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Civil War 2 : Electric Boogaloo


52 replies to this topic

#1
Iceheart

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So. What do we think about the Boogaloo Bois?

As far as I can tell, its just the normal militia with a catchy new name. I have a hard time taking the militia seriously after growing up around them talking a big game but not doing anything but polish their guns. But considering the temperature of the world right now...

#2
Tank

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I think life is getting ruined for Jimmy Buffet fans and suburban dads who like to BBQ everywhere.


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#3
Metropolis

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Nothing wrong with good BBQ.
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#4
Iceheart

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You really think suburban dads in Hawaiian shirts produce good BBQ?

I took over grill duties from my dad the minute I could.
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#5
Zathras

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I'm far from being right wing (I consider myself a centrist), but I think we actually in the middle of a social-economic civil war, which I argue will lead to our demise.

 

 

I'll say it until I am blue in the face, but I think we are watching the erosion of US as a leading power in the world.  We've lost our moral authority on human rights, people have become so polarized and have been at each others' throats since the Bush 43 Administration, and I think we will see an economic collapse before long due to COVID.  When world powers and empires collapse, it can be in slow motion at first, and then things fall apart over night.  The USSR is a good example of that.  Chernobyl caused the beginning of the collapse in 1986s, and the USSR never recovered, but when the USSR did finally collapse a few years later, it fell pretty darn fast in 1991.

 

The irony is that the US attempted to "democratize" the world, including China by helping them become more capitalist, but in many ways, they influenced us more than we did them. When the US does finally collapse as a power (there will always be a US, just not as we know it), China, an authoritarian, communist regime that uses a variation of capitalism to sustain their power, will end up filling the vacuum the US leaves behind.


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#6
Destiny Skywalker

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We have too many idiots who want to glamorize war so they can feel like a badass. I have a few Libertarian friends who I could see falling in with people like this if their wives weren't around to smack them in the back of the head.
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#7
Brando

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You really think suburban dads in Hawaiian shirts produce good BBQ?

I took over grill duties from my dad the minute I could.


Since I technically live in the city, and not the suburbs, I wont argue.

#8
Zathras

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We have too many idiots who want to glamorize war so they can feel like a badass. I have a few Libertarian friends who I could see falling in with people like this if their wives weren't around to smack them in the back of the head.

Yeah, the US has always been pretty nationalist, but under Trump, nationalism has gone through the roof. I also feel that Trump has promoted the idea of devaluing people, and idiots like these Bugaloo boys or whatever they are called (I never heard of them until this thread), are gloming onto that concept and think its okay to openly be racist and militant.



#9
Iceheart

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We have too many idiots who want to glamorize war so they can feel like a badass. I have a few Libertarian friends who I could see falling in with people like this if their wives weren't around to smack them in the back of the head.

Well, when you watch Fox News and all they can do is slobber over OUR AMERICAN HEROES, but you couldn't or wouldn't serve when you were 18, how else are you going to feel like real patriot? They aren't given many other options, especially the men.

 

 

 


Yeah, the US has always been pretty nationalist, but under Trump, nationalism has gone through the roof. I also feel that Trump has promoted the idea of devaluing people, and idiots like these Bugaloo boys or whatever they are called (I never heard of them until this thread), are gloming onto that concept and think its okay to openly be racist and militant.

 

This is why I'm kind of surprised it's the Boogaloo showing out, although I heard the Proud Boys have been experimenting with vehicular manslaughter lately.



#10
Zathras

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First, Boogaloo Boys.  Now Proud boys? Never heard of them, either.  Just did a quick google search, and they all sound like horrible people.  If Antifa qualifies as a terrorist organization (and I believe the most extreme ones do), so do those nitwits. 



#11
Iceheart

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You dont follow the news much, do you?

This is why I cant stand the government villainizing Antifa. Not that they're perfect little angels, but there are some legitimately frightening white supremacist groups that are very active and mobile right now. But they're hardcore Trump supporters, so they can literally get away with murder and they're "fine people."


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#12
Cerina

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I'm far from being right wing (I consider myself a centrist), but I think we actually in the middle of a social-economic civil war, which I argue will lead to our demise.

 

 

I'll say it until I am blue in the face, but I think we are watching the erosion of US as a leading power in the world.  We've lost our moral authority on human rights, people have become so polarized and have been at each others' throats since the Bush 43 Administration, and I think we will see an economic collapse before long due to COVID.  When world powers and empires collapse, it can be in slow motion at first, and then things fall apart over night.  The USSR is a good example of that.  Chernobyl caused the beginning of the collapse in 1986s, and the USSR never recovered, but when the USSR did finally collapse a few years later, it fell pretty darn fast in 1991.

 

The irony is that the US attempted to "democratize" the world, including China by helping them become more capitalist, but in many ways, they influenced us more than we did them. When the US does finally collapse as a power (there will always be a US, just not as we know it), China, an authoritarian, communist regime that uses a variation of capitalism to sustain their power, will end up filling the vacuum the US leaves behind.

I can't argue with this. Noah and I are wrapping up a 4 year world history cycle where we've covered ancients to the mid-1990s. The last half of this last book has been non-stop revolts, revolutions, and just plain ol' government takeovers. I mean, history has been littered with these events but the last half of the 20th century is just...dude. Even Noah has noticed the similarities to our current situation and most of these others. 

(Side note, if you have kids aged 6-12, I highly recommend The Story of the World 4 book series. They're a homeschool staple, but totally worth it for everyone. Hell, they're even good for adults who want a "quick" survey of world history. I'm really looking forward to going through them again with Luke in a few years.)


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#13
Marc DuQuesne

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I've been relistening to the Revolutions podcast by Mike Duncan on my commute (worth checking out). Pretty eerie listening to him talking about the French revolution right now, with barricades being erected, autonomous zones being declared, and guillotines being built. If the economy doesn't snap back quickly from coronavirus we're in trouble.
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#14
Zathras

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Really, when you think about it, before the US was the most myopic, navel gazing society ever in human history that we are now, the US was largely a nation that was concerned more with internal affairs, although there was always that Manifest Destiny element, too.  This sentiment I am expressing here just might serve as an epitaph of the US (as we know it).

 

We became a world power largely because the Allies and Axis powers slugged it out so much, they weakened themselves, and Russia collapsed and became the USSR during and after WWI.  After WWII, European powers all but lost their empires, while the Soviets and the US and a distant 3rd in China became hegemonic and divided the world among themselves. After the Soviet Empire collapsed, the US was left as the lone superpower.  The thing is I believe the US was used to having that balance with the USSR, and once that was lost, the US itself became lost for a time.  We felt it was up to us to freedom-ize the world (hubris), and we did well economically in the 1990s doing it. Part of that was througheconomic treaties with former enemies like Russia and China, with the idea all we had to do is spread capitalism and "freedom" will follow, thereby remaking these enemies in our image, much like we did for Europe under the Marshall Plan, as well as Japan (more hubris). 

 

The thing is, we also neglected other countries, and even exploited them (eg Africa, Latin America, the Middle East) or propped up regimes that should have been our enemies, but became politically or economically expedient to support, and failed to take into account that our former enemies (Russia and China) weren't exactly friends either, and sought a way to a) weaken the US and b) fill that power vacuum we would and will leave behind.   Between our own poor actions, and not considering other nations' as equals, we ended up exporting less freedom, and more of an extension of Manifest Destiny.  This lead to the rise of radicalism and terrorsim, which led to the conflicts in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other regions, that has literally taken place for nearly 20 years now, and piled on mountains of debt on top of mountains of debt.

 

We have learned the wrong lessons of our wars, and militarized our society.  Not just police, but everything in life. Also, unfettered capitalism has wrought a prevailing attitude within the US that it really is every person for themselves.  We might pat ourselves on the back with self congratulations for having gofundmes for various disasters, but I have to say much of our society is very self-centered and self-serving.  Technology has advanced and brought with it bad consequences along with the good.  I think we as a society have learned to devalue people, and ourselves. We have somehow become a nation that we all collectively look our for number one, and screw anyone who gets in our way.   So, it is no surprise to me that we have reached a breaking point, and we are seeing the civil unrest we are seeing because that is the equal and opposite reaction to the last 20 years (really much more, but mostly the last 20 ) of a being a society that has become corrupt, selfish, and quite honestly toxic in many ways.  

 

Perhaps we started out with good intentions post WW2, but since then, much like the Delian League with Athens at is head before us, we have devolved and practiced hubris and put our self-interests above others for so long, we are finally reaping the crop we have sown.  Perhaps we no longer are worthy or deserve the title of being a world leader.  Perhaps what we need is something that will humble us for a while, so that we can get our collective moral compasses re-calibrated.  Sadly, that means some country, like the Chinese Government (government, not the people), which is less than ethical,will fill that vacuum we leave behind.  


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#15
Marc DuQuesne

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Hard to disagree. The scariest thing for the rest of the world is what happens after. If you're lucky you end up with at least three pieces, distracted by animosity toward each other and fighting over scraps for a century. If you're unlucky you get Napoleon ×10, looking to settle scores with the people who took advantage of our misfortunes while planting our flag in your yard. We could easily be the bad guys of the 21st century, the ones that make the whole world a wasteland and call it peace.

#16
Zathras

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Well, I think developed countries will mostly be fine, unless there is a world-wide economic downturn.  The US will largely be fine, just will change very much, and I think our days as a world superpower are numbered, IMHO.  It will come down to the US deciding to either redirect its money and resources towards its citizens that need the help, or continuing an unsustainable defense budget to flex its muscle world wide, much like the former USSR had to nearly 30 years ago.  We are basically re-learning a lesson that the UK, France, Germany, and the USSR learned before us.  And China may have to learn that lesson after us.  

 

It's the rest of the 2nd and 3rd world countries I think will have the hardest time.  For example, Africa was colonized by Europe, and just as they were starting to come out of a colonial period, China has stepped into many African countries and plundered the natural resources the Europeans didn't get to. China doesn't typically fall into the short term (quarterly) mentality the West (especially the US) has, they think longer term.  Some ways they are smarter than the West, but the Chinese government loves control  and hates dissent, and since China herself is around 2 billion in population, life is also cheap there.  Let alone other countries in Africa, for example.  



#17
Iceheart

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I'm 100% okay with not being a superpower anymore.


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#18
Cerina

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I 100% am okay with redirecting money to our citizens. 


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#19
Burt

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I'm 100% okay with not being a superpower anymore.

I'm not. A Russia/China led world will be worse than the USA in that role.



#20
Iceheart

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Agreed that it will be worse. But the time to do something about that came and went long before we had any say about anything, so Im just going to focus on how doing away with all the American exceptionalism will hopefully help us make better decisions in the future.

#21
Burt

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Agreed that it will be worse. But the time to do something about that came and went long before we had any say about anything, so Im just going to focus on how doing away with all the American exceptionalism will hopefully help us make better decisions in the future.

True. 2016 was the beginning of some fan fiction timeline.

 

The boogaloo guys in my state (OK) are somehow making the masks a political issue, and all I can say is "We deserve this." I get that they're mouthbreathers and all, but it's just a damned mask.

 

It's like you said in the first post, they talk a big game but focus on piddly things because it's easier.



#22
The Kurgan

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We really are looking like Rome 2.0, aren't we?

 

I find it a fascinating process, and especially how quickly it happened. 30 years ago, the Berlin Wall had just come down and major reforms were being touted in what were passing for America's rivals. The USSR was breaking up and China was plunging headlong into market reforms. Surely democracy was to follow, despite the setback at Tienanmen Square. Plus, Nelson Mandella had been freed in South Africa and they were on the road towards being a functional multi-racial democracy. Only 30 years. I not only remember it, but was on the cusp of adulthood then. If you weren't there, it's hard to convey the atmosphere of that time. The optimism was palpable.

 

What it did was lull us into a complacency unparalleled in human history. Imagine the hubris of actually believing that the triumph of global capitalism had actually ended history? But that was the mood in the early 1990s.  

 

30 years is not a long time on the historical stage. 



#23
Marc DuQuesne

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Im just going to focus on how doing away with all the American exceptionalism will hopefully help us make better decisions in the future.


I think that's the wrong idea. I think we need a new narrative of American exceptionalism, one that acknowledges the mistakes made and the work to be done without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. As Dan Carlin (one of my favorite people these days) would say, we need an America that matches the marketing material. Instead of fixing the discrepancies between the marketing material and reality, building the shining city on the hill we were supposed to be, we are on a path of punishment and self loathing.

#24
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I'm 100% okay with not being a superpower anymore.

I'm not. A Russia/China led world will be worse than the USA in that role.

Nah, it'll be different for sure but not worse by any means. There will be things that would be better and things that would be worse. Ecologically the US isn't better than China, in fact China is very swiftly adapting to green energy cause they're sick of choking themselves to death.
Russia is an interesting one, their mindset is just totally different to the American people. And the British too to be fair, but I don't think a Russia/China dominated world would be that much worse than the world we have currently, and have had for the past 20 or more years.

#25
Marc DuQuesne

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A China/Russia dominated world is the victory of amoral authoritarianism over pluralism. Without the U.S. to stand on the other side you won't like the results.



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