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Civil War 2 : Electric Boogaloo


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I'm 100% okay with not being a superpower anymore.

I'm not. A Russia/China led world will be worse than the USA in that role.

Nah, it'll be different for sure but not worse by any means. There will be things that would be better and things that would be worse. Ecologically the US isn't better than China, in fact China is very swiftly adapting to green energy cause they're sick of choking themselves to death.

Russia is an interesting one, their mindset is just totally different to the American people. And the British too to be fair, but I don't think a Russia/China dominated world would be that much worse than the world we have currently, and have had for the past 20 or more years.

 

Oof. I'm a biologist, those countries are WAAAAY worse ecologically. The COVID-19 epidemic is a direct result of the backward meat markets. Elephants, rhinos, pangolins are on the verge of extinction because of the weak wildlife laws there. Little box turtles in the USA are smuggled to China as pets. The list goes on and on.

 

The USA, Canada, and Costa Rica are by far the best in the world at conserving wildlife.

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I am not proud to be an American. Every major civilization has had its atrocities, but the fact that we ignore, downplay, and outright pretend as of they never happened let alone refuse to acknowledg

Weve come a lot in 10 years. Were constantly changing, and theres no consistent viewpoint on what America needs to do to improve. In fact, there are as many different viewpoints as there are people. A

Really, when you think about it, before the US was the most myopic, navel gazing society ever in human history that we are now, the US was largely a nation that was concerned more with internal affair

 

I'm 100% okay with not being a superpower anymore.

I'm not. A Russia/China led world will be worse than the USA in that role.

 

I am all for the US being a counter balance to those 2 nations, but more as a collaboration with other nations. Basically what NATO was supposed to be.

 

But not at the cost of running up $trillions of debt, while US citizens go without basic necessities. Given our economic level, it is an absolute disgrace we lag the rest of the developed world in education and health care, and we still have to deal with racial and ethnic injustice and discrimination, institutionalized or on the individual level.

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A China/Russia dominated world is the victory of amoral authoritarianism over pluralism. Without the U.S. to stand on the other side you won't like the results.

Got mates who live in China, absolutely love it. My wife has been to China numerous times for work, says it's very different but there are plenty of things to love about it.

 

I've never been to Russia but plenty of my friends have been and some of my friends are from St Petersberg and Moscow respectively. Again, Russia is just different. To be fair, your point of view is completely coloured by the fact you are American. You guys are bought up on the idea that it's the greatest country on earth, which is simply not true. But that colours every way the vast majority of Americans view the outside world. Yourself included.

Edited by Odine
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Posted (edited)

 

 

 

 

I'm 100% okay with not being a superpower anymore.

I'm not. A Russia/China led world will be worse than the USA in that role.
Nah, it'll be different for sure but not worse by any means. There will be things that would be better and things that would be worse. Ecologically the US isn't better than China, in fact China is very swiftly adapting to green energy cause they're sick of choking themselves to death.

Russia is an interesting one, their mindset is just totally different to the American people. And the British too to be fair, but I don't think a Russia/China dominated world would be that much worse than the world we have currently, and have had for the past 20 or more years.

Oof. I'm a biologist, those countries are WAAAAY worse ecologically. The COVID-19 epidemic is a direct result of the backward meat markets. Elephants, rhinos, pangolins are on the verge of extinction because of the weak wildlife laws there. Little box turtles in the USA are smuggled to China as pets. The list goes on and on.

 

The USA, Canada, and Costa Rica are by far the best in the world at conserving wildlife.

I was more referring to the switch to green energy sources. China is rapidly modernizing their energy to green because they are literally sick of poisoning themselves. The republicans unter Trump are doing everything they can to send that backwards.

 

I'll agree Chinese treatment of animals and wildlife needs to change. So in that regard I agree with you. But the wet (live animal) markets exist because most Chinese people don't own refrigeration. Seriously most people don't have a fridge. Street food is much more widespread and a way of life for most people. Cooking at home is a luxury. So how are these people to access meat? The animal needs to be kept alive as long as possible and be butchered and consumed on the same day. It's just how things are. To say "wet markets are bad and should be done away with" is massively impractical and lacking in understanding how Chinese culture (food) functions. Sure there needs to be better management of wet markets to improve hygiene but to abandon them completely will cause the starvation of hundreds of thousands of people.

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A China/Russia dominated world is the victory of amoral authoritarianism over pluralism. Without the U.S. to stand on the other side you won't like the results.

Also don't be under the illusion your own government (at the federal/national level) is anything but amoral. Your entire democratic system is dictated by corporations and the various industrial complexes that wield far more power than any person or political party. Corporations by default are amoral. And that's who really runs your country. Trump and every other president is just another temporary employee of the state.

 

I'm not trying to say the UK is any better, but claiming Russia and China are amoral where the US isn't is just not true. You're just sold the illusion you're living under a benevolent system that cares. It's easier to get the public on your side if they believe their country is a force for good. Every form of your cultural output is at pains to try and reinforce this belief. But this thread itself is evidence that more and more people aren't buying that idea.

 

TLDR: remove the plank out of your own eye before you point out the speck in another's

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But this thread itself is evidence that more and more people aren't buying that idea.

This threads existence, and the fact we haven't dissapeared, been fined, or fallen out a window is evidence we aren't in China or Russia. Covid19 is a fine example, how many doctors and journalists in China have been arrested for divulging state secrets or promoting civil unrest (telling the truth)?

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What, like their aren't dissenters and political "trouble makers" who don't have mysterious disappearances in the US? Please.

 

You incarcerate more of your civilian population than any other country on earth

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/prisons/html/nn2page1.stm

 

And you have the fourth highest state sanctioned execution rate in the world. Admittedly behind China, Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia respectively, but you're not far behaviour behind Iraq. But officially Russia executes less of their own population than the US does and that's the ones the we know about.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/29/death-penalty-countries-world

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Also, don't take me as advocating for the Russian or Chinese governmental systems. I'm just saying a world with them as the dominant superpowers isn't necessarily going to be worse or better than it is now. Just a heck of a lot different.

 

But anyway, a decline in super-power status does not diminish a countries value to the global community. Voices big and small make a difference to the global consciousness particularly given how interconnected everyone lives these days. (Perhaps that is a thing of the past in the literal sense).

 

Just because Russia and China may be the next dominant political powers doesn't exclude the importance of the counter weight the US will provide even as a diminished power.

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Just realized it was 4th of July when I posted those. Sorry, didn't mean to cause any offense just trying to have a legit discussion.

 

Hope you all have a good day doing what you do x

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lol we dont care bro

I am not proud to be an American. Every major civilization has had its atrocities, but the fact that we ignore, downplay, and outright pretend as of they never happened let alone refuse to acknowledge how they impact current society is sickening.

 

I know this isn't exclusive to America, and other countries are far worse, but fuck...do we have to fuck over Native Americans every chance we get.

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There is a good portion of the population that acknowledge the wrongs of the past. This country was built on an idea. It hasn't been executed perfectly, but we are still working to achieve it. So I'm proud to be an American. We've come a long way from where we were 400 years ago. Hell we've come a long from from 60-70 years ago.

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Weve come a lot in 10 years. Were constantly changing, and theres no consistent viewpoint on what America needs to do to improve. In fact, there are as many different viewpoints as there are people. And thats our biggest strength. Our biggest weakness is that all of those viewpoints come down to two big tents where everything gets watered down.

 

Our incarceration rate is embarrassing, and I want to completely abolish the death penalty, so youll get no argument there, but the comparison between the US and two countries ruled by dictators is laughable. I get that you want to show off that youre more worldly than the rubes from the States, but look at the difference between the Black Lives Matter protests and the Hong Kong protests. We arent perfect, but theres still no comparison.

 

The world doesnt need the US to be a superpower, but were also far from losing that status. We could cut our military significantly and still be the best funded, and even more importantly we export American culture and thats not going anywhere.

 

Eventually well go the way of England (much more likely than going the way of Rome, but comparing America with Rome gives people boners so its not going away) and fade while still remaining important.

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I don't mean to show off and be worldly, so if that is how it comes across I apologise I don't wish to patronising in any way, I just think the assumtion that the world will automatically be worse off without the US at the helm becuz Russia and China, like Marc Duquesne was trying to imply, is simply not true.

 

I just happen to be one of the only voices at nightly.net who has a perspective from the outside. Not trying to show off or be worldly at all, but I can be somewhat more objective simply because of where I live. And it has always been so growing up in a small country no one cares about, you spend most your life looking outward and observing rather than looking inward if that makes sense. But I'm no political analyst or politics major. Hell I don't even hold a degree so feel free to disregard anything I say on the matter. Like I say I just call it how I see it, from my perspective such that it is.

 

Annny waaaay, the footage between what's happening in Hong Kong compared to the protests in the US is not THAT different. Admittedly I have been exposed to a lot more of the US footage than the violence in Hong Kong. Police are still shooting people with rubber bullets, tear gassing people and killing civilians in both places so...

 

I agree the US will more likely go the way of the UK than Rome. You could cut your defense budget in half and you'd still have a force to be reckoned with. Your way of life would not really change that much and the world would not be much worse of than it is now, without the US at front and center stage.

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I just happen to be one of the only voices at nightly.net who has a perspective from the outside. Not trying to show off or be worldly at all, but I can be somewhat more objective simply because of where I live. And it has always been so growing up in a small country no one cares about, you spend most your life looking outward and observing rather than looking inward if that makes sense. But I'm no political analyst or politics major. Hell I don't even hold a degree so feel free to disregard anything I say on the matter. Like I say I just call it how I see it, from my perspective such that it is.

For what it's worth, speaking as another outsider I think Brando is 100% right - America has a lot of flaws but comparing them to China is not fair. Not even in the same ballpark. I mean, forget about Hong Kong, just look at their current treatment of the Uighurs.

 

You're right that the world may not be worse off if the US is no longer the dominate superpower. But it's going to be a hell of a lot worse if China steps in to fill that void. They're already openly bullying and threatening countries like Australia, New Zealand and Canada.

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But China isn't traditionally expansionist in the same way that the UK and the US have been. I don't think dictating terms to the rest of the world, and exerting their political will/ideology over the world is in the Chinese game plan. They kind of have always just stuck to themselves and focussed on internal stuff. But again, I'm no expert.

 

I'm unaware of any political bullying by China to Australasia (I grew up in New Zealand) but I haven't lived there for 15 years. Chinese business would love to buy up property in NZ in the same way Chinese and Russian business entities have purchased land and buildings in London, but to own any land in New Zealand now you have to be a citizen. I'm of the understanding Jacinda made that law now. What is the political bullying China is doing that you speak of, specifically? Is it the trade relationship deals that those countries had that they are now regretting?

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China are definitely in the expansion game - just look at the South-east Asian region. They are pushing hard there right now which is why a lot of countries are worried.

 

To be fair, I can't speak as much to NZ as I can AU, but the NZ government backed Taiwan and gave support for them to a part of the WHO, which drew commendation from the Chinese government. "China urges New Zealand to strictly abide by the 'one China' principle and immediately stop making wrong statements on Taiwan, to avoid damaging our bilateral relationship."

 

Might not sound like much, but considering the same time this happened was the same time China placed tariffs on Australia, immediately following through on a threat of economic boycotts because Australia pushed for an independent enquiry into the origins of corona virus.

 

They're even threatening the UK right now over they're offer to grant residency to people wanting to escape Hong Kong:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/02/china-could-prevent-hongkongers-moving-to-uk-says-dominic-raab

 

These aren't empty threats, this isn't North Korea jumping up and down for attention. China is making the most of the world's situation right now.

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I'm certain Russia are also making the most of the world's situation now, just as the US is. I'd be interested to know if Russia would provide a counter to Chinese political interests then, or if their interests align.

 

Perhaps this is the new constant as US dominance receeds.. a weird kind of ongoing triangle of power juggling between Russia, China and the US that kind of balances itself out in a way. Or maybe that is too optimistic?

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There is a good portion of the population that acknowledge the wrongs of the past. This country was built on an idea. It hasn't been executed perfectly, but we are still working to achieve it. So I'm proud to be an American. We've come a long way from where we were 400 years ago. Hell we've come a long from from 60-70 years ago.

You think?

 

In some areas absolutely. I would definitely say we have grown and are better than most countries when it comes to acceptance of others differences (race, disability, sexual preference)...as long as those differences don't disrupt the status quo, make us reflect on how those previous systems of oppression have allowed a few in our population to live to such excess and continue to exist by de facto today, or wear a goddamn mask.

 

I think overall we are selfish, short-sighted, and and anti-science...look no further then Coronavirus, global warming, and how we live in such excess.

 

Everything is profit motivated. The top 1% used to be taxed at 80% in the 60s and 70s and we had exceptional funding (if you were white) for social programs and education. Many countries copied that same structure and now lead the world in economic mobility and growth. Some of our leaders try to bring it back and are called anti-American or communism. Companies have to make a profit so we don't dare raise the minimum wage (it had its most spending power in the early 80s) and now the working poor is the fastest growing group of people on welfare (behind the elderly and single moms) but **** you you lazy bums..we are cutting that too!

 

The US government used to invest in science and pure research...things that did made us proud. NASA budget has been slashed and the Texas super collider was cancelled because politicians didn't think it was sexy enough (meanwhile CERN is killing it). As a whole, our citizens don't see the benefit in such investments...all the while using their smart phones on the couch to crank up their AC to the max, ordering a dozen deliveries on Amazon, all while looking up memes on global warming being a Chinese hoax.

 

We decided if we cut taxes for the wealthy, everyone will be rich. We bought that hook, line, and sinker even though decades of research show that "trickle down economics" is a sham. We have fallen from one of the top countries in the world for economic mobility to among the lowest in the developed world (between 25-30th) with even some "**** hole countries" passing us. But hey, who gives a ****, we are very wealthy thanks to having more billionaires than any other country...about 420 more than 2nd place.

 

Congress votes more along party lines than ever before. We call ourselves freedom of speech, but our major press outlets are also profit driven and cater to audiences only making the problem worse. Those that do cross party lines are deemed as weak by said media.

 

We constantly **** over and meddle with countries...Iran was a pro-west, progressive, country until we felt they were charging us too much for oil and we install a dictator...repeat a dozen times with various countries then when they lack stability, we call them ****-hole countries. But that's okay, because we used tax money to **** those countries over to make our rich richer. Socialize the cost and privatize the profit. We will send our poor to die and then **** them out of benefits. But that's cool, because we always stand and respect them when we sing the national anthem.

 

We love locking people up...especially if you aren't white. Despite white people and black people's use of illicit drugs is the same for both recreational and hardcore use, black Americans are 6x more likely to be arrested for drugs and when they are arrested, receive much harsher sentences than their white counterparts for all crimes. The longest sentence from Enron was 14 years. All they did was defraud thousands of people out of $64 billion in retirement. Let that ****ing sink in.

 

My grandma worked for decades for Taystee Bread and was two years from a full pension. They were bought out by Wonder and she was laid off right before retirement. Now she gets $200/month. Don't worry, the executives still got their millions...but they worked hard for their money!

 

Don't even get me started on how we treat Native Americans.

 

Here's the thing...I know other countries are far worse. Maybe this isn't an American problem. Maybe it is a human/nature problem. Evolution and the survival of the fittest when we no longer have natural predators. But you know what...we are so ****ing sanctimonious and entitled...

 

We are number 1!!!

 

USA!! USA!! USA!!

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Everything is profit motivated. The top 1% used to be taxed at 80% in the 60s and 70s and we had exceptional funding (if you were white) for social programs and education. Many countries copied that same structure and now lead the world in economic mobility and growth. Some of our leaders try to bring it back and are called anti-American or communism. Companies have to make a profit so we don't dare raise the minimum wage (it had its most spending power in the early 80s) and now the working poor is the fastest growing group of people on welfare (behind the elderly and single moms) but **** you you lazy bums..we are cutting that too!

 

In my state you have to have a child under the age of 18 to access any welfare programs. Doesnt matter how destitute I am, I have to get pregnant to qualify for any kind of government assistance. Its super cool to know that in uncertain times I have absolutely no help from the government that Ive been paying taxes to my entire adult life.

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Everything is profit motivated. The top 1% used to be taxed at 80% in the 60s and 70s and we had exceptional funding (if you were white) for social programs and education. Many countries copied that same structure and now lead the world in economic mobility and growth. Some of our leaders try to bring it back and are called anti-American or communism. Companies have to make a profit so we don't dare raise the minimum wage (it had its most spending power in the early 80s) and now the working poor is the fastest growing group of people on welfare (behind the elderly and single moms) but **** you you lazy bums..we are cutting that too!

 

In my state you have to have a child under the age of 18 to access any welfare programs. Doesnt matter how destitute I am, I have to get pregnant to qualify for any kind of government assistance. Its super cool to know that in uncertain times I have absolutely no help from the government that Ive been paying taxes to my entire adult life.

 

What state? If you are a dependent, does your guardian qualify to receive benefits? I know there are some federal funding that is guaranteed through schools...but still that's fucked up.

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Michigan. I'm not a dependent, I'm 38 years old and was able to work full-time until recently. Technically, my mother is considered my dependent. But you have to have a child under the age of 18 to qualify, not be financially supporting your mother so she can stay at home with your elderly grandmother.

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Honestly, now I just assume most Libertarians are at least closet Boogalooers. One of my close friends is a raging Libertarian, so Facebook algorithms decided I wanted to follow a Jo Jorgensen meme group, and I've been treated to lots of dumb commentary any time I click on my group feed.

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