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#26
Tank

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The fact that you are saying they HAD to redeem him is exactly why they shouldn't have. One of the reasons Vader being Lukes dad worked is because no one saw it coming. One of the reasons him turning back to good worked was because no one saw it coming. Surprising storytelling is one of the legacies of Star Wars.


The problem is NOT doing something expected is less of a shock twist than doing something unexpected.
Having Kylo stay evil because savvy audience members expect him to be redeemed won't play as a twist.

 

Yeah, I think he had to be redeemed otherwise it wouldn't have felt right. But it was on them to find a new and interesting way to do it that we wouldn't expect. It's not like we didn't know Rey was going to beat the Emperor. SW wouldn't end like that. But they didn't do it in an interesting or way that had any weight behind it.

 

I WANTED Kylo to be redeemed, but I didn't like the way they did it. I'd argue it was as random and weakly motivated as Anakin turning evil in the PT.



#27
The Choc

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Myself I would have liked to have seen the whole idea of redemption being examined here. Obviously there is a balance, you can;t make the movie be overly philosophical. But a scene or two where the whole idea that Vader can do the awful things he does and then at the very end of his life, when he is already defeated by Luke, make a last minute change of heart and he is "redeemed" and able to ya know go to Jedi heaven. Is that right? Does he deserve redemption?

 

This is the way I think you could have made it all feel like one big story I-IX. Examine whats come before. Question it and then give answers that maybe aren;t exactly what we'd expect. This way you are building to new answers that potentially lead to a new ending that you can frame as being different and therefore potentially more long lasting and definitive. As it is we just have Kylo's story mirroring Anakin's with his redemption. Reys mirroring Lukes in that she finds out she is related to someone evil and is scared that evil is inside her. You have the Emperor being defeated again with no reasoning given as to why he cannot come back again. 

 

If you just are reiterating and answering the same questions in the same way as in the OT then really whats the point? I mean I get its to make money and have entertaining movies, but really? Whats the point? You need to ask different question and you need to give different answers to the questions that were asked in the OT. In the end when I saw the first trailer for TROS I could tell they had not taken that approach. Which made me now the best I could hope for was just a fun action movie. Which actually woulda been fine but I think they even failed at that.

 

Johnson began to question the past in TLJ. The whole "the Jedi must end" stuff from Luke. Then he goes into saying how they allowed Sidious to take control and how they don't own the Force. That's all good stuff and a good start, he should have even gone a step further in specifics of what the Jedi did wrong in my opinion. This questioning of the Jedi is exactly what was needed though. This way you can frame what they did wrong, have Rey do something different and then you can say "hey her doing this differently than the Jedi did in the past is why this victory is different and longer lasting." Then in TROS they go exactly the opposite way. She is actually trying to be "one with all the other Jedi". Luke;s whole "a Jedi's weapon needs more respect." is a total refute of the questioning of the Jedi that began in TLJ and Luke in TLJ is more just made out to be a jerk who has come to his senses. Rather than someone who was maybe on the right track with his questioning of the Jedi way. And really there is SO much you can question about the Jedi. From the taking of infants from their family (which mirrors what the First Order does) to their now allowing attachment to others, to their not allowing basic human emotions like anger or fear. If you examine the mistakes of the Jedi and then they get corrected in the ST thats how you give the story an ending. Thats how you make the ST an essential and important part of the entire saga. 

 

In the end JJ and Disney I think just chickened out. Too many fans don't like ANYTHING that changes how they look at the OT. So they chickened out and finished the story in the most obvious ways you ever possibly could. They bring the old bad guy back and beat him again, saying he was the bad guy the whole time working in the shadows. Then they give no reason his defeat this time is permanent anyway. They give the exact same storyline with the villain being redeemed. The exact same storyline with the hero being related to evil. They were so afraid of doing anything that infringes upon the OT or even the PT in some ways. They ended up doing the thing that most fans were afraid of when the ST was announced which was 1-undoing the ending of ROTJ, which they did by having the Emperor still be around and 2-just rehashing the OT so whats the point. 

 

As for the idea of him staying evil being a twist, its not. I never said it was. You can have interesting and unexpected story telling without a twist. Rey being a "nobody" is not a twist at all. In fact its pretty straight forward story telling and is, I think, quite interesting. Her being a Palpatine is a twist and is about the least interesting thing ever. 



#28
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Johnson began to question the past in TLJ. The whole "the Jedi must end" stuff from Luke. Then he goes into saying how they allowed Sidious to take control and how they don't own the Force. That's all good stuff and a good start, he should have even gone a step further in specifics of what the Jedi did wrong in my opinion. This questioning of the Jedi is exactly what was needed though. This way you can frame what they did wrong, have Rey do something different and then you can say "hey her doing this differently than the Jedi did in the past is why this victory is different and longer lasting." Then in TROS they go exactly the opposite way. She is actually trying to be "one with all the other Jedi". Luke;s whole "a Jedi's weapon needs more respect." is a total refute of the questioning of the Jedi that began in TLJ and Luke in TLJ is more just made out to be a jerk who has come to his senses. Rather than someone who was maybe on the right track with his questioning of the Jedi way. And really there is SO much you can question about the Jedi. From the taking of infants from their family (which mirrors what the First Order does) to their now allowing attachment to others, to their not allowing basic human emotions like anger or fear. If you examine the mistakes of the Jedi and then they get corrected in the ST thats how you give the story an ending. Thats how you make the ST an essential and important part of the entire saga. 
 
In the end JJ and Disney I think just chickened out... 

I love this. In TLJ when Luke tells Rey about Darth Sidious taking control right from under the Jedi's noses, I felt that's where he was going with this. In his studies and through his experiences, Luke had realized in their own way, the Jedi were just as bad as the Sith. This knowledge combined with Kylo's fall would have been an excellent explanation as to why Luke felt the Jedi had to end while also connecting all 9 films.

But as you mentioned, Disney is too chicken to have explored ideas like this. Not to mention there was the silly notion, which was even echoed by some in this forum, that Disney had to dissociate itself from the PT as much as possible. Nonsense when you are making a part 7-9 of a franchise. All they had to do was make great films and no one would have cared if there were echoes of the PT woven into the storylines.



#29
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Johnson began to question the past in TLJ. The whole "the Jedi must end" stuff from Luke. Then he goes into saying how they allowed Sidious to take control and how they don't own the Force. That's all good stuff and a good start, he should have even gone a step further in specifics of what the Jedi did wrong in my opinion. This questioning of the Jedi is exactly what was needed though. This way you can frame what they did wrong, have Rey do something different and then you can say "hey her doing this differently than the Jedi did in the past is why this victory is different and longer lasting." Then in TROS they go exactly the opposite way. She is actually trying to be "one with all the other Jedi". Luke;s whole "a Jedi's weapon needs more respect." is a total refute of the questioning of the Jedi that began in TLJ and Luke in TLJ is more just made out to be a jerk who has come to his senses. Rather than someone who was maybe on the right track with his questioning of the Jedi way. And really there is SO much you can question about the Jedi. From the taking of infants from their family (which mirrors what the First Order does) to their now allowing attachment to others, to their not allowing basic human emotions like anger or fear. If you examine the mistakes of the Jedi and then they get corrected in the ST thats how you give the story an ending. Thats how you make the ST an essential and important part of the entire saga. 
 
In the end JJ and Disney I think just chickened out... 

I love this. In TLJ when Luke tells Rey about Darth Sidious taking control right from under the Jedis noses, I felt maybe thats where he was going with this. In his studies and through his experiences, he had realized in their own way, the Jedi were just as bad as the Sith. This knowledge combined with Kyloa fall would have been an excellent explanation as to why Luke felt the Jedi had to end while also connecting all 9 films.

But as you mentioned, Disney is too chicken to have explored ideas like this. Not to mention there was the silly notion, which was even echoed by some in this forum, that Disney had to dissociate itself from the PT as much as possible. Nonsense when you are making a part 7-9 of a franchise. All they had to do was make great films and no one would have cared if there were echoes of the PT woven into the storylines.

 

Yeah, I mean you can't have an hour of the movie being an examination of this kind of stuff. Johnson went so far with it, which was great, I would have liked to have scene maybe 1 level further. Just one more 2 or 3 minute scene of Luke and Rey where Luke mentions some of the failings of the Jedi a bit more specific.

 

Ofcourse you can make the case, and I would, that he set the pins up for it and IX shoulda knocked them down. As I've said here before I liked the idea that in order to maintain true balance a Jedi ahd to master both sides of the force to prevent the light and dark from fighting each other (Colin Treverow liked that idea too). BUt there were other ways you could accomplish something similar with other flawed aspects of the Jedi coming into play. 



#30
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Totally agree. Luke has become Barris Offee and Ahsoka realizing how flawed the Jedi were. I hated that TROS walked that back. And in such cheesy ways too.

#31
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Lucas has said there's no "gray Jedi."

That said, I do think his message is that the Jedi were flawed in forbidding connections.

Yoda straight up tells Luke to sacrifice his friends, and that if he even flirts with the dark side, he's doomed to fall. Luke proves him wrong.

TLJ should have had Luke feeling as though HIS approach had failed.
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#32
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The whole concept of gray Jedi or mastering both is stupid. And Im using the tamest language possible.

Force = Good
Dark side = evil

In order to bring balance someone has to be good AND evil? Thats worse than anything JJ has ever done in anything hes been involved with. That makes midichlorians seem like the greatest idea ever. Thats just nonsense.
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#33
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There's a great video of Freddie Prinze Jr going on a rant about this I will find when I'm not on my phone. He runs down what Dave Filoni told him about the Jedi, as told by Lucas. But yeah-- the gist is that the light side is the TRUE side of the force in its natural state, and the dark side is a perversion of it, not the opposite.



#34
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Lucas has said there's no "gray Jedi."

That said, I do think his message is that the Jedi were flawed in forbidding connections.

Yoda straight up tells Luke to sacrifice his friends, and that if he even flirts with the dark side, he's doomed to fall. Luke proves him wrong.

TLJ should have had Luke feeling as though HIS approach had failed.

Well I think if you want to change perspective and give different answers than the OT gave then obviously you are going to be doing things outside of what George believed. If you want to just take the Force and put what George said of it and set it in amber and place it on your shelf then thats fine. Then there is not real point in making new movies. Personally I think to say we are going to take this wonderful, magical thing that George created all those years ago and question and challenge it and come up with new thoughts on it is the best way of honoring it and the best proof of just how great it is. I mean most great religions of the world have a myriad of different interpretations within them. The fact that The Force can also have different interpretations is just proof of how great it is.

 

Anyway you guys took the least important part of my post. I even said in the post that was ONE way I thought you could go about what I was saying. The main thing is to take some idea(s) from the PT and OT and challenge them and change them and give different answers in the ST. The idea of mastering both sides of the Force was just an example. Even saying that Im not saying I want to see Rey be some kind of anti hero. Its more about how the Jedi saying basic human emotions like anger or fear are the path to evil is just wrong. If I were ever hired by Lucasfilm to make a movie I'd have to hone the idea more and it would be more along the lines that the Jedi were wrong about what lead to the dark side and that its ok to be afraid or angry. 

 

What can be good about a board like this is that honestly Jawa and Tanks post kinda did maybe make me rethink what I was saying about mastering both sides and realize that perhaps that is not exactly what I'd want. But I do think tearing up the Jedi way and then improving/fixing it in the ST was the way to go. 



#35
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This is how I rationalize it all: Gray jedi are for video games and EU mediums.    Going by the movies alone, there is only light side (good, Jedi) and dark side (evil, sith or other dark side users).  I like gray jedi, particularly in video games because you are allowed to use dark side abilities.  But as far as Star Wars movies and they way they are simplistically written, gray jedi are sort of pointless.  Ditto on Dark Jedi, which are just evil jedi with almost no difference from Sith.  A chaotic neutral jedi does not really translate well to film without writing more complex than what has been presented, especially under JJ Abrams. 



#36
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I don't have any philosophical stake in this Gray Jedi debate, but I don't see why there absolutely can't be a movie that goes there. If Wolverine can work as a character, why can't someone write a good Gray Jedi movie?

#37
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They touched on it with that Bendu thing on Rebels. I think that's about as far as they should take it and even that was questionable. 

 

Stick with Lucas, it should be simply light vs dark, good vs evil. I'm as much of a fan of grey Jedi as I am force resistant species. 



#38
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I don't have any philosophical stake in this Gray Jedi debate, but I don't see why there absolutely can't be a movie that goes there. If Wolverine can work as a character, why can't someone write a good Gray Jedi movie?

It totally can in my view, with the correct writing. I'm just saying the way Star Wars movies are written, especially under JJ Abrams, it doesn't seem to me that it can work.  Star Wars movies, especially under JJ, don't have the time or writing to do a Gray Jedi storyline justice.  Lucas was never really concerned with anything other than Jedi VS Sith. JJ Abrams doesn't even care about details, just explosions.  Film wise, I suppose the closest we got was Luke from TLJ, but even then, he wasn't gray, just a jedi master who gave up for a time.



#39
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I don't have any philosophical stake in this Gray Jedi debate, but I don't see why there absolutely can't be a movie that goes there. If Wolverine can work as a character, why can't someone write a good Gray Jedi movie?


Because SW is mythic story-telling, and generally speaking, shades of gray isnt a thing in that type of story-telling. You start breaking tonal rules and you lose sight of things.

Not to say they can't-- Force Unleashed, Rebels, and Rouge One all went there to some extent, so it can certainly work... it's just a slippery slope.

#40
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I don't have any philosophical stake in this Gray Jedi debate, but I don't see why there absolutely can't be a movie that goes there. If Wolverine can work as a character, why can't someone write a good Gray Jedi movie?

It totally can in my view, with the correct writing. I'm just saying the way Star Wars movies are written, especially under JJ Abrams, it doesn't seem to me that it can work.  Star Wars movies, especially under JJ, don't have the time or writing to do a Gray Jedi storyline justice.  Lucas was never really concerned with anything other than Jedi VS Sith. JJ Abrams doesn't even care about details, just explosions.  Film wise, I suppose the closest we got was Luke from TLJ, but even then, he wasn't gray, just a jedi master who gave up for a time.

 

Although Luke does say "powerful light, powerful darkness...balance". Which flies in the face of Lucas' idea that darkness is just a perversion of the Force and that balance exists when there is no dark side. 

 

Also, as I've said I don't way Rey to be some badass anti hero. Im more saying the whole Jedi perception of the light and dark is wrong. Its not about Rey mastering the dark side to be half evil, its about mastering the things the Jedi considered to be the dark side or to lead to the darkside to lead to an ultimate good and balance. 



#41
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 I was going to create a new thread but I think I may as well just continue here.

 

I saw Filoni said something the other day about the 3 way dual at the end of TPM. Basically saying there is an extra weight to it because Qui Gon was the only Jedi who could have properly trained Anakin. Now for certain the fact that Qui Gon isn't in perfect lock step with the Jedi is present in the movie but to make the jump that he was the only Jedi, and he knew he was the only one he could, you have to make a pretty big assumption on your own part. 

 

Ofcourse I think this is a pretty cool idea and kinda wish it would have been more obvious in the movie. You could do it without really even adding a scene, just change one or two existing scenes. Instead of the Council refusing Anakin's training have them be like "oh yeah this kid is the Chosen One, thanks for bringing him to us. We got it"  and then Qui Gon refuse, insisting he train Anakin himself. Then later have one scene where he and Obi Wan talk and Qui Gon explains the flaws in the Jedi thinking that he knows would fail Anakin and how he, and he alone, can train him correctly. You could possibly take it one step further with Sidious maybe even mentioning to Maul that Qui Gon must be killed.

 

I think this plays into the whole shades of gray idea. I mean if the Jedi are inherently good and good intentioned but their flaws lead directly to failing the Chosen One and having him become evil that is a shade of gray right there.

 

Also going forward into the PT the fact that Dooku was Qui Gon's master could have played into this idea. Have Dooku say to Obi Wan "hey Qui Gon knew the Jedi were messed up, I knew too. Eventually it got the point I had to leave." This is somewhat hinted at but is far from front and center.

 

Even as a PT fan the fact that this idea that Qui Gon's death is so momentuous and that had he lived Anakin's fall would have been prevented is kinda not really put out there is frustrating. Many fans, including me, have issues that Anakin is a child, that Qui Gon takes time away from Obi Wan would have been alleviated by this. Qui Gons role and importance would have been more obvious.

 

According to Filoni these are ideas Lucas had when making the PT, why didn't he actually, ya know put it in the movie?



#42
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I brought this up in the Mando thread... or maybe it was here-- but that was the Filoni talk I was referring to when I was talking about duty/love.



#43
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I don't have any philosophical stake in this Gray Jedi debate, but I don't see why there absolutely can't be a movie that goes there. If Wolverine can work as a character, why can't someone write a good Gray Jedi movie?

It totally can in my view, with the correct writing. I'm just saying the way Star Wars movies are written, especially under JJ Abrams, it doesn't seem to me that it can work.  Star Wars movies, especially under JJ, don't have the time or writing to do a Gray Jedi storyline justice.  Lucas was never really concerned with anything other than Jedi VS Sith. JJ Abrams doesn't even care about details, just explosions.  Film wise, I suppose the closest we got was Luke from TLJ, but even then, he wasn't gray, just a jedi master who gave up for a time.

 

Although Luke does say "powerful light, powerful darkness...balance". Which flies in the face of Lucas' idea that darkness is just a perversion of the Force and that balance exists when there is no dark side. 

 

Also, as I've said I don't way Rey to be some badass anti hero. Im more saying the whole Jedi perception of the light and dark is wrong. Its not about Rey mastering the dark side to be half evil, its about mastering the things the Jedi considered to be the dark side or to lead to the darkside to lead to an ultimate good and balance. 

 

  I think that Lucas' rule applies to his films for sure. I think the ST films were trying to stay within the same beats as the OT and PT, so they didn't try to put the gray jedi concept in their films either. When Star Wars first came out in 1977, most films simply had a good vs evil, with only a few exceptions examining shades of gray.   Now, it is fashionable to have shades of gray, and in fact, its rare there is a pure good vs evil story.  Like I said earlier, gray jedi was originally an outgrowth of EU and Star Wars games, not Lucas.   People have been trying to shoehorn the concept of gray jedi  into star wars shows or new EU, ever since.  

 

I am not saying it can't be done.  All I am saying is in the films so far, you really don't have gray jedi, and going back to my first post, I rationalize that by the films and EU and games simply having different rules.

 

Also, it would like to point out that the vast majority of Star Wars that references gray jedi,  is mostly old EU and old Star Wars games that have been decanonized.



#44
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I'm all for nuanced exploration of differing approaches to the understanding and application of the force. Jedi, Sith, "grey Jedi", (insert new force religion/philosophy here). It would certainly make for a better more engaging viewing if it was done well. Trouble is cinema is not the storytelling format that can portray this nuance, particularly these days where studios only have the balls to put out mindless superhero films because they make bank and everything else is too much of a risk.

I think all of the things Choc brings up are valid and to dump on those ideas as being stupid is a blinkered knee jerk reaction. Sure, if someone like JJ or any major director was given a greenlight to go in such directions in the SW cinematic universe it would wind up being a cluster ****. You only have to look at the ST to see the risk aversion on the behalf of Disney and how they would choke on any interesting concept and manage to make it into a hot mess.
But in longer format of storytelling like a series? Such themes could work very well, just as they already have in games.

Unfortunately Hollywood cinema has become the worst way to try and tell a compelling story to a large audience, it seems. Given the widespread risk aversion of studios.

Edited by Odine, 12 May 2020 - 04:31 PM.

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#45
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I'm all for nuanced exploration of differing approaches to the understanding and application of the force. Jedi, Sith, "grey Jedi", (insert new force religion/philosophy here). It would certainly make for a better more engaging viewing if it was done well. Trouble is cinema is not the storytelling format that can portray this nuance, particularly these days where studios only have the balls to put out mindless superhero films because they make bank and everything else is too much of a risk.

I think all of the things Choc brings up are valid and to dump on those ideas as being stupid is a blinkered knee jerk reaction. Sure, if someone like JJ or any major director was given a greenlight to go in such directions in the SW cinematic universe it would wind up being a cluster ****. You only have to look at the ST to see the risk aversion on the behalf of Disney and how they would choke on any interesting concept and manage to make it into a hot mess.
But in longer format of storytelling like a series? Such themes could work very well, just as they already have in games.

Unfortunately Hollywood cinema has become the worst way to try and tell a compelling story to a large audience, it seems. Given the widespread risk aversion of studios.

I think it can be done in a movie, it doesn;t take that much. Johnson really began the process in TLJ when Luke talks about powerful light and powerful dark being balance. Then later Snoke talks about how darkness rises and light to meet it. The movies always operate on multiple levels, ranging from people who will see the movie one or twice for the action and fun up to people like us who will post on a message board regularly for 20 years. You dont need to spend a ton of time in the movie to accomplish these things. A couple scenes will do it. 

 

For instance lets say for arguments sake we are gonna have the whole "master both sides of the Force" thing in IX. Personally I'd tie it into Kylos fall. Have one scene were Luke tells Rey that he spent alot of time meditating on balance and he decided the only way to end the cycle of the light and dark fighting was to encompass it inside one person. He thought his nephew with the mighty Skywalker blood was the one do it. Then he just explains how he began to encourage some of Bens anger in hopes of doing this but it completely backfired on him. Then end the scene with him telling Rey he still believes that is the only way for lasting balance but there is great risk in the attempt. Rey says she wants to try.

 

Then one training scene with Rey and Luke where she loses control and some trees or rocks or whatever blow up in her anger. She cant continue with the lesson because of some emergency she has to run off to attend to. So she is going off for the final battle with this anger/hate in her she hasn't managed to control or master. 

 

Then in the final fight with Kylo she defeats him and stands over him in a fit of anger, she looks possessed of rage. But before she kills the now defenseless Kylo she calms down, she learns to master the darkness, not succumb to it. 

 

Thats all it would it take. A couple scenes. Now that description may be a bit too close to Luke throwing his saber away in ROTJ and probably would be some of change to it just to seperate it a bit from that. But I think my point stands that in order to put the idea out there of mastering both sides of the Force, or any other idea along these lines, it doesn't take all that much to do it. 



#46
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Then one training scene with Rey and Luke where she loses control and some trees or rocks or whatever blow up in her anger. 

Or she emits Force lightning that kills one of her close friends (or so she thought) and which, up this point, had only been seen on screen by a villain.

#47
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Then one training scene with Rey and Luke where she loses control and some trees or rocks or whatever blow up in her anger. 

Or she emits Force lightning that kills one of her close friends (or so she thought) and which, up this point, had only been seen on screen by a villain.

 

Well yeah, I mean that scene woulda worked if they hadn't pulled the rug out on it.

 

But the bigger point, I think, is that you don't need a ton of screen time to set something like this up. One scene where its put out there, one scene where the characters struggles with it and then a scene where they overcome. That's all you need. 



#48
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The only way I could find Filonis full telling of the story of Star Wars was in a collage someone posted online.

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#49
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The only problem I have with what Filoni is saying is that none of it happens in the movie. There is nothing in TPM that  at all tells us what the differences of opinion are between Qui Gon and the Jedi Council. There are obviously differences of opinion but to say they have to do with families and connections is just complete conjecture. Nothing in the movie suggests that. Then the idea that Qui Gon knew he was the only one who could train Anakin? Not even remotely in the movie. In fact when you watch the scene where the Council says Anakin will not be trained and Qui Gon offers to train him he says "I will train him then." This is clearly a pivot by him when they told him they would not train him. It wasn't his plan going in, he puts forth the idea of training Anakin himself only after the Council refuses to train him. This isn;t someone who had been dead set on training the boy because he knew he was the only one who could do it.

 

Filoni clearly loves Star Wars and I really like the ideas he puts out there here. In fact I like them so much I wish they would have been in the movie. But the fact is they are not. 



#50
Filthy Jawa

Filthy Jawa

    Bring back Mandard!

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I may have to watch it again, but I'm pretty sure Filoni said this was what George told him. So if it doesn't make sense, blame it on George.

In fact, I think that pretty much goes for everything in Star Wars.

Filoni seems to walk this line where he acts like a true disciple of George, but I'm not so sure he really is. He says things like he has never thought of Star Wars as "his", he's just a custodian of George's vision, but I always have this suspicion that it's just him playing politics. He doesn't want to seem like he's taking over and doing a better job of it than George....but he is and I think he knows it. I think his inner circle knows he sees himself as the new George.



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