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Leia


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#1
The Choc

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Now that the dust has settled what does everyone think the proper way to handle Carries death in IX would have been? To start although I dislike the movie I don't fault them at all for the choice they made with Leia. It was a near impossible situation and I think their choice was more than justifiable. Plus the family seemed enthusiastic about it and that must have counted for something. As I see it the main possiblities were:

 

1-Leia dies between movies.

 

2-Leia survives but is for some unknown reason not involved in the action of the movie and is maybe in it very very sparingly using old footage.

 

3-Recasting, her character follows any path the filmmaker sees fit

 

4-Essentially what they chose which seems to be to work her into the movie as much as possible using existing footage and other trickery but without anything someone could consider an recasting.

 

 

Personally I think recasting was never really on the table. The only way possible was maybe if there was a personal friend of her who could carry it on. Someone close to her family that they would be happy to see take the part forward. That was the only way. Having said that, even that I don't think was really possible.

 

Her surviving but being out of the story I think would have been a poor choice and a disservice to the character.

 

What they actually did, and again Im not faulting, just kinda put them in a box. They had to work scenes  and storylines to fit in existing footage. I doubt we will ever know exactly how much of her role was close ot something that would have been imagined without having to fit it around unused footage as opposed to how much they really had to jigger the plot around that footage.

 

Lastly my choice would be to have her die between the movies. Just from a storytelling perspective it unencumbers them to do what they want. Plus it carries on some key plots from VIII anyone with Poe struggling to replace her, Rey having to find her own path. The "tribute" could have been meta in a way with the characters struggling to cope with her loss in the same way the franchise and fans are coping with it. 

 

As I said,  I dislike TROS but this thread isnt about that at all. Im not really criticizing their choice as far as Carrie/Leia go. It was an impossible situation. Just wondering now with perspective what do people think would have been the best way to do it. 



#2
Filthy Jawa

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No disrespect to her, but I don't really get this whole thing that she, or really any of the originals, HAD to be anything in these movies. Put 'em in there, fine for fan service and tying continuities together, but this should have focussed more on the new crew and a lot less on the old ones. They had their time.
People act like it would be some affront to the Star Wars gods if they had reduced her role. I don't get that - she died. Even if she hadn't, this movie should not have been about her just like TLJ shouldn't have been about Luke. I love the OT, but wallowing in nostalgia characters gets Star Wars nowhere.

That said, I also don't have a problem with how they did deal with it. It was probably the only impressive part of that movie.
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#3
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I think the way they wrote around existing footage of her was super smart and clever... that said, it never quite clicked. As near-perfect as the effects were, you could tell she just wasn't reacting to/with people in the scene. (TBH this is also a huge problem in the cut/paste green screen PT).

 

I think they should have done what they did-- but do a lot less of it.


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#4
The Choc

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I think the way they wrote around existing footage of her was super smart and clever... that said, it never quite clicked. As near-perfect as the effects were, you could tell she just wasn't reacting to/with people in the scene. (TBH this is also a huge problem in the cut/paste green screen PT).

 

I think they should have done what they did-- but do a lot less of it.

I agree with your first sentiment, it was impressive. However I just don't know how much it affected what they did. I really disliked the whole thing at the start of the movie where Rey is still trying to earn Lukes saber. I mean shes faced Kylo, she confronted Snoke, she helped save the Resistance on Crait. What the hell else does she have to do?  I mean Obi Wan just gave the saber to Luke. Plus the Force called to her to have her find the saber and then it flew into her hand on Starkiller Base. I just felt that whole idea was wrong and kinda played into the whole idea that these movies as a whole aren't worthy of the OT. I just wonder how much of that storyline was due to them being able to fit it into the existing footage of Leia. 

 

Having said that there simply was no perfect way to do it. Even if they had her die between the movies, which would probably give them the most freedom possible, still they are worked into a corner of having to deal with the fact that the character had died.



#5
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What might have worked was to have her die between films, but then use the existing footage of her for a hologram message or force-ghost.



#6
Kyrian

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I've always said they should have opened ROS with her funeral, and for the main characters to use it/her as inspiration, almost like a WWLD meme in the movie, and what ROS did with Luke and Leia at the end should have been the most we saw of her. It would have worked far better to see and really feel her legacy rather than working around existing footage to have weird stilted conversations where it's clear the actors are talking to someone who isn't reacting to what they've just said.


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#7
Zathras

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In retrospect, I personally think it would have been better for the 3-movie arc to have killed Leia either when she got sucked into space, or had Leia do the Holdo Maneuver in TLJ.



#8
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If she was truly integral to the story they should have recast. Maybe I'm callous, but I don't think another actress would have been disrespectful to Fisher.

#9
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Well really, Leia didn't do a whole lot anyway in the ST.  I know they were limited on what they could do with cut footage and all, but I just didn't buy the "Leia knows what she has to do," moment, where she saves Kylo by taking a nap.  



#10
The Choc

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In retrospect, I personally think it would have been better for the 3-movie arc to have killed Leia either when she got sucked into space, or had Leia do the Holdo Maneuver in TLJ.

I think they felt that to edit up her performance posthumously would have been disrespectful. 


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#11
Filthy Jawa

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I suppose the story thinking was that Leia had to save Kylo. Han tried and failed. They probably felt there had to be this poetic connection to Luke never believing Vader was completely evil. She had to mirror that and save her son.
So if you kill her between movies, you lose the closing of that loop.

#12
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I suppose the story thinking was that Leia had to save Kylo. Han tried and failed. They probably felt there had to be this poetic connection to Luke never believing Vader was completely evil. She had to mirror that and save her son.
So if you kill her between movies, you lose the closing of that loop.

Kylo never should have been redeemed anyway. Was one of their big mistakes. 


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#13
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When my partner finally watched it (made her watch it on Star Wars Day), she said it felt like someone's fan fiction and that there were so many problems, and she kept asking questions to which I had no answers. One thing she did like tho was that Kylo became Ben again, and she said she liked Ben and was sad that he died.



#14
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In retrospect, I personally think it would have been better for the 3-movie arc to have killed Leia either when she got sucked into space, or had Leia do the Holdo Maneuver in TLJ.

I think they felt that to edit up her performance posthumously would have been disrespectful. 

 

That is true. Arguably also true for her appearance in TROS, too.   



#15
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Start of movie:

 

Rey, Finn, Poe are on a planet awaiting the arrival of a ship with Leia on board back from a diplomatic mission; as it approaches the landing spot the ship suddenly explodes. Our heroes look on in shock.

 

[Fade Out]

 

At the other end of space Kyle Ren feels a disturbance in the Force. Suddenly the force ghost of Luke shows up screaming at Kylo "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!?" But Kylo is confussed, both about what happened and about his feelings. He receives a holo-message from Hux stating his spies have managed to eliminate the threat of Leia Organa. Hux signs off. Kylo goes bezerk and thrashes his room with his lightsabre as Force Ghost Luke dissappears. Kylo destroys his prized possession: Vader's mask.

 

[Fade Out]

 

Our heroes are mourning Leia when Luke appears to Rey. Rey blames both Luke, for him not being here anymore; and Kylo, the mastermind in her mind, for what happened to Kylo. Luke explains to her he doesnt believe Kylo was behind it. Rey is filled with rage and says she will get revenge for Rey. But Luke explains her revenge isn't the Jedi way. Luke feels that the First Order have just made a fatal mistake which will come back to hunt them soon.

 

[Fade Out]



#16
The Choc

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When my partner finally watched it (made her watch it on Star Wars Day), she said it felt like someone's fan fiction and that there were so many problems, and she kept asking questions to which I had no answers. One thing she did like tho was that Kylo became Ben again, and she said she liked Ben and was sad that he died.

I think the argument between Kylo being redeemed or not is really emblematic of the divide amongst fans and really what Star Wars is and should be going forward.

 

The thought process that Kylo should be redeemed is basically "one of the main themes of Star Wars if not THE main theme of Star Wars is redemption." Which is true. So people think that if Kylo isn't redeemed that it flies in the face of Star Wars. That in a way it negates the OT and is contrary to what Star Wars is.

 

I understand the thought, I just disagree. For me Star Wars is an epic story and a fable with themes and ideas, in the OT one of those is that its never too late to try to make amends for wrong doings. It;'s a great, worthy lesson. However Star Wars is, for me, about more than any single theme and idea. Its a vessel for fables that can tell many lessons, have many themes. For me the real cardinal sin of TROS is making Rey a Palpatine, thus totally negating the theme that anyone can be a hero and do great things. 

 

Redeeming Kylo is another mistake, although not as big as the mistake made with Rey. We've already been taught the redemption lesson. We don't need it again. How about the lesson that actions have consequences? That you can't live a life of evil and then essentially have a death bed confession and everything is cool. That life of evil matters.

 

This really the heart of the issue with TROS. JJ made the story insular. He had Reys power com from within the story. He brought back the villain and made it all about defeating him. He basically reiterated themes of the OT.

 

They should have expanded the story out, rather than essentially building a box around the story and insulating it.

 

As I said, I understand the though that Star Wars has its own main themes and lessons and that those themes and ideas should be ever present through the story. I just think it gives Star Wars nowhere to go.

 

Now maybe Disney and JJ thought "this is the end of the Skywalker Saga, these 9 movies are one story so we have to make the themes consistent. Then when this is over and they do more movies outside of the main Skywalker Saga they can tell stories centering on new themes and ideas.I suppose thats a fair way to think, I just disagree. 



#17
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Okay, but you seem to be contradicting yourself somewhat. When TLJ came out, you defended it repeatedly such that I think we can all cite you verbatim. Everything went exactly as you expected, everything happened just as it was set up in TFA, you said.
If Kylo's redemption trajectory wasn't set up from the start, what was the point of all that stuff about him feeling the pull toward the light? A conflicted bad guy, who then makes conscious decisions to go darker (kill his father) and darker (kill his master to take over) just so he can.... stay dark in the end? His arc was obviously always to be redeemed. I hate to defend TROS, but they got that part right. I could do without the kiss, but the character arc was right given how the first two chapters had gone.

#18
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Star Wars already had a redemption arc. It wouldve been nice to not have a retread. Sometimes people are tempted to do the right thing but consciously choose to do the wrong thing.
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#19
The Choc

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Okay, but you seem to be contradicting yourself somewhat. When TLJ came out, you defended it repeatedly such that I think we can all cite you verbatim. Everything went exactly as you expected, everything happened just as it was set up in TFA, you said.
If Kylo's redemption trajectory wasn't set up from the start, what was the point of all that stuff about him feeling the pull toward the light? A conflicted bad guy, who then makes conscious decisions to go darker (kill his father) and darker (kill his master to take over) just so he can.... stay dark in the end? His arc was obviously always to be redeemed. I hate to defend TROS, but they got that part right. I could do without the kiss, but the character arc was right given how the first two chapters had gone.

 

The point is he is conflicted but eventually turns all the way dark. That he had chance after chance to turn back to good but in the end it was too late. That's what I took from it. That when Rey closed the Falcon door on him at the end of TLJ that was the end of his chance. The reason you set it up as conflicted is to make it somewhat heartbreaking when he ultimately cannot turn back to good. If he is just completely evil at the start and throughout then he is just another vilain. When you show glimpses of what could have been, the good he was possibly capable of, it is sad when he ultimately remains evil. 


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#20
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Star Wars already had a redemption arc. It wouldve been nice to not have a retread. Sometimes people are tempted to do the right thing but consciously choose to do the wrong thing.

 

 

The OT was Luke's hero's journey which was arced with Vader's redemption.

 

The PT (in theory) was the same hero's journey, but in this case the hero fails. This is overlaid with the concept of family vs duty.

 

Both are the same basic ideas, you have the hero on a mythic quest and they are constantly challenged by the trauma brought on by their unresolved family issues, and in both cases, love wins out. Luke loses his foster parents and can't get past loving his father despite him being evil, and that love brings Vader back.

 

With Anakin, he has no father (shut up) and he loses his mother. Obi-Wan isn't a father figure, he's more of a brother or mentor, he tries to find love with Padme, but it is in conflict with what the Jedi practice, it he self destructs as a result.

 

I feel like the ST should have basically done the same thing, present some version of the hero's journey (because that is core SW), while finding balance with love/family. To that, I think it is successful. That said, it wasn't a very fresh approach. It was all stuff we had seen-- an orphan looking for a family, etc. I think that the one unique way to play these themes was to have Luke detached from the Jedi, having lost his faith-- and then rediscovers it... but of course, that is what pissed off people the most.

 

I think they could have found original ways to play with these common themes without retreading. They were close, but not close enough.

 

As for Kylo-- there was never any doubt he'd be redeemed for me. You couldn't have the only descendent of the OT 3 end evil. I always assumed it would be just like Vader, evil, comes back, but has done too many bad things for the story to realistically let him live. The second they decided to have Leia and Han's kid be evil, there was only one way they could go.

 

Crazy enough, I can't actually recall now-- when the characters were first announced did we know that Kylo was a Solo/Skywalker, or was that a spoiler that came along later?



#21
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Star Wars already had a redemption arc. It wouldve been nice to not have a retread. Sometimes people are tempted to do the right thing but consciously choose to do the wrong thing.

 

 

The OT was Luke's hero's journey which was arced with Vader's redemption.

 

The PT (in theory) was the same hero's journey, but in this case the hero fails. This is overlaid with the concept of family vs duty.

 

Both are the same basic ideas, you have the hero on a mythic quest and they are constantly challenged by the trauma brought on by their unresolved family issues, and in both cases, love wins out. Luke loses his foster parents and can't get past loving his father despite him being evil, and that love brings Vader back.

 

With Anakin, he has no father (shut up) and he loses his mother. Obi-Wan isn't a father figure, he's more of a brother or mentor, he tries to find love with Padme, but it is in conflict with what the Jedi practice, it he self destructs as a result.

 

I feel like the ST should have basically done the same thing, present some version of the hero's journey (because that is core SW), while finding balance with love/family. To that, I think it is successful. That said, it wasn't a very fresh approach. It was all stuff we had seen-- an orphan looking for a family, etc. I think that the one unique way to play these themes was to have Luke detached from the Jedi, having lost his faith-- and then rediscovers it... but of course, that is what pissed off people the most.

 

I think they could have found original ways to play with these common themes without retreading. They were close, but not close enough.

 

As for Kylo-- there was never any doubt he'd be redeemed for me. You couldn't have the only descendent of the OT 3 end evil. I always assumed it would be just like Vader, evil, comes back, but has done too many bad things for the story to realistically let him live. The second they decided to have Leia and Han's kid be evil, there was only one way they could go.

 

Crazy enough, I can't actually recall now-- when the characters were first announced did we know that Kylo was a Solo/Skywalker, or was that a spoiler that came along later?

 

The fact that you are saying they HAD to redeem him is exactly why they shouldn't have. One of the reasons Vader being Lukes dad worked is because no one saw it coming. One of the reasons him turning back to good worked was because no one saw it coming. Surprising storytelling is one of the legacies of Star Wars. To really honor Star Wars past would be to do some stuff that would be unexpected by most fans. 

 

We did not know who he was until the movie. 



#22
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Personally I would have liked Kylo to show remorse but  not get "redemption" or any happiness or to disappear. Basically he is fighting Rey who is able to defeat him. She stands over him nearly overcome with anger and hate but she calms down and turns her saber off. Kylo then through the Force calls his saber to him and tries to stab Rey, but she is too quick and cuts Kylo through. He lays there in his dying moments with no hope of survival, tears well in his eyes and his dying words are "Im sorry". For Kylo Ren though there was no Emperor to kill, there was no son to save. There could be no redemption, only regret. 



#23
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The fact that you are saying they HAD to redeem him is exactly why they shouldn't have. One of the reasons Vader being Lukes dad worked is because no one saw it coming. One of the reasons him turning back to good worked was because no one saw it coming. Surprising storytelling is one of the legacies of Star Wars.


The problem is NOT doing something expected is less of a shock twist than doing something unexpected.
Having Kylo stay evil because savvy audience members expect him to be redeemed won't play as a twist.

#24
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The point is he is conflicted but eventually turns all the way dark. That he had chance after chance to turn back to good but in the end it was too late. That's what I took from it. That when Rey closed the Falcon door on him at the end of TLJ that was the end of his chance. The reason you set it up as conflicted is to make it somewhat heartbreaking when he ultimately cannot turn back to good. 


I'm not sure why you're saying what happens in Act 2 of 3 is what "ultimately" happens. I haven't studied English Lit., but I think a character's arc 2/3 of the way through is usually not where they end up.

#25
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In the first 2 ST movies, it seemed to me that Rey was the hero's journey, and Kylo was the inverse of Luke's story...the villain's journey.  Unlike Anakin having essentially the same arc as Luke, except he fails (being basically Uther Pendragon to Luke's Arthur), Kylo could have been the exact opposite of Luke.  I liked him resisting the pull to the light.  I would have liked seeing multiple opportunities for Kylo to be redeened, but refused to go to the light at every turn.   He should have went all the way evil, and it would  have been more interesting to me if Kylo helped destroy the Emperor, but for evil reasons, not for having been redeemed.  The way Kylo was redeemed was even dumber than how Anakin fell to the dark side.  





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