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The "I've seen The Rise of Skywalker" Thread


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I'd say that the PT "ruined" the OT way more than the ST did. It changed the context of so many things and turned Vader into a man baby.

 

...but then TROS comes out and invalidates Luke's victory..

If I was going to compare 1-3 to 7 and 8, I would agree. 9 actually invalidates 1-6. No, correction, 9 invalidates 1-8. Palpatine is some immortal, all power god with the ability to create his own super fleet, so he literally didn't need do anything he did in any of those movies, and him pulling the strings invalidates everything we see from 7 and 8. The First Order was a big waste of time, and Kylo killing Snoke doesn't matter at all because Palpatine has his own Snoke farm and doesn't even care anymore because he can now openly be a Sith and take over the galaxy by force (pun intended).

 

I think that a way better way to draw the Skywalkers to a close would've been for Kylo to return from the dark just as he died (stealing from Jacen Solo's death where he was super evil and then returned to the light as his sister killed him). Ignore Palpatine and all of that, continue the story from TFA and TLJ and then just kill off all the Skywalkers. And since Rey has no identity, she still could've chosen her own name, but she could have chosen Solo, which would've been a great nod to Han and Leia, and also to Solo, where Han gets his name because he's alone.

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Also, here's a list of the Jedi Voices cameos:   - Obi-Wan Kenobi (both Ewan McGregor and Alec Guinness): "These are your final steps, Rey. Rise and take them... Rey... Rise." – Anakin Skywalker: "Re

This is all I took away from that post.

In retrospect we shoulda let Jon Favreu have it!

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...but then TROS comes out and invalidates Luke's victory..

No it doesn't. Luke's victory was saving his father and bringing him back to the light. That's not invalidated at all.

 

Vader "killed" the emperor and supposedly ended his rule.

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...but then TROS comes out and invalidates Luke's victory..

No it doesn't. Luke's victory was saving his father and bringing him back to the light. That's not invalidated at all.

 

Vader "killed" the emperor and supposedly ended his rule.

Shakey. And you know it.

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TFA invalidated ROTJ and EU.

TLJ invalidated Luke and TFA.

TROS invalidated Anakin's victory over the Emperor, TFA, TLJ, the PT, & OT.

Lucas invalidated the Clone Wars (the war itself), Boba Fett and Vader with PT.

R1 invalidated ANH.

Solo invalidated Han Solo.

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On the whole invalidating ROTJ thing: There are 2 different stories playing out at the end of that movie. First is Anakin's personal redemption via Luke. This is not undone at all by the ST or TROS. The other story is the defeat of the Emperor/Empire. This is partially undone by TFA and then is basically totally undone by TROS. Just how it is.

 

Now here is the thing, if you are going to sell me on TROS being the end of the story there has to be something more to it. Weve already seen what happens when the bad guy is killed and their stuff blown up. They just come back in a couple decades anyway. Whether you include the Emperor in this movie or not there has to be something more to the victory at the end of the ST because the very storyline of the ST shows that simply beating the bad guys in battle doesn't solve anything long term.

 

My idea and if the Trevorrow script is real's idea is that Rey has to master both the light and dark inside herself. Thus achieving real balance and ending the cycle of light rising to face darkness and vice versa. Some people don't like this idea and thats fine. But at least it is an idea that differs from simply blowing up the bad guys again. Ofcourse there are other ways this could have been achieved but at least the light/dark balance thing is one of them.

 

Thing is if they didn't bill this as the end of the story this wouldn't have been an issue either way. They could have just ended the conflicts present in the ST and called it a day and hopefully had a good movie. BUt when you say "no this is the logical climax of a 9 part story" you better put something in there that at least attempts to make it so. As it is I see no reason Palpatine couldn't come back again through those famous darkside pathways to many abilities some would consider to be unnatural.

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Agreed, though I wouldn't say Don Glover was a better Lando than Billy Dee Williams, but he was as good as him, in the same way Ewan McGregor is as good as Alec Guinness as Obi wan.

Glover played Lando the whole movie as the Lando from his very first scene on the landing platform on Bespin. Which is Lando's best scene and how he acts in that scene is what most people associate with Lando.

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...but then TROS comes out and invalidates Luke's victory..

No it doesn't. Luke's victory was saving his father and bringing him back to the light. That's not invalidated at all.

 

Vader "killed" the emperor and supposedly ended his rule.

Shakey. And you know it.

I mean, it's not that shakey. Luke did inadvertently bring down the emperor by saving his father who in turn kills the emperor. But Luke's journey was all primarily about his relationship with his father. His arc was complete when he saves his pops and brings Anakin back to the light. Anakins journey is complete when he defeats the emperor, or so we thought until the ST obviously. Luke's journey was never about saving the universe and killing the emperor, it was always far more intimate than that. At least that is how I always read it. Luke's victory is salvaging a relationship with his estranged and severely fucked up father and healing that wound for the both of them.

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Well, the Emperor was never brought down by Luke or Vader/Anakin, though. Thy merely delayed the Emperor. He was still ruling the First Order through Snoke as his meat puppet proxy alias. By TFA, the Emperor succeeds with Starkiller Base in destroying the New Republic. Maybe Luke solved his daddy issues, but that did nothing for the rest of the galaxy. Given what we have seen so far with the Mandalorian, defeating the Emperor and Empire in ROTJ really didn't change much of anything, in the galactic scheme of things. Life still sucked on the outer rim. We didn't see much of the new republic before it was blown to bits, but it has been established that Leia was not acting on the behalf of the New Republic, but essentially formed a small band called the Resistance to oppose the First Order, and failed to convince the New Republic to do anything. This implies to me, at least, that in the short 30 years of its existence, the New Republic learned nothing from the fall of the Old Republic and Palpatine seizing power, and fell back into the decadent state with a non-functional government that we saw in the Old Republic during the PT. Luke, Leia, and Anakin did not change a thing for the average person. This is what people mean by Luke's and Vader's efforts being nullified.

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This implies to me, at least, that in the short 30 years of its existence, the New Republic learned nothing from the fall of the Old Republic and Palpatine seizing power, and fell back into the decadent state with a non-functional government that we saw in the Old Republic during the PT. Luke, Leia, and Anakin did not change a thing for the average person. This is what people mean by Luke's and Vader's efforts being nullified.

I get this. But perhaps that's the whole point. 30 years of peace and relative prosperity is all one can hope for? People never really learn from history. Greed and bureaucracy always return like a weed and peace only lasts so long.

 

The first order existing doesn't diminish a thing about the OT. Brining back Sidious was a cheap move I'll grant you that, but he's the best designed and created villain of all time, next to Vader. I don't know why they didn't have him be the main bad from the beginning of the ST... He's too good NOT to use. And trying to create an iconic villain intentionally falls flat on its face. You can't intentionally capture lightening in a bottle. Just look at Snoke. Even his name sucks

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There's a distinct difference between the Empire and the First Order. The Emperor took control from inside, and slowly turned the Republic into an Empire, and was cheered when he did it. It's highly possible that the New Republic did enact protections against that type of thing. The First Order was an exterior threat that probably wasn't taken seriously, and the Republic was sick of war. I would imagine the Republic viewed the First Order the same way we view Iran. Sure, they might be dangerous, but they're still just a little speck compared to us.

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Ya'lls splitting hairs and by getting all nitty nerdy gritty with esoteric details. When ROTJ ended the good guys won, the Sith and The Empire were done.

 

As much as it pains me to admit it, the ST is guilty of everything I was ever mad at the EU for doing.

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Here is the fact: Once they decided to make more movies the whole idea of Star Wars as "a story" was out the window. Weve talked about this before, but its now a legend. Its like Robin Hood. You can have 100 Robin Hood stories but they don't need to match perfect or have anything to do with each other. The whole idea of a story group an canon is moronic. Tell stories that are set in that universe that can be united by theme and idea and who cares if it all fits because it never will anyway. Sure you can bring back OT characters and use them to help "sequels" but to try to make the ST finish the story of the PT and OT is moronic because those stories were finished in ROTJ.

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Here is the fact: Once they decided to make more movies the whole idea of Star Wars as "a story" was out the window. Weve talked about this before, but its now a legend. Its like Robin Hood. You can have 100 Robin Hood stories but they don't need to match perfect or have anything to do with each other. The whole idea of a story group an canon is moronic. Tell stories that are set in that universe that can be united by theme and idea and who cares if it all fits because it never will anyway. Sure you can bring back OT characters and use them to help "sequels" but to try to make the ST finish the story of the PT and OT is moronic because those stories were finished in ROTJ.

I couldn't agree with you more.

 

We're in the upsidedown.

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all nitty nerdy gritty with esoteric details.

I thought that was your jam tho

I think I have been burned one too many times. I can't seem to get really that mad over it any more.

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I don't buy this whole "invalidates" stuff. Or "raped my childhood" stuff for that matter.

If the OT was a fairytale where they all lived happily ever after, then I guess we could never have another Star Wars.

 

But yeah, I intensely dislike this shoehorned-in retcon that Palpatine was alive and pulling the strings all along. It's right next door to that "and then I woke up, it was all a dream" ending to the short story you wrote in sixth grade.

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I don't buy this whole "invalidates" stuff. Or "raped my childhood" stuff for that matter.

If the OT was a fairytale where they all lived happily ever after, then I guess we could never have another Star Wars.

 

But yeah, I intensely dislike this shoehorned-in retcon that Palpatine was alive and pulling the strings all along. It's right next door to that "and then I woke up, it was all a dream" ending to the short story you wrote in sixth grade.

I don't think it invalidates it automatically. However the idea that someone said, maybe you, that evil cannot totally be defeated and every generation has to deal with it is a great idea. Its a great way to just keep telling Star Wars stories. In fact this idea is brought up in TLJ by Snoke "darkness rises and light to meet it." That premise could have been very interesting to explore going forward, problem is that its not.

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I don't buy this whole "invalidates" stuff. Or "raped my childhood" stuff for that matter.

If the OT was a fairytale where they all lived happily ever after, then I guess we could never have another Star Wars.

 

But yeah, I intensely dislike this shoehorned-in retcon that Palpatine was alive and pulling the strings all along. It's right next door to that "and then I woke up, it was all a dream" ending to the short story you wrote in sixth grade.

I don't think it invalidates it automatically. However the idea that someone said, maybe you, that evil cannot totally be defeated and every generation has to deal with it is a great idea. Its a great way to just keep telling Star Wars stories. In fact this idea is brought up in TLJ by Snoke "darkness rises and light to meet it." That premise could have been very interesting to explore going forward, problem is that its not.

 

That idea was the correct one-- the idea evil could return was fine in and of itself. The dark side will always exist. When TFA came out, I was okay with Kyo Ren, because it sounded like The Knights of Ren were some new sect of dark-siders-- which would have been a cheat, but acceptable. Snoke was a lame Emperor stand-in, but the idea they were something else kinda sorta worked.

 

That was undone.

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