we can change the name or logo for a syrup company or a brand of rice due to the racial overtones, we can do it for a sports team.

 

Sorry for the rant, but this topic is pretty close to me personally, and angers me.



#14
The Choc

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These names are all going to be changed, with a few possible exceptions like the Seminoles at FSU. An owner may as well do it now and be seen as proactive rather than seen as being dragged kicking and screaming. 


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#15
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Even if the actions of Native Americans and Europeans was somehow equal (one side is guilty of genocide, so its hard to argue equivalency) nobody has a team called the Dagos or the Spics.
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#16
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Even if the actions of Native Americans and Europeans was somehow equal (one side is guilty of genocide, so its hard to argue equivalency) nobody has a team called the Dagos or the Spics.

I've actually seen this defense from an idiot person on my FB feed (gotta stop letting people from HS in). He was basically saying the names were an HONOR not a slight. His exact words: "If we were racist we wouldn't want to be associated with indians would we?"


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#17
Metropolis

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Met, you are a smart guy, and that is a shocking statement, assuming you aren't just trolling. Pick up a book Met, and educate yourself.  
 
Here's one to start. https://www.amazon.c...ters,217&sr=1-1
 
On another note, why is the completely obvious so lost on some people?  The only answer I can come up with is some sports fans are just simply racist, whether they realize it or not.
 
Redskins?  My take is that is a racial slur.  If one can defend that name in 2020, think of this: why not have a team named black skins, brown skins, or yellow skins with a caricature of those ethnicities as  mascots?  People would riot.  So, since that's the case, why is it OK to denigrate Native Americans?  Answer: it's NOT OK.
 
Why can't people see this? It irritates me no end.  I'm not the biggest sports fan, but I like to watch the occasional football and baseball game and I have a hometown I like to root for, too.
 
Thoughts, anyone?
 
My input, FWIW: the Cleveland Indian logo is racist as hell and needs to go. The name itself needs to go.  The name Redskins is a racial slur. The Redskin logo is a case study in cultural appropriation. Calling a Native American an Indian is not only geographically incorrect, but also is an insult Natives have had to endure for over 500 years. It's time to change that.  People actually fighting this change to me, are racist, whether they know it or not.
 
Not directed to any of you here, but for those sports fans who can't see the hypocrisy, I can't do anything for them.  I just don't get the mentality of some sports fans. Sports fans need to get the f*** over themselves and their sports fandom and "tradition."  Having sports teams in and of itself, is a luxury.  It's not the end of the world to change the name or logo of a sports team.  Hell, it literally has been done when teams move.   Houston Oilers are now the Tennessee Titans.  If we can change the name or logo for a syrup company or a brand of rice due to the racial overtones, we can do it for a sports team.
 
Sorry for the rant, but this topic is pretty close to me personally, and angers me.

I am educated on the matter. I'm even aware of the true nature of the first Thanksgiving. My point was that comparing what the settlers did to the Nazis is a reach.

Snyder should have changed it years ago when it came up again. I get that the brand itself is moneyFor him, but people will get over it. Look at the history of the league. Other than the last set of expansion teams from the Saints-Bucs to the Panthers-Jaguars, I think the Dolphins are the only team that hasn't moved or changed its name.

#18
Zathras

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Apparently you are not educated enough on the topic. 

 

What the US did in the 19th century was wholesale genocide by bullet, starvation, or pestilence which was visited upon not just the Native American warriors, but also women and children. This horror was committed by both the military, and the settlers they protected, which acted as iron fist and glove. You are ignoring the intentional infection of Native Americans.  You are ignoring the slaughter of the buffalo which led to the starvation of the thousands native people of North America. You ignore the forced removal of native people and placing them into what amounts to prison on small patches of land that was what the rest of the nation didn't see fit to develop.   You are ignoring the fact that this mistreatment isn't limited to the 19th century, but continued on to the 20th, and to present day.  You ignore the forcing of Native people to be placed into boarding school to "civilize" and "Christianize" them.  The US government continues to pollute what little land they still have, uses eminent domain to remove natural resources from their lands to this day, and the federal government still fails to provide basic necessities to these reservations.   You ignore the hardships on reservations going on presently, where alcoholism,  drug addiction, and sickness are rampant.  Have you even been to a reservation to see first hand the conditions that some Native people live that are poor by even 3rd world standards? One need only look to the Navajo Nation to understand that.  In fact, had it not been for the fact that Native Americans were more susceptible to small pox and other European diseases that wiped out over 90% of their population in both North and South America, it would have been they who were the slaves, and there would have not been African slaves in the Americas as widely spread. 

 

So, you see, you have more to learn than you think.


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#19
The Choc

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Even if the actions of Native Americans and Europeans was somehow equal (one side is guilty of genocide, so its hard to argue equivalency) nobody has a team called the Dagos or the Spics.

I've actually seen this defense from an idiot person on my FB feed (gotta stop letting people from HS in). He was basically saying the names were an HONOR not a slight. His exact words: "If we were racist we wouldn't want to be associated with indians would we?"

 

To be fair I do think certain of these nicknames are seen as being an honor by some Native Americans. I've always seen that Seminole's actually support Florida State's use of the nickname and I believe that in recent years FSU has taken the step of having the mascot always be someone of Seminole descent, which makes complete sense. 

 

The Blackhawks are also I think normally seen as a name honoring a specific person. The team is actually named after a WWI batallion which itself was named after a Chief from the early 19th Century which was named in honor of a specfic chief who actually fought against the US. 

 

As in most things blanket statements don't work. Redskins should 100% be changed, Chief Wahoo has no place on a teams merchandise. 



#20
Darth Krawlie

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Yeah, the Seminoles and Utes and Blackhawks seem okay. I think the Chiefs and Braves are probably fine too.

#21
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And you're ignoring that there were settlers here before the pilgrims landed on Plymouth Rock. You're ignoring Spanish movement from central to South America that wiped out many native civilizations. You're ignoring that there was disease spread through the land by Europeans before the pilgrims. You're ignoring that most Indian tribes attacked other usually smaller tribes to get their lands. Look I'm not debating what you're saying. Colonization had been a thing since the dawn of time. I'm saying that colonists taking lands from many independent tribes is not the same as Germany throwing up the middle finger to the league of nations and invading Poland.

#22
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Yeah, the Seminoles and Utes and Blackhawks seem okay. I think the Chiefs and Braves are probably fine too.

As a Miami Hurricanes fan I wouldn't care one way or the other about Florida State, but the Seminole tribe has supported and worked with the university for ages.

#23
Brando

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Yeah, the issue is more using a racial slur, or at least using an incorrect term.

The Indians should keep their name but have Gandhi as their mascot. Problem solved.
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#24
Zathras

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And you're ignoring that there were settlers here before the pilgrims landed on Plymouth Rock. You're ignoring Spanish movement from central to South America that wiped out many native civilizations. You're ignoring that there was disease spread through the land by Europeans before the pilgrims. You're ignoring that most Indian tribes attacked other usually smaller tribes to get their lands. Look I'm not debating what you're saying. Colonization had been a thing since the dawn of time. I'm saying that colonists taking lands from many independent tribes is not the same as Germany throwing up the middle finger to the league of nations and invading Poland.

I'm not ignoring any of that, actually.  But the US as a nation, and even as a colony, practiced genocide long before there was a Germany as a nation state.  In fact, some sources cite that Hitler modeled concentration camps based on Native American reservations and how the US treated Native people.



#25
Zathras

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Yeah, the Seminoles and Utes and Blackhawks seem okay. I think the Chiefs and Braves are probably fine too.

Well, I'm not native myself, but I think Chiefs and Braves are generic enough to not be offending, but it I think that would be up to Native Americans to decide. 

 

As for Seminoles, Utes, or Blackhawks, as long as those tribes agree with it, no problem there.  But I think they are also entitled to some kind of monetary compensation to use the names, too.  





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