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The "I've seen The Rise of Skywalker" Thread
Posted 20 December 2019 - 06:00 PM
ANH: the main theme and/or throne room
ESB: imperial March
ROTJ: Luke/Leia theme or Ewok theme
TPM: duel of the fates
AOTC: across the stars
ROTS: battle of the heroes
All we got from the sequels is Reys theme. Whats it for TLJ or TROS?
- Tank +1 this
Posted 20 December 2019 - 06:47 PM
I don't mind debating the scores because we're debating levels of good to great. There is no suck in John Williams catalog.
Tracks from the OT are in cinematic score history. The opening theme, the Imperial March, Leia's Theme. There aren't many who would disagree that the PT has its fair share of Ted Turner Instant Classics. Duel of the Fates alone tops anything in the sequel trilogy. The score for Order 66 makes that whole scene work.
Posted 20 December 2019 - 08:09 PM
Just saw it a couple hours ago. Still digesting. Initial thoughts are that this is a decent if not a satisfying closing for the ST, maybe less so for the entire Skywalker saga. A lot of problems people here have cited are my problems as well. However, definitely much better than TLJ, maybe about equal to TFA. I'd say that the critics who are trashing it are wrong. It ties up most of the stories introduced in the last 2 films (your satisfaction with the explanations can vary), though it is definitely a JJ Abrams film in that it is pretty to look at, but thin on backstory, and you kind of have to turn off your brain to watch it. Excusable considering Carrie FIsher died and this really should have been one person's vision. Good use of Luke. Good use of Han (being imaginary). I expected more Leia footage the way LFL was talking about using cut footage, but clever how they blended her scenes in with living cast members. Kind of falls apart by the final act, with landing craft of horse-things, and the Emperor being way, way too powerful, and not knowing if he wants to kill Rey, or to have Rey kill him
Overall, I liked it, though. That said, the more I think about it, the more I may find issues, and I am not sure how it will hold up when it comes to multiple viewings. JJ films are good once or twice, but the more you see his stuff, the less you end up liking it. Oh, and I could swear I heard Kanaan Jarus and Ahsoka Tano at the end speaking to Rey. Tell me that doesn't mean Ahsoka is dead at this point.
- Odine +1 this
Posted 20 December 2019 - 08:41 PM
Posted 20 December 2019 - 08:46 PM
Im gonna give this another go over the weekend hopefully but for now the more I think of it the less I can think of anything I really liked rather than some very small, little moments.
Pretty much every important decision made in the movie I don't like. I don't like the Emperor being back. I don't like Kylo turning. I don't like Rey being a Palpatine.
But it does deeper than that, none of the action scenes really had any tension to them. I could more than forgive some of those decisions if some of the stuff inherently cool to Star Wars was good. I mean there wasn't even a good saber fight. And although I love TFA this movie had some of the same issues that are in that movie. In TFA neither of the large battles have any tension. At Maz's castle when the Resistance shows up they win with ease, in fact the First Order just retreats. During the Starkiller attack once Chewy blows the hole open Poe goes in there and destroys the base basically unmolested. The same thing applied here. The last battle is large in scale but it just kinda happened. There is no great moment of "will this work or not". It just happens.
Posted 20 December 2019 - 09:00 PM
Wouldn't she be like 80 or something? I've never watched a single Star Wars cartoon since Droids, but she's a prequel era character right? Why would you expect her to still be alive? I've seen this sentiment a lot so I'm just confused by it.
I didn't expect her to be alive, really, but then again I didn't think much about it either way and hearing her blindsided me. It is a confirmation of her death, which is worth mentioning, though. I just wanted to see if anyone else picked up on that and was thinking the same.
Posted 20 December 2019 - 09:47 PM
I actually really liked the idea of Rey trying to channel the former Jedi and I kinda wish it had been more of the plot than just set up in her first scene and then brought back at the end. When they first show Rey with the rocks i n the air and all that and she says how she is trying to reach out to the dead Jedi I thought "oh thats a cool idea." Then it more or less goes away until being brought back in the final scene.
There were a couple things like this in the movie, ideas I liked that I wish were more central to the movie. Another was the idea of storm troopers rebelling against the First Order. This was something that has been speculated about since TFA and was rumored to potentially be a part of VIII actually. Its a cool idea and I wish it was more central to this with perhaps with the trooper revolt actually being on screen after being inspired from a speech by Finn.
Posted 21 December 2019 - 12:45 AM
Posted 21 December 2019 - 07:16 AM
Could be that it was only ever a bit part or a cameo though. We'll find out eventually.
- zambingo +1 this
Posted 21 December 2019 - 11:37 AM
I actually like that they only used voices because that was all Rey taking out the Emperor. If they had force ghost armies, it would have been too much.
Oh, I agree with you. Abrams isn't known for his restraint, I was genuinely surprised he didn't go there.
Though seeing Mace and Ahsoka might have been cool...
Posted 21 December 2019 - 05:33 PM
Just got back.
I found much of it predictable, but not in an annoying way like TLJ.
* Threepio's death via memory wipe could have remained permanent, but I suspected it wouldn't. I was open for it to be, though.
* Chewie's death was a fake-out because we hadn't seen him fly the Falcon with Lando yet.
* Leia's inevitable death was handled gently and beautifully. I cried when Chewie mourned for her. It's the scene they should have had together in TFA.
* I saw an article the other day showing Harrison Ford at the premiere and figured he would show up in the film. Ford doesn't attend premieres for nothing.
* I saw Hux's turnaround a mile away the minute he said he wanted to kill them himself. Just sitting there going, "Yep, he's going to let them go for...reasons."
* Recognized John Williams and Denis Lawson (was bouncing in my chair then) in their cameos.
* Once again, Ian Mcdiarmid makes every actor around him look like an amateur.
* Lots of musical callbacks in this film, but I agree that there's no standout theme for this one.
* They didn't give Billy Dee much to do. That's probably for the best, but it was good to see at least one of the old guard still around.
Posted 21 December 2019 - 05:36 PM
Also, here's a list of the Jedi Voices cameos:
- Tank, Jacen123, zambingo and 2 others like this
Posted 22 December 2019 - 12:43 PM
A second viewing today and I enjoyed it much more. I still disagree with pretty much all of the major story decisions that were made and the general direction of the movie. Having said that they did a good job inside of these decisions I don't agree with. If that makes sense. It will never be a personal favorite Star Wars movie but overall its an easy thumbs up.
Posted 22 December 2019 - 04:12 PM
Well that was certainly a Star War!
I'm a mixed bag of feelings about it. I'm not disappointed or let down, but I certainly did just see a bunch of bull**** as well.
What I liked:
+ the sense of finality/duality/full circle-ness. It really did feel like the culmination of nine movies coming together
+ the "in between" moments where characters come to life (like Poe and Finn gaming with Chewie) this movie was full of them, and that reminds me of the OT. TLJ was completely devoid of these moments for the most part
+ Rey's journey. I like Rey, I've never had a problem with her, or her power-- and now her power level makes sense. I missed a little of the optimism and sweetness she had in TFA and TLJ, but I think that was intentional.
+ Han's cameo. That wasn't spoiled for me, and it was sweet. I'll give JJ credit for not putting him in the ghost shot at the end, cause you know he wanted to.
+ Kylo Ren is still to me how Anakin should have been portrayed in the PT. His redemption was inevitable, we knew that from the start-- even if Rian Johnson tried to steer us away from it. Much like Vader, you couldn't let the character live when they've caused so much destruction and Death.
+ Loved how the band was together for most of the movie. TLJ suffered from keeping them apart the whole time. Having them together makes them better characters.
+ Finn made so much more sense in this movie than in TLJ. I always thought he was a fun character, giving him confidence, an inkling of the Force-- all good. I love his face when he sat in the gunner's chair-- he's ended up in that position clueless a few times before, seeing him sit down and pull on the gloves Han-style was great. Similarly, Poe was back on track after seeming like a different character in TLJ.
+ I am shocked I am saying this, but I like the new little droid. If BB-8 is a faithful golden retriever, D-0 is like a cat. He rolls up to Rey, she reaches out to pet him, and he pulls back. "No thank you."
+ 3P0-- my least favorite character of the OT, pretty much pointless and tacked on to the PT, and shrill and annoying in the ST, I finally felt like he was made good use of in this movie and was actually kind of fun.
What was just okay:
+ The scavenger hunt plot. Let's be honest, Star Wars plots are always pretty flimsy and hung on the framework of a chase. So it wasn't a shock, but it was also kind of low stakes for the finale movie.
+ Leia's inclusion. It was really clever to write around what lines they had for her to say, and she was integrated pretty seamlessly (albeit a bit stiff, but so was DeNiro in The Irishman's de-aging scenes and he's still living), but it never quite felt like she was actually to talking TO the people she was sharing the screen with. I mean, she wasn't, and they did the best they could, but it never felt 100% on for me. Though I did love that quick flashback image of OT era Luke and Leia training together. I want THAT movie.
+ Lando. Sorry-- he was too old, stiff and mumbly for me to really love. I think Donald Glover stole the part.
+ All the new characters-- just interesting enough to like, but not likeable enough to really get into. And it seemed like there was one too many of them I was supposed to care about. ANd not to be a dick, I know JJ puts Greg Gruenberg in all his movies, but how huge is he going to get and we're supposed to buy he can fit in an X-Wing cockpit... prob why he crashed... SON OF PORKINS.
+ New Force powers... I mean... I get why fanbabies won't like it. I don't mind too much. I've always said that people use what Luke could do as a benchmark, and the ST has set Rey up to more powerful from the start. New powers are fine, rediscovery of old powers is fine too. To be fair, every SW movie has added a power to what Jedi can do. It just seemed like in this movie they were all invented to help the plot in some way. Like they wrote themselves into a corner, and used a new power to get out of it.
What I didn't care for:
+ The pace. When my 14 year old, who lives on video games and youtube clips, leans over to me and says "Jeez, this thing is moving way too fast." You know there's a problem. Things moved so quickly in the first half that the dramatic moments never landed. Not 3 minutes in and we have Kylo facing a returned from the dead Palpatine-- that should have WEIGHT and importance-- and instead, it felt like a "previously on" edit. In fact, I'd say the first forty-five minutes of this moves was basically a "previously on" edit of the Episode 8 JJ Abrams would have made. Easily the first third of the movie is just putting the plot where he wanted it to be after TFA. Whether it was ego, fan service, or having a story too big for one movie, it was forced and it showed.
+ Speaking of course corrections-- look, pretty much every SW film other than ANH retcons what came before it... and I get why people didn't care for TLJ, but pretty much all of its bold choices were reversed-- Rey's lineage DOES matter, Luke DID make a mistake, Leia DID train to be a Jedi, Rey DIDN'T shut the door on Kylo, Rose DOESN'T love Finn, Kylo IS redeemable. Even little things like Ren's fixed helmet and the Holdo maneuver quip were basically bitchy little pokes at TLJ. Again-- either fan service or ego-- either way, they could have done better. The ONE thing people would have wanted retconned more than anything, was to see more Luke.
+ Knights of Ren and Snoke. So Snoke was set up as a leader and dark side user. The Knights of Ren were supposedly Kylo and the other former Jedi students he left Luke with. Apparently NO ONE in the galaxy had the same questions we did about Snoke and where he came from? Now Palpatine just says "I made Snoke" and we see Snoke clones in a jar. WTF does that even mean? And the Knights of Ren are what exactly? Clearly not force users... what sort of organization are they? What does Kylo have going on with them? How is he the master of them? It's like JJ was told, "you can't have the Emperor or the Sith. Luke beat them" and he said "Okay-- what if I just have them but call them something else?" That got the go ahead, but then this movie comes around and they decide-- "Ah to hell with it. Just do what you wanted to do." And now it's up to some book I'll never read to figure out. They should have just said the Crimson Guard in TLJ were the Knights of Ren. I would have bought that at least.
+ The lightsaber battles in those movie were lame. I recall both JJ and Rian said they preferred the methodical, dramatically charged lightsaber fights of the OT, and both of them seemed to make good on that. I guess JJ forgot-- because this movie had lightsaber action constantly and it was all jumpy/flippy and pointless save for when Rey stabs Kylo. So basically-- kind of like the PT.
+ Apparently Palpatine only ever has two plans-- get ultimate power, blow planets up. And If he just had a fleet of warships I might get that-- but legions of troops and officers? Where did all those jerks come from and why were the just standing around?
+ So Rose and Finn's romance was dropped? Sort of? But Finn loves Rey now? Or maybe he loves the other black ex-stormtrooper? This was all very weird and I didn't understand the point.
+ Maybe I am a nerd on this one-- but I felt like the art direction was really lacking. TLJ had such a striking and unified look to it, TROS seemed all over the place. I think more planets were visited in this one than any other film (other than maybe ROTS) and none of them really stuck out as unique.
+ I agree with Choc's EU statement. A lot of the elements of this movie-- Emperor resurrected, Sith daggers, special gadgets, everybody's badass backstory, etc. It all felt very much like an EU novel-- bogged down in arcane little details that take away from telling a big mythic story.
+ My last point, and it's pretty huge... from day one, I said the only thing the ST shouldn't do is invalidate Luke's victory. The Sith were defeated. I was okay with the dark side returning-- it does that. But to specifically bring Palpatine back basically says everything Luke did ultimately did not matter. I had hope-- the screenwriter even said they didn't want to invalidate what Luke did. I knew Palpatine was going to be in this, but I guess I thought maybe it was going to be his essence in a holocron, or some sort of fake transmissions to rally people.. anything other than actually being Palpatine
So at the end of the day, I feel the same way about this one as I did about TFA. I think it is fun, and it feels right, and I love the characters-- but ultimately it defies its own logic and comes of as fan-wanking one to many times, and under close scrutiny falls apart. It is at least watchable and fun, unlike the PT, but it still doesn't come close to the OT.
I liked it, but I would never try and debate somebody who doesn't, because their complaints are probably valid.
I agree with alot of what you say here. A few things however
-I didn't take the Holdo thing as a swipe at TLJ as much as a waste of time answer to fans who complain "if they can do that why don't they always do it". So he had them say thats a 1 in a million shot.
-the "course corrections" do annoy me a bit but not because they changed TLJ. Its because the ideas in TLJ are just superior ideas. Rey being a nobody is a better idea than her being a Palpatine. I mean that news is just too much like Vader being Lukes dad. The hero is related to someone evil and worries that the evil is inherent in themselves due to it.
-however some of the stuff people see as "course correction" I think are needed. Luke catching the saber is a great moment. It makes perfect sense. He was wrong to be how he was in TLJ and him catching the saber and not allowing Rey to make the same mistake he did is a nice way to continue his story from TLJ. I also thought we may get the Luke raising the X-Wing scene in TLJ before he came back, ofcourse he did the Force projection thing which was great in it's own right.
-the connection between Rey and Kylo being used again just isn't done that well. In TLJ it feels mystical and dangerous for Rey. In this movie it feels more just like it was convienence for JJ.
-giving Chewie the medal is just silly. I mean it take a few seconds so its not a huge deal. Just that the movie is concerned about doing something like this though shows that their whole approach to the story is wrong.
-on that note, what happened to Maz? In TFA she runs a bar and seemingly hints at some kind of crush on Chewie. In TLJ she is off fighting and hints that shes had sex with the code breaker. She seems like a badass, in this movie she is essentially a grandmother? Kinda weird.
-the pacing in the first half of the movie seemed alot smoother the 2nd time I saw it.
-i disagree about Finn and Poe. Finns best movie is still TFA and he obviously takes a bit of a backseat in TLJ compared to that. But I think he needed alot of what happened in that movie. At the end of TFA he isn't committed to the Resistance, he needed for that to happen. I actually think Poe's best movie is TLJ. I love him in that movie. Thats actually a walk back of TLJ I don't like. At the end of that movie Leia seemingly hands the reigns to Poe "why are you looking at me, follow him...". Then in this movie she is back to being the general and Poe back to the role he had in TFA. Some of that may have been due to the footage they already had of Leia?
-The Knights of Ren sucked. I read somewhere Johnson almost did make them Snoke's guards and with their role in this movie, he should have.
-Palpatine coming back was dumb, it was dumb from the first time I heard him cackle in that first trailer. I think it just plays into JJ not really understanding what Star Wars is, should be and could be. His quote about how he HAD to have Palpatine as a villain in this movie to make it feel like the saga ending shows that. The same goes for his line about how with TLJ fans didn't want to be told that Star Wars doesnt matter. These quotes make no sense. TLJ ends with literally the sagas biggest hero facing down the enemy and his own greatest failure to allow the new heroes to escape. Then we see kids playing with Star Wars toys inspired by the story of Luke. What could say Star Wars matters more than that? It literally hits on what makes Star Wars so important to us. That it stuck with us and inspired us even after the movie was over. In fact I'd say TLJ would have been a better capper to the saga that this movie. The idea of hope and fighting evil even when it feels there is none and inspiring young people. That is what Star Wars is about much more than any plot point of defeating any one certain villain.
-I feel like the plot of this movie is something I woulda came up with while in my backyard with my action figures when I was 7. "Wait the Emperor didn't die after all! In fact he has more Star Destroyers than ever and every single one of them has a cannon that is as powerful as a Death Star!!!"
-I never thought the ST was going to go with Kylo's redemption. I actually would have loved either in TLJ or this movie for them to use Kylo to even question Vader's redemption. A scene where Rey talks about turning him good and Luke says she can't, then she is like "well you redeemed your father." Then have Luke go into whether or not one good act at the end can truly redeem someone who did as much evil as Vader. "People say he is redeemed. Is he redeemed to the younglings he killed? to the people of Alderaan? the men he choked simply for disappointing him..." I would have loved that, although a segment of fans would ahve really really hated it.
- Tank +1 this
Posted 22 December 2019 - 05:37 PM
Who was the Emperors baby momma? I mean this isn't exact but Rey was seemingly left maybe what? 15 years before the events of this trilogy. Her parents look what mid 30s to early 40s in the flashbacks? Which would mean they are mid 50s at most during the events of this trilogy. That places her parents birth clearly within the timeframe between Episodes I-IX. So the Emperor got someone pregnant in the time of the PT I guess? Is my math off here?
Its just funny people wanted an explanation for how the saber got to Maz but I haven;t heard anything about the Emperor having a family during the timeframe of the PT. That sounds insane.
I also don't get how people thought "it didn't make sense" that The First Order didn't hyperspace jump in front of the Resistance in TLJ. However evidently it does make sense for the Emperor to have this massive fleet which would be crewed by millions of people. How did he feed and clothe these people? Who built these ships? It certainly doesnt look like Exogol has any shipyards. Where did he get the money to buy the materials without the ability to tax the galaxy? If he could just go to this ancient Sith planet and have the largest, most powerful fleet in galactic history built in secret then why did he even bother his whole manipulation during the PT?