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Trying to Make Sense of Something That Happened Last Year


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Hi, all. Your pal John is here again with another annoying life musing. Well, this time it's not anything that's bothering me, but something I've been thinking about since it happen and would like to know your thoughts.

First, please refer to this thread for all the background info you need. Then incident has to do with the best friend I mentioned at the end.

Anyway, so I worked with that girl last year, was pursuing her for about a month, then it was over. Things were awkward between us for a little bit, but just days after posting that thread, I approached her at lunch and said, "Look, I get the message you're trying to send me, and it's cool; but we still need to see each other five days a week. I'd rather things were warm and friendly, so let's just wipe the slate clean." She agreed, and things were pretty okay moving forward. We even had the same circle of "friends" whom we ate lunch with every day, we sat at the same table, talked and joked, and things seemed just fine.

That was July of 2019. Fast forward to October. I'm at a night club, in a smaller, quieter (but way overcrowded) upper room when I see the girl's friend I talked about toward the end of that other thread. As I mentioned in that thread, she had always been non-verbally hostile to me, so I tried to avoid being seen by her. That changed when she had to walk to the other end of the room and back for some reason, walked right past my personal space and made unavoidable eye contact. "Uh, hey! How's it going?" I said. She wrinkled up her nose and ran away. Well, that's one weird broad, I thought, then didn't think much more about it.

She approaches me a minute or two later and says, "We need to talk. Leave my friend the f*** alone. Blah blah blah. Don't be a perv." Bear in mind that that was the most she had ever spoken to me up to that point, and that my interest in her friend was never just about "being a perv;" I legitimately wanted to get to know her as an actual human being.

Anyway, so I think that's the end of it, but later she comes over and starts heckling me again. She accuses me of being a skinhead and a white supremacist (because I'm bald), said I'm fat (that's true), a psycho, and a whole slew of other things only a paranoid person thinks about someone they hardly know. Further, she kept demanded to know what I was doing there, because apparently the girl I used to like was in the same room (though I never saw her).

It became apparent that she wanted to bully me into leaving. I stood my ground once again, and she comes back later with a bouncer, saying I was stalking her friend. She walked away, the dude asked me what was going on, and I told him I wasn't entirely sure. By the sound of it, he walked away thinking she was a kook.

She approaches me for the fourth time, aware that her lame attempt at getting me thrown out hadn't worked. She said she hated me, to which I replied that she didn't even know me, that I don't hate anybody, and that I felt sorry for her. She went on and on, angrier and angrier, and even threatened to punch me at one point. I was watching the sanity leave her, watching her descend into madness, as I had heard oftentimes from the other girl that she was often wont to do. I asked her to please leave me alone, to which she said I felt intimidated by her. I'm not afraid of a ninety-pound girl, and I was more exasperated than anything, but I found it telling that she basically admitted to trying to bully me out of there.

Anyway, I can't quite remember if it was at the end of that encounter, or if she went away again and approached me a fifth time, but by that point I just threw my hands up and left. I figured my good time was already ruined, so there was no harm in letting this crazy girl think she'd "won." As I descended the stairs, she came to the doorway and pointed at me threateningly.

Bear in mind that through all of this, I had never once spotted the girl I used to like. I assume she was there as well, as the crazy girl seemed to strongly imply, but I can't even say that for certain. Well, I couldn't at the time, until I heard from someone else two months later that the girl in question was fully aware of what had happened and seemed pissed off at her friend for what she did, but not me. In fact, the next Monday after the incident, she came up to me and smiled and asked how I was doing. I was wondering at the time if she even knew about the incident.

Fortunately, she wasn't stupid enough to do anything to me at work, though I did report the incident to my supervisor lest anything did happen, saying that I'd be filing harassment charges if it did. HR kept an eye on if from afar, didn't see the need to step in and talk to anyone at the time, and nothing really happened, aside from awkward silences when she and I were in the kitchen together, or skipping each other at the company-wide 3:30 fist bump we used to do.

Things were no different between me and the girl I used to like, though. We weren't close friends or anything, but she shared the same circle, sat next to each other, laughed at each other's jokes, interacted on a friendly level. When I lost my job back in January, I messed her on Facebook and apologized for the incident, stating that I knew her friend would never apologize for what happened, so I was apologizing for her. She didn't really acknowledge it, but she did wish me luck moving forward.

Some things to know about her friend: she is the most promiscuous person I've ever met, having hooked up with my outside sales rep when he was visit from out of state, and many other people. She also is reportedly a huge coke user and general drug addict, spends all her money on booze until she's broke, has her rich grandmother pay for everything she needs, and becomes insane at the slightest provocation (all of this comes mainly from the other girl). But she is also supermodel-level beautiful and had to deal with the sudden, tragic death of her father three years ago. My psychologist said it sounded like borderline personality disorder.

I've been thinking about that night a lot ever since. Part of me wishes I'd been colder, more calculating, and had refused to leave. The other part of me wishes I'd attempted to show her kindness, to tell her that it sounds like she's coming from a lifetime of pain, and that I was not the problem but the object of her ire at that moment.

I don't know. It's something that I've thought a lot about, and I've been trying to make sense of it. I wonder what will happen should our paths ever cross again, once this whole quarantine business is over and I'm finally free to go barhopping again. Yes, it's old news, and it's not something that keeps me up at night or anything like that. The funny thing is, it was old news when it happened. The other girl and I had already resolved our differences three months prior to the incident.

Thoughts? I know, I'm long-winded.

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All y'all need to come to the next Zoom meeting.   ZN...I will put on a Spotify techno playlist, buy glow sticks, and turn my light on and off the whole time you are in the room.

lol

I'll add, Zerimar, that being reflective is a great thing- trying to make sense of things in order to better ones self is an admirable thing. So kudos to you. But also don't try over think things, it

You can go down the rabbit hole of "I should have said this or that" to spite her. You might have had short term satisfaction, but in the end, it wouldn't have mattered anyway no matter what you said. She may have been drunk, off her meds, just an a-hole to begin with, or whatever. Bottom line is she's not in your life anymore (I hope). Leave it at that, and don't dwell.

 

Also, I'd say don't date someone (or pursue someone) in the work place. For exactly THAT reason. I learned that once long ago. Most people can be adults about it when they meet at work, date a few times, and it fizzles, but there are some out there that can't let things go, and will even use Title IX as a weapon. That's why I always advise against it when someone asks me what I think when they are wanting to ask another person at work out. Just not worth it.

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The more I read from you Zerimar, the more I get the feeling there is much more to the story than you ever let on. To the point where I highly question your recounting of events, and your perception of them, as being accurate to reality. So its really hard to impart any kind of advice, since I don't really know the first thing about you or the reality of the situations you bring to us here. My instinct is to not be particularly trustworthy of a person who refers to women as "broads", unless I know them well and I know they are being very tounge-in-cheek, and my instinct is to not be trustworthy of anyone who considers another person's "promiscuity" an indictment of their character, let alone anyone's business but their own.

 

However I can say that in my experience the less energy you spend thinking about people who have done you wrong/ you think have done you wrong, the better your life will be. Water off a duck's back, innit.

Edited by Odine
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Who were you with at the nightclub? Was it for a workplace event or with friends from work at the club? As that's some context that could explain the girl's behaviour. I mean no offence, if you were just at the club there by yourself and they also just happened to be there, I could kind of understand her reaction.

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The more I read from you Zerimar, the more I get the feeling there is much more to the story than you ever let on. To the point where I highly question your recounting of events, and your perception of them, as being accurate to reality. So its really hard to impart any kind of advice, since I don't really know the first thing about you or the reality of the situations you bring to us here. My instinct is to not be particularly trustworthy of a person who refers to women as "broads", unless I know them well and I know they are being very tounge-in-cheek, and my instinct is to not be trustworthy of anyone who considers another person's "promiscuity" an indictment of their character, let alone anyone's business but themselves.

 

However I can say that in my experience the less energy you spend thinking about people who have done you wrong/ you think have done you wrong, the better your life will be. Water off a duck's back, innit.

You can question my character, and I can understand why you would, but if you ask anyone who knows me, you'll know that my recalling of events is always 100% truthful from my perspective. I will grant you that there may be factors I'm not aware of, but I tell these things from the way I experienced them and I never lie. In fact, my brute honesty has gotten me into trouble at times.

 

I don't refer to women as broads; I tend to only use pejoratives in reference to people who are hostile. What I actually thought when it happened was an entirely different word that I chose to substitute here. My point about her promiscuity attests to known symptoms that support the borderline personality disorder theory.

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Who were you with at the nightclub? Was it for a workplace event or with friends from work at the club? As that's some context that could explain the girl's behaviour. I mean no offence, if you were just at the club there by yourself and they also just happened to be there, I could kind of understand her reaction.

I always go alone. It's how I am. I am introverted and cannot stand being around friends very often. I don't have a problem with strangers, though. It's hard to explain.

 

I knew then, as now, that that was undoubtedly a factor in her perception. One of the things she drilled me about was who I was there with. On that particular night, I had just come from a speed dating event down the street.

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You yourself admit that often you come on strong, and that you can seem over-eager and now also too honest.

 

Is it not possible your over eagerness and forwardness has been misconstrued by this friend-of-the-girl who now perceives you as a creep, who then calls you out on it embarrassingly rather than her having personality disorder? Or at the very least a combination of both? Is it not possible that your gentlemanly overtures were not as welcome and/or gentlemanly as you perceive and this girl just happened to be a bit smashed and unceremoniously called you out on it?

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I always go alone. It's how I am. I am introverted and cannot stand being around friends very often. I don't have a problem with strangers, though. It's hard to explain.

I knew then, as now, that that was undoubtedly a factor in her perception. One of the things she drilled me about was who I was there with. On that particular night, I had just come from a speed dating event down the street.

 

I can relate, I travel a lot for work (well. . .used to) and spend a lot of free time alone at bars and have honestly come to enjoy it, even if most of the time my head is buried in my phone and with a pint.

 

But I think that's the key in her perception, irrespective of whether it's true it's understandable. She would of known the history you and this girl have had (and heard from her) and she sees you alone at a club they just happen to be at? No offence mate I'd be drawing a similar conclusion.

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No, I definitely get that. The only thing I can think of is what I would be thinking were I her. How could I have possibly known where they would be? I don't have psychic powers. I guess it is harder to think rationally when you're drunk, though.

You yourself admit that often you come on strong, and that you can seem over-eager and now also too honest.

Is it not possible your over eagerness and forwardness has been misconstrued by this friend-of-the-girl who now perceives you as a creep, who then calls you out on it embarrassingly rather than her having personality disorder? Or at the very least a combination of both? Is it not possible that your gentlemanly overtures were not as welcome and/or gentlemanly as you perceive and this girl just happened to be a bit smashed and unceremoniously called you out on it?

Oh, I always admitted that my advancements were unwelcome, as the previous thread and the first post of this thread indicate. But like I said, that was three months old by the time of this encounter. There had been no awkward or hostile encounters with the girl since then. Just the opposite, in fact.

It's definitely a combination of both, I will readily admit that. Piecing together things the other girl has said about her friend's behavior, as well as things other people have said about her, she is definitely damaged. She understandably wanted to be protective of her friend that night, but the way she went about it was far more erratic than how any normal person would react. How is it possible to bear so much anger and hatred toward someone you barely know and have hardly ever interacted with? Why would she think I was a white supremacist, based solely on my looks? She'd always been somewhat hostile toward me from the very beginning, even before the girl I liked started working where I worked. In fact, I remember thinking the fact that she was her best friend might prove to be an obstacle, because she was always very cold to me for no apparent reason. I don't know if it's because I remind her of someone she used to know or what is, but it's definitely no normal.

And don't think that I'm angry. If anything, I feel pity toward her. I just wish to make sense of the whole thing.

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Everybody is the hero in their own story, but look at it from a different perspective.

 

Youre a 35 year old hitting on a 21 year old co-worker. Your age alone creates a power imbalance, plus youre going to look creepy and pervy in that situation 100% of the time.

 

Its almost definite that the girl complained to her friends about you, and then you randomly show up where this girl is, engaging in an activity that few people do alone. Even pervy guys go to nightclubs with friends. The friend had every reason to think that youre a creepy stalker. I would assume the same thing in her situation.

 

It seems obvious that you dont know how to act around women, and men that dont know how to act around women seem pervy, whether they are or not.

 

You tend to post stories where youre the victim, because thats your perception and I believe you are being honest with that perception but that doesnt mean your perception matches anyone elses.

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Yeah . . . I've gotten way better at my interactions with women, though. I'm learning things in my thirties that I should have learned in my twenties, or even my teens. To be honest with you, this whole experience was actually a huge setback in the progress I've made up till this point. I've fared better with women before and after it. I think the lesson I'll take from it is twofold:

 

1. Don't go for girls fifteen years younger than me.
2. Don't attempt to date at work.

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I think the lesson I'll take from it is twofold:

 

1. Don't go for girls fifteen years younger than me.

2. Don't attempt to date at work.

Yeah, that is a good way to go, IMHO. Even 10 years is a big gap, at least until one is over 30. I think someone who is 35, probably should look for someone at least 30. I think most people really aren't mature until around 30. When one is in their 20s, they are still finding themselves. Brando's post in particular, rings true.

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The key to interacting with women is to treat them like actual people. You seem to view women like "potential partners" and "other". Women are just people. There's no secret code to unlock or steps to take or rules to know. Just. People.

 

But yeah...your actions do seem like they'd be pretty pervy and creeper-ish.

 

And that girl sounds crazy.

 

But your psychiatrist should know better than to throw out a diagnosis to you like that based on hearsay.

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I used to think I was an introvert. I spent my high school and college years avoiding most parties and big social things because I always felt awkward. I was fine with a few friends at a time, and I had a wide cross-section of friends. I was/am also very self-aware and have struggled with self-esteem, so I totally get not always knowing the best way to have human interactions.

 

I've more recently decided I am NOT an introvert-- I had to come to this notion working on a TV show where I was required to be in charge of the writer's room while the show-runner was off on set. I actually don't mind being seen at all, especially if it is in an arena where I know I am already being taken seriously.

 

But put me in a situation where people don't know me, or there is a lot of noise, or if it is super crowded, and I don't do well. I haven't seen live music in about 13 years.

 

Point being, I fully get that sometimes, a real world situation might make you act or behave as not your true self, because you are stuck in your head, or thinking you have to act a certain way. I also get why, as somebody who may not love being social in the larger world, that we can get wired to think our everyday life is the only place to meet a prospective mate.

 

I don't think that's predatory by definition, but while it makes sense when you're in school, once you enter the work force it's more problematic. I fully recall in my first few jobs being excited whenever there was a hot new hire or client. Once you get to management levels though, you see what sort dangerous situation that is. Even if the connection is a best-case scenario, it can go south quick.

 

Second point being, as somebody who struggles with self esteem, I've have been training myself via the standard drive-thru psychology edicts of love yourself first, other people's opinion of you shouldn't matter, blah blah blah. But at the same time, if you get a lot of criticism that sounds familiar, it's hard to ignore... and maybe you shouldn't.

 

I'll use this as an allegory-- I write in a vacuum. Even on a TV show where you break story as a group, when it's time to go to script, I'm alone in a room typing (which we ALL KNOW I am terrible at). What I write is always up for review. If it's TV, it has to go through the room and showrunner, then the studio has to approve it, then the network, and sometimes, even the cast. Film isn't much different, there will be a mile long list of producers to make happy, and possibly the studio as well. They could shoot the whole thing and still slap me with rewrites for pickups/reshoots.

 

I get a LOT of notes from people who don't do my job, but still feel as though they are better suited to comment on it. Sometimes, that's not a bad thing. I over-think, I am frankly (a little bit) smarter than my usual audience. Sometimes I make things more complex than they need to be. (Like this metaphor)

 

Third point being, as the notes come in and stack up, it's up to me to decide which ones to consider, and which ones to push back on, and which ones to ignore because they are stupid. But if I get the same note, more than a few times, from multiple people who don't talk to each other, then I pretty much have to agree there is some sort of issue.

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I'll add, Zerimar, that being reflective is a great thing- trying to make sense of things in order to better ones self is an admirable thing. So kudos to you. But also don't try over think things, it can lead to dark places if you spend too much time in the internal upstairs. Let shit go and keep moving forward. Just not with 20 year olds, or co workers... But you already came to that conclusion. Also clients aren't a good idea either. In fact personal/professional should be kept well separate.

 

fuck im glad I'm not trying to date people anymore.

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That it is! I feel pressured to get married and have children because my father is seventy-five, and I'm three and a half years away from forty. Most of my classmates have been married from their early to mid-twenties. I guess I should be thankful, though, because a good many of them are already on their second marriages.

Anyway, my primary focus in creating this particular thread was on the incident, not so much on the relationship itself: that got resolved a while ago. I do thank everyone for their advice, though.

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Alot to unpack here

 

1-A fat, bald man who is 15 years a woman's senior trying to date that woman is creepy in and of itself. Im not criticizing your looks, just using the words you used to describe yourself. Why would any girl be interested in a guy who is nearly a generation older and as you said "fat and bald"

 

2-Someone your age, I could say our age because Im guessing we are close in age, being at a nightclub alone is weird and in a way creepy. Its one thing to go to a sports bar or pub and sit alone, a nightclub is different. Especially when Im guessing you are a decade+ older than most of the club goers.

 

3-Your whole view of women seems warped. You come across like you feel since in your mind you are a good, nice guy that you like deserve a girl that you like. Simply not how it works. Then even to mention the girl who confronted you in the club being "the most promiscuis person you know" is just insane. Like that is some kind of bad thing. That girl has every right to sleep with however many guys she wants and it doesn't reflect negatively upon her in any way.

 

4-If your account of the night in the club is accurate the girl was out of line but I can almost guarantee her actions came as a result of something the girl you liked said. Most people are nice and that girl was ncie to you. But Id be shocked f the one you liked didn't say something to her friends about not being happy you were there, then the friend probably was just like "im going to take this into my own hands". She may have overreacted but she didn't act without some prompt from the girl you liked.

 

Im not trying to come down on you and really I feel bad for you because I think pretty obviously you have trouble socializing and understand social norms. I mean you said that you don't like being around friends, thats odd. Most people are going to think someone who behaves that way is odd. If you don't think that hitting on a girl 15 years younger than you is a bit weird, if you don't think going to a nightclub alone is a bit weird then you just don;t know what most people would consider weird or creepy.

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To answer the thread here is how you make sense of that night:

 

You are an old man to these kids in their early 20s, you hit on 1 despite having no chance with her. The girl though is a nice person who was nice to you and wouldn't completely shoot you down because she doesn't have it in her to be mean. She then complains to her friends about you. You show up to the club they are at, she complains to her friends "I can't believe he's here". The friend says "Im so tired of this, just go tell him you are tired of this." The girl you like is too nice and doesn't want to make a scene anyway but the friend was like "I can't take this anymore constantly hearing you complain about him, Im gonna go take care of this."

 

Thats it. Thats the situation and exactly what happened.

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That it is! I feel pressured to get married and have children because my father is seventy-five, and I'm three and a half years away from forty. Most of my classmates have been married from their early to mid-twenties. I guess I should be thankful, though, because a good many of them are already on their second marriages.

 

Anyway, my primary focus in creating this particular thread was on the incident, not so much on the relationship itself: that got resolved a while ago. I do thank everyone for their advice, though.

I don't think you can separate the two. The incident was a direct result of the "relationship."

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Depending where he lives it's not impossible. The town I grew up in, whenever I go back to visit my parents and go to the bar, I see someone I used to know from high school. There are two bars in town. Not everywhere is New York City.

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Depending where he lives it's not impossible. The town I grew up in, whenever I go back to visit my parents and go to the bar, I see someone I used to know from high school. There are two bars in town. Not everywhere is New York City.

I get this, I live in a small town too. Just from the story it doesnt seem like him being in the same place as them was a 1 time occurance.

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Depending where he lives it's not impossible. The town I grew up in, whenever I go back to visit my parents and go to the bar, I see someone I used to know from high school. There are two bars in town. Not everywhere is New York City.

 

That's no lie. I spent time in a small town. It had 2 bars, both redneck. They only had 2 types of music, country and western. One bar was literally called the Sorry Gulch Saloon. Yikes!

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