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The "I've seen The Rise of Skywalker" Thread


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Marvel is the example of what Lucasfilm was expected to be. Kevin Feige is the model for president of a Disney subsidiary. He's involved enough in everything that he knows what's happening and makes sure that the creatives are following the right beats for the overall story. That doesn't mean that Kennedy had to write the entire storyline, but she's the boss and knows that she's developing a single product. Lucasfilm is Star Wars, it's her only responsibility. It's her job to protect and grow the franchise, and she hasn't really done a great job of that. You can blame JJ and RJ, sure, but those aren't the only issues. Constantly hiring and firing directors was a major issue for the company and for the films. There seems to be no guiding vision for the company, and that comes down to leadership.

 

It'll be interesting to see if the rumor are correct and Feige gets moved to Disney at some point. I don't really buy it happening and I think it's just fans masturbating to the idea, but it'd be an easy way to see if he's really that good.

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Also, here's a list of the Jedi Voices cameos:   - Obi-Wan Kenobi (both Ewan McGregor and Alec Guinness): "These are your final steps, Rey. Rise and take them... Rey... Rise." – Anakin Skywalker: "Re

This is all I took away from that post.

In retrospect we shoulda let Jon Favreu have it!

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Feige is indeed a model for a president of a Disney subsidiary. No argument from me. But to be fair, before he was president of the Marvel and started the MCU, I think he had been involved with at least 10 (pre MCU of course) Marvel films, and he is definitely a fan of the source material. I think that is what made him so good at what he does. In Kennedy's defense, Star Wars as a film franchise had been dormant for about a decade, and once Disney bought LFL, they had to start from scratch. Maybe their mistake was not doing spin off films and web series first, to see what worked and what didn't, before diving into the ST?

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I don't think I ever said that the internal plot machinations of a movie don't matter. In fact I said "we can talk about that." Which meant they are certainly worthy of discussion and criticism. However I do feel that when a movie does have great ideas at it's core and sticks to those ideas and those ideas are interwoven and support each other throughout. When the movie has a visual style throughout. When a movie has and does these things it can become much more than the sum of its parts. TLJ, for me, is much more than "well the Throne Room scene works but the Casino scenes don't. Hyperspace tracking is a cool idea but ships jumping precisely in and out of the chase isn't." The movie is more than that, it rises above that. TLJ has convictions about what it's trying to be.

 

This movie is the opposite. This movie has basically no convictions. As has been pointed out by myself and others, it even walks back it's events. Between Chewie, Threepio and Kajimi. It's scared of itself. Because of this TROS becomes only the sum of it's parts. Its "this action scene was fun, that one wasn;t. This call back worked, this one didn't." Thats all this movie is for me, a bunch of stuff that happened. Some of which was cool, some of which wasn't.

 

Just the whole thought process behind the movie and where JJ and Terrios heads were is wrong to me. There are so many little things in this movie that are emplematic of this. For instance: at the end of the movie Finn is stranded on the Star Destroyer. Poe says he is going to rescue him, despite other pilots telling him he doesn't have time. Now Finn and Poe are best friends. They meet the very beginning of this trilogy. They meet before we meet Rey. Poe makes Finn his co general before this atttack. Their relationship is an important part of this trilogy. This should be Poe, saving his best friend at the climax of the trilogy. Instead we get "memba the Falcon?? memba how fast it is?? memba Lando??" Its dumb, flat out dumb. Its a small thing and if it was the only moment like this in the movie then it would be fine. It;s not though, there are so many moments like this where the main concern of the movie is a callback to the OT. We know the OT is great, it doesn;t need to be honored. Trust me, those movies have been honored enough.

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Disney has been pretty hands off-- the futzing has always been at the Lucasfilm level. Marvel, Lucasfilm, Pixar, The Muppets-- they all operate independently, and as long as they meet their deliverables schedule and things make a profit, Disney will stand hands off and just rule the merchandising/theme park/licensing angle for the money.

 

But after Solo didn't perform, and TLJ split fandom, rumors have it that Disney did interfere this time around-- with Bob Iger insisting on bringing JJ back of Rian Johnson once Treverrow was out. Not sure if that rumor is true, but it wouldn't shock me.

I guess we just have LFL to blame for mishandling the ST, then? I know a lot of people blame Kathleen Kennedy and all, but is that really fair, though? Being LFL president how much does she really have control of when it comes to story? Isn't her job just basically to ensure money is raised for the films, hire people who can do the jobs of writing, directing, and making sure stuff is done on time? Shouldn't the blame be more on JJ and RJ, (and in the case of TROS, Iger's, because they were the ones directly responsible for the stories? I mean on paper, it made sense to hire them I suppose, but if they fail, who is to blame? I mean if I do a poor job, is it my fault, or my boss's? Unless my boss's boss tells me to do something that fails, then is it my fault or the boss's boss?

Like I said a page or so back-- I hate attacking Kennedy cause she's the target that the worst fandom has to offer choose to bitch about most.

 

But hiring directors and writers and heading up creative is a major part of her job, if not the most important. Again, TLJ is the ONLY entry of the Disney era to not have some sort of major production issue and/or firing of a writer or director in-process. The common element between all these productions is her.

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Tank I think I agree, and maybe you have changed my mind a bit. And I am talking strictly the story. Not whether they made money because everyone knows each ST movie made more bank than the PT and the OT, at least one on one. On Paper, JJ and RJ made sense. JJ especially. He's made a bunch of money for a lot of people for at least 20 years. So I think in hind sight, while it made sense and seemed the right move, the buck does stop with Kennedy to a certain extent. She made a decision to hire those guys, and maybe at the time it made sense, but the execution didn't come off, at least story wise. Money wise, it probably still is the right move. I just don't think she deserves most of the blame people lay on her. When it comes to geek culture I think there is a certain amount of sexism going on there, when it comes to the Kennedy hate.

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Disney has been pretty hands off-- the futzing has always been at the Lucasfilm level. Marvel, Lucasfilm, Pixar, The Muppets-- they all operate independently, and as long as they meet their deliverables schedule and things make a profit, Disney will stand hands off and just rule the merchandising/theme park/licensing angle for the money.

 

But after Solo didn't perform, and TLJ split fandom, rumors have it that Disney did interfere this time around-- with Bob Iger insisting on bringing JJ back of Rian Johnson once Treverrow was out. Not sure if that rumor is true, but it wouldn't shock me.

I guess we just have LFL to blame for mishandling the ST, then? I know a lot of people blame Kathleen Kennedy and all, but is that really fair, though? Being LFL president how much does she really have control of when it comes to story? Isn't her job just basically to ensure money is raised for the films, hire people who can do the jobs of writing, directing, and making sure stuff is done on time? Shouldn't the blame be more on JJ and RJ, (and in the case of TROS, Iger's, because they were the ones directly responsible for the stories? I mean on paper, it made sense to hire them I suppose, but if they fail, who is to blame? I mean if I do a poor job, is it my fault, or my boss's? Unless my boss's boss tells me to do something that fails, then is it my fault or the boss's boss?

Like I said a page or so back-- I hate attacking Kennedy cause she's the target that the worst fandom has to offer choose to bitch about most.

 

But hiring directors and writers and heading up creative is a major part of her job, if not the most important. Again, TLJ is the ONLY entry of the Disney era to not have some sort of major production issue and/or firing of a writer or director in-process. The common element between all these productions is her.

 

This point is a crucial one. Johnson is the only person to make it through an entire production. And he wrote the movie alone and directed it. That's an incredibly amount of control. Disney and Lucasfilm liked what he was giving them enough that not only did he make it through the entire movie but they planned on giving him a whole different trilogy to make. This tells you all you need to know about what Disney thought about the quality of TLJ. This makes the walking back on that so obviously not a decision born of any real creative conviction but flat out a response to some angry fans. Which is sad.

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+ Kylo Ren is still to me how Anakin should have been portrayed in the PT. His redemption was inevitable, we knew that from the start-- even if Rian Johnson tried to steer us away from it. Much like Vader, you couldn't let the character live when they've caused so much destruction and Death.

Oddly enough, Kylo Ren was how Palpatine wanted Luke to be in ROTJ. He finally got the Skywalker he wanted in Ben Solo and he tossed him aside for the chance at turning Rey.

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But it is what happened in the movies lol

I just saw Matt Martin, evidently a member of the story group, say that the story of the Emperor creating Anakin was meant as a vision of Vader's fears that it was a possibility and that if it was meant as a factual representation of what happened he would have removed it. So....Palpatine didn't create Anakin :)

 

https://www.polygon.com/star-wars/2019/12/27/21035792/star-wars-palpatine-conception-children-rey-anakin-virgin-birth

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Yep. Something that Palpatine reiterates to Anakin over and over again is the idea that it is Anakin's "destiny" to join him as his sith apprentice. Surely Anakin knew of the prophecy and the council's belief that he is the chosen one. Palpatine's subtle hints that the sith are responsible for Anakin's creation was his way of creating doubt in Anakin's mind regarding his true purpose.

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Rey being Palpatine is a symptom of the sane thing as the Holdo line, or Finn no longer being with Rose, and a lot of tiny other details.

 

This script was written to service a reddit poll made by fanbabies.

 

Rey was always supposed to be more powerful than Luke. She was originally written as his daughter, so it made sense. That was lost an a rewrite when Abrams wanted a mystery. I think he still intended for her to be Luke's, as everything pointed in that direction.

 

Then Johnson made sure that wasn't the case. He took the spirit of the idea of the force balancing itself to the max degree and said plainly, Rey had the potential to eclipse Luke.

 

And fandom couldn't handle it. They call her a Mary Sue, they say it's a feminist agenda, etc etc.

 

Disney wanted fandom less polarized so the easiest way to explain her power in a way fans might accept is to say she inherited it from somebody. Obi-Wan was one choice, Palpatine was another.

 

Storytelling via fan desires is a terrible, terrible turn of events.

There's a whole school of thought, and I've seen a few YouTube videos asserting this, that it was the fan base that actually "ruined" Star Wars, if that can really be said to have happened. They're a threat to the SW universe that all the Sith Lords together could not have been.

 

George Lucas certainly comes in for criticism for the flaws in his films, the PT especially, and possibly even some elements of Return of the Jedi. But there's a big difference between that on the one hand and the sheer venomous vitriol that the "George Lucas raped my childhood" crowd constantly hurled in his direction. Not to mention at the actors who portrayed Jar Jar Binks and Anakin in TPM, the actress who played Rose Tico, Daisy Ridley and so on. Again, these films were not perfect, and there were times when the studios hid behind claims of "toxic" "racist" and "misogynist" fandom to deflect very real and legitimate criticisms of the films, and Disney and Lucasfilm did themselves no favors by not calling this out. Having said that, the anger and fury thrown at George Lucas by those fans who think Jar Jar Binks - a stupid character to be sure - absolutely ruined their childhood and ruined Star Wars forever - has been a very destructive force in the SW meta universe. The dark side of the force, as it were. And it hasn't let up since the disappointment of TLJ. Indeed, it's not only been renewed, but taken to new heights. While forgetting that Lucas himself once rather forthrightly asserted that these films are aimed at twelve year olds. Fan boyz took it way too seriously, and that's where the decline began. Apropos, given the story of Anakin Skywalker.

 

I have no doubt that fan anger drove Lucas to sell his franchise to Disney and turn its creative license over to them, though there were supposedly creative ideas that Lucas passed on to them, which I suppose weren't followed through on. So right there, however mad the "fandom menace" types might be at Disney for once again "raping their childhoods", these types also have only themselves to blame for what Disney has since done with the franchise. It's been far from perfect, and I guess I'd join the chorus of those who'd say that the big problem with this trilogy is its lack of narrative cohesiveness. But again, is fan toxicity actually feeding into the flaws we're seeing in the ST and in TROS in particular? I'd say yes.

 

J.J Abrams wanted to tell his own story in the SW universe, but for his opening effort he kept TFA fairly close to ANH in its narrative structure. An understandable move, all things considered. Best to play it safe and stick to what works after the backlash the prequils faced. It helped to reengage the fans, and promised a return to fundamentals in SW. Then Rian Johnson, who apparently also wanted to tell his own story in the SW universe, but one quite different from the one J.J Abrams wanted to tell, was largely given free reign to do so. This resulted in a very bitterly divided fandom and a renewal of of claims of raped childhoods, except Disney instead of Lucas. As well as some very real and legitimate criticisms of a film that seemed quite jarring - or should I say jar-jarring, given what was set up in TFA. So the franchise was given back to Abrams, who then had to pack whatever the rest of his vision was into an absolutely maddeningly rushed 2 and a half hours. As if Abrams doesn't have issues with film pacing as it is, and as if this isn't a growing problem in Hollywood already. Just give people 3 hours of blisteringly paced fan service. They'll buy it. That's the important thing, right?

 

Besides that, most of this film really struck me as an apology to the angry fans who stomped their feet and threatened to walk away from the franchise after TLJ. The revival of Palpatine as a clone hearkening back to the old Dark Empire saga, as a way to appease old EU fans etc. Did I dislike the Rise of Skywalker? No. I saw things I liked, including long overdue character development for the character of Rey, who being the central character of this 3 film arc, has been sadly neglected except in the display of power for power's sake up until now.

 

I don't think any of these last 3 films were bad in and of themselves, but taken together they don't tell a cohesive story the way the OT did, and the way that the PT did, for all its other flaws. I can't help but wonder how things could have been different had Lucas come to some sort of different understanding with Disney. Instead of completely relinquishing the franchise to them, entering into a kind of partnership comparable to what he had with other creative minds in the ESB era - Kershner, Brackett, Kasdan etc, while retaining control of the overarching story arc. But allowing for other creative minds to guide the process in those areas where we all know Lucas is weak - dialogue, scripting etc. He's strong in terms of overarching vision; the mythology of SW so to speak, and that's the real spirit of what makes SW work. SW lost that when Lucas became completely detached from what really was his lifetime work, and the work that can reasonably be called the greatest achievement in the history of cinema. At heart, I think the fanbabies who are going to scream and holler about this movie, about J.J Abrams and Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy ultimately have only themselves to blame.

 

Want to know what ruined Star Wars. Look in the mirror, f**king fan boys.

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Pretty much sums it all up.

 

Saw it again today and probably liked it less than the first session. But there were a few things I missed first time that put some events in better context - Threepio's memory wipe annoyed me in the first session because they walked it back but this time I heard Finn's comment about R2 keeping back ups and Threepio responding how R2 is unreliable. I actually kind of like that thread now as it just seems to be a long joke on how melodramatic Threepio is, considering how quickly R2 restores him.

 

I read elsewhere that the planet at the start of the movie is Mustafar and that Ren is looking for Vader's viewfinder. They really don't explain that/develop it enough - the whole Viewfinder McGuffin is really messy in this movie which, like the rest of it, is a shame because there was so much potential here.

 

Still some things I liked:

 

- The gothic horror vibe they gave Palpatine was well done. I'm not a fan of where they took the story but I think they did a really good job of portraying him as a sort of undead Sith demon kind of thing

- JJ can still shoot a lightsabre duel better than anyone. He has a perfect middle ground of the OT style and PT styles that works really well. The scenes here aren't as good as what we've seen but it's something I think he really gets

- The relationship between the trio - individually I have issues with each of their stories but I enjoyed it when the three of them were together

- Ben Solo, the little we saw of him, some nice touches there with the Harrison Ford inspirations

- I know a lot of people wanted them to avoid it but I'm glad he was redeemed at the end. I've changed my POV on this a bit. . .it was clear that Leia would have had a big part to play in this movie if it wasn't for Carrie passing, so the fact they were still able to incorporate her somehow into that thread was masterfully done considering what they had to work with.

 

Main Gripes without getting into nitty gritty:

 

- Rey as Palpatine's granddaughter. This one thing really brings down the movie a lot for me. I used to think the idea of Rey being Anakin reincarnated / new chosen one reborn was lame but throughout watching this kept thinking it would have been the better card to play.

- Rose being almost completely written out. She could have just taken over the Lando "granddaughter" role. Or was it daughter? Or was he just being sleazy?

- Lando is able to rally the biggest fleet of ships we've ever seen in Star Wars in a couple of hours yet it has taken Leia years to work up a dozen cruisers. The Resistance hardly looks in better shape since the last movie until Lando gets involved.

- It's a smaller one but hate to say it, RoTJ Special Edition showed a galaxy in celebration much better than this one. We get a random shot of Bespin, Jakku and Endor. I actually wonder if they forgot they put those shots in in Post Prod because it is so half assed. It's like they're about to show a bunch of planets from the saga then pull out because they couldn't be bothered.

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- Threepio's memory wipe annoyed me in the first session because they walked it back but this time I heard Finn's comment about R2 keeping back ups and Threepio responding how R2 is unreliable. I actually kind of like that thread now as it just seems to be a long joke on how melodramatic Threepio is, considering how quickly R2 restores him.

I caught Finn saying that so I wasn't really bothered at the end when R2 restored his memory. I was bothered that it was setup that way in the first place. As soon as Finn said it, I figured that's what would happen, which rendered his "death" meaningless. Like having seen Chewbacca flying with Lando in the trailer and therefore knowing he wasn't dead yet when Rey brought down the ship. These scenes had no impact knowing what was to come.

 

- It's a smaller one but hate to say it, RoTJ Special Edition showed a galaxy in celebration much better than this one. We get a random shot of Bespin, Jakku and Endor. I actually wonder if they forgot they put those shots in in Post Prod because it is so half assed. It's like they're about to show a bunch of planets from the saga then pull out because they couldn't be bothered.

I was confused by this. Why were Star Destroyers falling out of the sky in random places?

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Okay, sorry dude, but if you think you could tell JJ Abrams no we cant do that as a glorified lucasfilm intern, you are insane.

Obviously. Just tossing it out there. Sounds like Lucasfilm doesnt consider Palpatine to have manipulated Anakins birth.

 

Comic book writers are at least three levels below interns though, right? And I don't think this really answers anything other than they wouldn't let a comic book confirm it. If, say, Rian Johnson wanted it to be part of his trilogy, it'd be part of his trilogy. For the stuff that's lower than the films, it's hard to say exactly.

 

It seems to me like they just want to leave it an unanswered mystery for now. And ever since Filoni decided to shit all over the chosen one prophecy, I still think Palpatine creating Anakin is the best remaining option.

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What did Filoni do with the prophecy? I admittedly slept through most of Clone Wars so must have missed it.

 

 

I was confused by this. Why were Star Destroyers falling out of the sky in random places?

Same here, I don’t get why a Star Destroyer just casually hanging out in Jakku or why there would be a battle there etc

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Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?

 

Ah eff it, lets just lightspeed skip. Its not like the Tie Fighters can just follow is right? Oh wait.

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Want to know what ruined Star Wars. Look in the mirror, f**king fan boys.

100%

 

And in retrospect, I was 100% that fanboy on this very site from the day TPM came out.

 

Maybe, MAYBE, the only way it could have all turned out, was if Lucas stayed on as story/concept guy, and over-seeing EP and hired decent writers and directors to develop and creat his contact while he was still in charge. That's how ESB was made.

 

Had that been the case for both the PT and ST, maybe-- MAYBE fandom wouldn't have become split.

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I will not deny that fandom can be mean and spiteful, believes they have some kind of ownership over that of which they are fans, and worst of all can be self-consuming.

 

I will put forth if Star Wars sucks or was ruined, that is not of the fans. As much as fans (toxic or otherwise) like to believe they could write one, make one, act in one, whatever the job is, unless they literally did one or more of those things then they had no hand in what Star Wars was or became. A critic does not make a thing horrible, they could be ***holes about something being horrible however. Lastly, if any Star Wars was literally written by reddit poll, as has been suggested, then even that is not on the fans... who is the more foolish? The fool or the fool that follows him?

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The only thing that "killed" Star Wars for me was a lack of entertaining movies. I kept checking my watch during TLJ to see when it was going to end, and I had to watch Solo twice because I fell asleep.

 

But the OT is as good as ever, and nothing is going to change that.

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Want to know what ruined Star Wars. Look in the mirror, f**king fan boys.

100%

 

And in retrospect, I was 100% that fanboy on this very site from the day TPM came out.

 

Maybe, MAYBE, the only way it could have all turned out, was if Lucas stayed on as story/concept guy, and over-seeing EP and hired decent writers and directors to develop and creat his contact while he was still in charge. That's how ESB was made.

 

Had that been the case for both the PT and ST, maybe-- MAYBE fandom wouldn't have become split.

 

I doubt it. Lucas sold Star Wars because fanboys harassed him for the PT. Fandom was always split: Old fans VS new. Now Old fans VS new VS newer.

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After letting this sink in for a while, I think I finally came to a conclusion on my own feelings on all of this.

Each of these new movies in the sequel trilogy are great on their own. They've got gorgeous cinematography, solid acting, a great cast, are written well, and have all of the technicals heavily in their favor. Except they're fantastic stand-alone stories that make for a mess of a long narrative in the overall trilogy.

 

It sucks because in the last decade we've been trained to expect a cohesive long-running narrative in the Marvel movies. For whatever reason, Disney seems to have micromanaged this trilogy or have kept Kennedy on a short leash here and the series has suffered for it. I don't think it's as horrible as some of the Fandom Menace is trying to paint it up as, but it's so clear how many plot threads were left abandoned or changed halfway through.

 

I still love each of these individually, The Last Jedi most of all. It's just such a shame that the third part that could have redeemed the whole thing caved to toxic fanboys instead of sticking with both JJ and Rian's guns and made it such a mess. Disney's strength is clearly in these standalone stories set deeper in the universe like Rogue One or The Mandalorian, hopefully this will make them retreat safely into that territory in the future.

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I will not deny that fandom can be mean and spiteful, believes they have some kind of ownership over that of which they are fans, and worst of all can be self-consuming.

 

I will put forth if Star Wars sucks or was ruined, that is not of the fans. As much as fans (toxic or otherwise) like to believe they could write one, make one, act in one, whatever the job is, unless they literally did one or more of those things then they had no hand in what Star Wars was or became. A critic does not make a thing horrible, they could be ***holes about something being horrible however. Lastly, if any Star Wars was literally written by reddit poll, as has been suggested, then even that is not on the fans... who is the more foolish? The fool or the fool that follows him?

You're kidding, right? Much of the fandom is absolutely beyond toxic. Some of these ****heads literally chased Kelly Marie Tran off of social media and into therapy. Her basically disappearing into the scenery in Rise of Skywalker is totally Disney caving to those bottom dwellers.

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