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The "I've seen The Rise of Skywalker" Thread


Lucas1138
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Im not saying there is anything wrong with a fan wanting to have seen more of her and being disappointed they didn't. The issue I have is that fans just cant say "man Phasma looked cool I wish she was there more." They have to add the extra bit to justify their opinon of "JJ set it up and Rian ignored it". If thats the case then why did no one complain about Maz's role in TLJ?

I think I did mention Maz above. I'll clarify my stance, ftr: Whether or not JJ had a plan for where things should go, he introduced characters, he introduced the main story. That's what the first movie does, it sets the stage. I might even go as far as to say he doesn't really have to have a full plan for these things. It's on the writers/directors of the next two movies to follow the threads. Neither really did and one of them was JJ!

 

I'm also not saying every little thing absolutely must be followed, it's just missed opportunities and it sticks out as odd that distinctive characters are introduced (Phasma, Maz, Knights of Ren..) and no one follows through. I don't really think any of those characters are all that cool, but they were created, they had recognizable actors portraying them in some cases - they seemed to have some significance. Dismissing it as a fanboy wank to want to see more is inaccurate.

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My thing with Phasma is that it was all about the costume and the marketing. Think about this, if that character wore a regular First Order officers uniform or even a regular storm trooper uniform and did the exact same things and had the exact same role in TFA that she did no one would care if she was back at all, let alone in a larger role.

 

Phasma is a character who ofcourse could ahve had a really cool role going forward. But her role in TFA doesn't dictate that she must. Certain characters have to be serviced going forward. I mean you couldnt relegate Rey or Kylo or even FInn, Poe, BB etc. Phasma though I don't think needed a larger role.

 

Thats my point, ofcourse Phasma coulda had a cool role and if you liked her and wanted it then thats perfectly cool. No issues. But the fact is she is a minor character in TFA and then again a minor character in TLJ. Thats perfectly fine.

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The Choc, you're not wrong. I'm not trying to argue that it was necessary to make sure Phasma or Maz had major roles through the trilogy. I'm just saying the opportunity was there to do more with what they had. We've seen some good ideas just in this thread alone of the possibilities.

 

My thing with Phasma is that it was all about the costume and the marketing. Think about this, if that character wore a regular First Order officers uniform or even a regular storm trooper uniform and did the exact same things and had the exact same role in TFA that she did no one would care if she was back at all, let alone in a larger role.

Exactly. Those of us who went to Celebration VII in Anaheim in April 2015, eight months before TFA's release, heard throughout the panels how awesome Phasma would be and what a big deal it was that Gwendoline Christie was going to play this part. Remember, this was at the peak of Game of Thrones. And yes, of course there was "the look" of Phasma. So you're saying it yourself that the way they marketed her raised the level of expectation for the character. Hiring well-known actors to play the parts even though they'd be CGI or completely covered up was the frosting on that expectation cake.
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The constant thing I hear everywhere is that Rian didn't follow through on the ideas that JJ introduced in Force Awakens and screwed the flow of the ST as a result. The main issue really is that is JJ introduced a lot of these threads without any idea where they were going in the first place. So yeah, Rian did do the "unexpected" but there was no expectation of where it was ever going in the first place. Rian had no roadmap to work towards, not because he ignored but because there wasn't one in the first place.

 

While I agree with your larger point that a roadmap was needed, I do think JJ had more ideas where things would go. Even if he wasn't going to be coming back initially, I think he made his film with some things in mind. But knowing how he and his mystery box are, other things were clearly left hanging with no idea. I think it is a mixed bag. It's evidently clear though that TROS walked back, or course-corrected, several key elements, and in doing so wasted a ton of time, forcing the movie to be annoying fast-paced and over-expository.

 

The biggest issue is of course Rey's lineage. In early TFA drafts she was Luke's daughter. Things changed, and the idea of her being a no one came to the forefront. But I really think she was still written to be a Skywalker. I used to think this was a remnant effect of previous drafts, but the more I really look at it, I think if JJ had cut out of the last scene a few seconds later, Luke would have said "OMD REY MY LOST DAUGHTER!"

 

In TLJ, Johnson doubled down on the idea that The Force was working mysterious Rey's and was giving Rey and random young janitors power to balance things out. It was pretty definitive actually that Rey's power did not come via her lineage.

 

TROS straight up reverses this. I honestly don't know if that was JJ's idea, or if that was a note from above thanks to Disney reacting to toxic fan reaction, but to make her a Palpatine was 100% a Hail Mary to try and appease the cry-baby fans that could never reconcile that she was more powerful than Luke. I think they would have preferred her to be Luke's daughter, but TLJ made it too hard to correct to that.

 

Snoke, Phasma, Knights of Ren, Rose, even Leia to some extent... none of them went they way they were set up to be, either because differences in idea between RJ/JJ or because of studio notes.

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The constant thing I hear everywhere is that Rian didn't follow through on the ideas that JJ introduced in Force Awakens and screwed the flow of the ST as a result. The main issue really is that is JJ introduced a lot of these threads without any idea where they were going in the first place. So yeah, Rian did do the "unexpected" but there was no expectation of where it was ever going in the first place. Rian had no roadmap to work towards, not because he ignored but because there wasn't one in the first place.

 

While I agree with your larger point that a roadmap was needed, I do think JJ had more ideas where things would go. Even if he wasn't going to be coming back initially, I think he made his film with some things in mind. But knowing how he and his mystery box are, other things were clearly left hanging with no idea. I think it is a mixed bag. It's evidently clear though that TROS walked back, or course-corrected, several key elements, and in doing so wasted a ton of time, forcing the movie to be annoying fast-paced and over-expository.

 

The biggest issue is of course Rey's lineage. In early TFA drafts she was Luke's daughter. Things changed, and the idea of her being a no one came to the forefront. But I really think she was still written to be a Skywalker. I used to think this was a remnant effect of previous drafts, but the more I really look at it, I think if JJ had cut out of the last scene a few seconds later, Luke would have said "OMD REY MY LOST DAUGHTER!"

 

In TLJ, Johnson doubled down on the idea that The Force was working mysterious Rey's and was giving Rey and random young janitors power to balance things out. It was pretty definitive actually that Rey's power did not come via her lineage.

 

TROS straight up reverses this. I honestly don't know if that was JJ's idea, or if that was a note from above thanks to Disney reacting to toxic fan reaction, but to make her a Palpatine was 100% a Hail Mary to try and appease the cry-baby fans that could never reconcile that she was more powerful than Luke. I think they would have preferred her to be Luke's daughter, but TLJ made it too hard to correct to that.

 

Snoke, Phasma, Knights of Ren, Rose, even Leia to some extent... none of them went they way they were set up to be, either because differences in idea between RJ/JJ or because of studio notes.

 

Im sure JJ had some ideas. My thinking is this: Johnson was hired and he had a vision and Lucasfilm loved working with him and loved him personally. Plus I think he had a vision they liked so they decided to give him a ton of free reign. You are left with a divisive movie that is absolutely loved by some, loathed by others. Because TLJ isn't the product of anyone saying "what will people like?". Its the product of one man boiling the story down to what he believed was most important. If you agreed with him then you love it, if not then maybe not so.

 

Now Colin was hired before TFA came out, let alone TLJ. He's writing his stuff based on TLJ script, completely untarnished by the split reaction too the movie. Plus since he didn't create these characters he didn't have these preconcieved notions of where they had to go. He wrote an actual sequel to TLJ. Ofcourse he gets fired for whatever reasons and remember he was let go before TLJ came out so it had zero to do with him following up that movie.

 

My personal belief is Lucasfilm wanted to go with Rian for IX but Johnson needed a break from Star Wars. He loves it and wanted to work in it again as evidence by him agreeing to develop more movies but he just didn't want to dive right back in. So they pivoted to JJ. Now since JJ did create these characters he ofcourse had ideas for what should happen and probably couldn't clear his mind of them and pivoted back to some of those ideas.

 

In the end there is no doubt Johnson took the story in directions JJ never intended. However he didn't actually undo anything JJ did, he just continued it on differently. JJ on the other hand does undo things Rian did. Its a completely different thing.

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My thing with Phasma is that it was all about the costume and the marketing. Think about this, if that character wore a regular First Order officers uniform or even a regular storm trooper uniform and did the exact same things and had the exact same role in TFA that she did no one would care if she was back at all, let alone in a larger role.

 

I don't want to keep this going. I see your point, but it seems like you don't understand mine, because what you wrote above IS exactly my point. If she was in a normal uniform no one would care. But that's not what happened. They put her in a special uniform which signals that she's a special character. I have no love of this character that amounted to nothing. My point is there were character setups that were ignored (Phasma, Maz) or flipped around so they were useless (Hux) and it's a shame. Domhnall Gleason is a good actor. I'd have liked to see his role not reduced to what it was. Anyway. It's fine I'm not president of the Maz Kanata fan club either. It's just so much wasted opportunity after what I thought was a solid opener to this series, full of promise.

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In the end there is no doubt Johnson took the story in directions JJ never intended. However he didn't actually undo anything JJ did, he just continued it on differently. JJ on the other hand does undo things Rian did. Its a completely different thing.

 

I think that jettisoning Rey's intended backstory, killing Snoke, ignoring Finn's Force potential, and making Luke broken 100% undos what JJ established.

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In the end there is no doubt Johnson took the story in directions JJ never intended. However he didn't actually undo anything JJ did, he just continued it on differently. JJ on the other hand does undo things Rian did. Its a completely different thing.

 

I think that jettisoning Rey's intended backstory, killing Snoke, ignoring Finn's Force potential, and making Luke broken 100% undos what JJ established.

 

1-What actually in TFA suggests Finn has The Force? I remember us speculating he might in the lead up but what in the movie suggests it. Further what in the movie flat out says he does?

 

2-On Reys parentage. In the movie every character we meet thinks she is crazy for wanting to go back to Jakku to wait for them. Finn and Han both think she is crazy for it. Maz flat out says her belonging is in front of her, not behind. Her not having important parents and finding her belonging in the Resistance seems a perfect continuation of this.

 

3-Luke being broken. The only explanation we get in TFA is from Han who says "He was training a new generation of Jedi. One student turned on him and burned it all to the ground. Luke blamed himself and left, searching for the first Jedi temple." This is pretty much the exact explanation we get in TLJ.

 

4-Snoke is a boring, generic Palpatine replacement. Killing him off is a gift..

 

For me, not only does Johnsons answers to these questions fit in perfectly fine with TFA but his answers are the perfect and most interesting answers you could have.

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I'm not disputing whether or not what TLJ did was right or not. I'm saying that in more than one way, it went where JJ did not want it to go. We wouldn't see his fixes in TROS if it were not the case.

Im not disagreeing. What I was saying is there is a difference between going where JJ didn't intend to go and actually undoing something Rian did, like Reys parentage.

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While I agree with your larger point that a roadmap was needed, I do think JJ had more ideas where things would go. Even if he wasn't going to be coming back initially, I think he made his film with some things in mind. But knowing how he and his mystery box are, other things were clearly left hanging with no idea.

 

 

This isn't based on anything I've read or seen so nothing to back it up, but I get the feeling while he might have had his own idea of where it would go, I don't think he ever articulated it to anyone. He may have done this under the assumption he was never coming back and wanted to give the next filmmakers some freedom but I honestly don't think he would have ever told his ideas to Rian to follow through on.

 

But I don't agree he didn't intend for Luke to be 100% broken. Whatever he intended, he wrote that character into a corner by the end of the movie where I don't think there was any other realistic way to portray him in the sequel. I actually don't think he had any idea for Luke at all - he actually seemed to scared about representing that character full stop. He pushed it out of the way and instead just used him as a McGuffin.

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While I agree with your larger point that a roadmap was needed, I do think JJ had more ideas where things would go. Even if he wasn't going to be coming back initially, I think he made his film with some things in mind. But knowing how he and his mystery box are, other things were clearly left hanging with no idea.

 

 

This isn't based on anything I've read or seen so nothing to back it up, but I get the feeling while he might have had his own idea of where it would go, I don't think he ever articulated it to anyone. He may have done this under the assumption he was never coming back and wanted to give the next filmmakers some freedom but I honestly don't think he would have ever told his ideas to Rian to follow through on.

 

But I don't agree he didn't intend for Luke to be 100% broken. Whatever he intended, he wrote that character into a corner by the end of the movie where I don't think there was any other realistic way to portray him in the sequel. I actually don't think he had any idea for Luke at all - he actually seemed to scared about representing that character full stop. He pushed it out of the way and instead just used him as a McGuffin.

 

 

When screenwriting, even if you don't tell the audience key ideas or backstories or where things are going, you should know them yourself as the writer. JJ should know that-- but I don't know.

 

As for Luke, JJ didn't know what to do with him. He has said, and it's true, once Luke shows you have to work double time if you don't want it suddenly to be all about him. In no way can he show it without it being Dues Ex Machina. JJ couldn't crack it, so he cheated and put Luke at the end-- which was very different from where Arndt had started.

 

Sidebar-- even though he choked, I would love to read or get a breakdown on Arndt's draft.

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He definitely choked, but from what I've heard he may have been the smartest person involved: they needed to slow the process instead of trying to release a Star Wars movie every year.

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He said he needed a year to do a rewrite-- which is preposterous... but at the same time, they clearly rushed everything. Maybe he was hoping to get a few months and was negotiating by starting high? Or maybe he saw the writing on the wall and realized it was going to be a catastrophe.

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Yeah, a year is definitely crazy, but at the same time we don't know the full story. It seems like Lucasfilm might just be horrible to work with.

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Ha. I wouldn't want to do it. No matter what, people are going to hate you at a scale most professionals can't even imagine, and there are some things that should remain magical and cool.

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I already felt hated and beaten up because I took an iconic franchise villain in a mask and wrote about him as a kid. Leatherface was equal parts loved and hated, which I knew I would get-- but that hate is hard to get. I STILL get hatemail. Enough I feel like I should write George Lucas an apology for all my PT bashing.

 

I don't know Rian Johnson, but we have friends in common. They told me he truly loves the backlash. Not that he wanted people to hate the movie-- but in knowing he couldn't please everyone, that any reaction is better than none, and he loves to troll haters. I would just fold up and die.

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Easier said than done but I think you just have to believe in what you've done so much that you can't be swayed. I think thats why his movie is divisive. Its one mans strongly held idea. Rather than someone trying to make a movie that the most people would like. If your vision is near his then you love it, if not then you don;t. If it were me I'd have torn down nostalgia and the past even more than he did. And I'd love all the people who hated it.

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