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Public impeachment hearings!


90 replies to this topic

#51
zambingo

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Afterthought 2: It seems that the Trumpets defense essentially and by their only recourse had to embrace conspiracy and specifically that of a deep state because otherwise the buck stops at the President. This defensive position feels ironic in that the President says he is stonewalling to protect the presidency and future presidents, but by embracing the conspiracy what the position actually seems to do is weaken the presidency and his own. Either the president is incompetent, as evidenced by all these people being his people, or he is complicit and in fact the director of the actions. So then it seems like if the position is that the President is incompetent then the position is in support of an actual Deep State, whereby the President is not the executive officer or in control of the executive branch.

As unfortunately hilarious and again played out as it is, it feels like it comes down to...

Did you order the code red?!!
YoURE DaMN RiGHT i Did!!

And of course, to even consider all this, everyone has to ignore that the President already released a memorandum where he displays he damn well did it.
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#52
Metropolis

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Lol

#53
monkeygirl

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'Liberals do it to, of course, it seems cyclical.'

 

What do Liberal do? Gaslight? Examples?



#54
zambingo

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Bill Clinton declaring the he never had sex with that woman, and then arguing semantics with the word is, should be a simple example of a Liberal inserting a reality contrary to reality.

The flip flopping of opinions over impeachment are also examples of cyclical behavior between conservatives and liberals.

During these events, and the behaviors they spur depending on who is in need of defense, there then is usually a handful of bipartisan efforts that recognize this cyclical behavior and then choose to make a stand on whatever principle issue they hold as fair and true.

Met mentioned the GOP senate acquitted Clinton, while technically true, it is an example of a handful of representatives taking a stand on their view of fairness and truth rather than holding a party line. In that instance they obviously viewed those specific charges, and those admitted behaviors, as not rising to the standard requiring removal from office.

#55
Brando

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Not to mention Hillary arguing that the whole thing was a vast right wing conspiracy, or arguing that the impeachment was about sex.

#56
zambingo

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https://mobile.twitt...361950308216832

And so the semantics are now officially in play... I say officially as the GOP laid that talking point in the hearing this last week, but now the President has obviously become partial to it. This is now months after the memorandum was released, which would seem to indicate desperate defense reaching.

#57
Brando

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I recently watched an interview with Andy Samberg where he kept saying we when talking about jokes he didn't use for the Emmys. He was talking about his team of writers, not the US. Trump was obviously talking about himself and his campaign.


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#58
monkeygirl

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We have different definitions of 'gaslighting'. This is not at *all* to say I condone any of these things-I just wouldn't define them as gaslighting. This is the first POTUS/administration in my lifetime to use the technique so I'm not even comfortable labeling it as a partisan or GOP-only tactic.

 

"Bill Clinton declaring the he never had sex with that woman" Well, that's just plain lying. There was no psychological ****ery involved in that.

"and then arguing semantics with the word is, should be a simple example of a Liberal inserting a reality contrary to reality." Again-a reality contrary to reality is a lie, but this comes closer, anyway. He was flailing and attempting to deflect by picking a semantics fight

"The flip flopping of opinions over impeachment are also examples of cyclical behavior between conservatives and liberals."

Meh. This is chasing votes.

"During these events, and the behaviors they spur depending on who is in need of defense, there then is usually a handful of bipartisan efforts that recognize this cyclical behavior and then choose to make a stand on whatever principle issue they hold as fair and true."

I don't even know what this means or why you chose to type it here

"Met mentioned the GOP senate acquitted Clinton, while technically true, it is an example of a handful of representatives taking a stand on their view of fairness and truth rather than holding a party line. In that instance they obviously viewed those specific charges, and those admitted behaviors, as not rising to the standard requiring removal from office."

And even  more WTF

 

To me, gaslighting involves a psychological campaign of making the victim question his/her own eyes, hearing, even sanity by constantly either insisting things seen and heard were not seen and heard and a concerted effort to manipulate the victim's environment to bolster the perpetrator's assertions.

 

Trump saying he never said Mexico was going to pay for the wall would be an example. Trump saying he'll release his tax returns but then changing his mind-that's just a lie.


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#59
Brando

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Vast right-wing conspiracy and Biden saying he didn't call the guy fat are relevant examples.


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#60
Ms. Spam

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I just hate that term "gaslighting". American's should be responsible enough and educated enough to vote and chose without being manipulated or sold something. Maybe that's why the forefathers who were land owners and not completely stupid because they could manage daily life wrote the constitution the way they did. 


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#61
zambingo

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Thats a really good expansion of your point about gaslighting, MG. I dig it, not necessarily agree in total however. But... this is probably just a semantics issue, to what extent warrants this term.

Gaslighting, for me, is obviously at its base is a lie. Then the definition expands, like you and others note, as an attempt to persuade another person they are wrong... when they arent, and to the obvious detrimental psychological aspects of that persuasion. Also usually this is applied in a situation when the liar, the abuser, has authority or power over another. Which to be clear, the abusers power is both literal and not. Which is part of the abuse, really. What I mean there is I am allowing for the argument that someone can actually have power over someone thru might... even tho that obviously doesnt make them right... but I am digressing here.

This is why I apply this term to lies told by a President or other person of similar authority.

For me, Bill Clinton attempted to gaslight the country. His lie was told not just to protect himself, which is an aside and doesnt really matter, but to convince people whatever evidence they heard or saw was a lie. And he did this with power and authority. And then if you buy his lie, you have now accepted his version of reality. Then when you accept the lie of someone with authority over you, their power over you is arguably absolute. All of this to me is the act of and result of gaslighting, this is abuse.

Its also what the GOP and Trump are presently doing, but again and obviously my point was they are not alone in it... which is where we are also disagreeing.

As to your other issues, I was describing my observation of when these things happen, how and why. I then reinforced this observation in the final part by giving a historical example of people breaking thru the lies and/or party lines to make decisions and take action based on the evidence at hand. I was trying to end on a note of hope, essentially.

*multiple edits, was posted while traveling
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#62
Brando

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I just hate that term "gaslighting".


It's the worst, and it always pisses me off.

American's should be responsible enough and educated enough to vote and chose without being manipulated or sold something. Maybe that's why the forefathers who were land owners and not completely stupid because they could manage daily life wrote the constitution the way they did.


People are really easy to manipulate. Rich or poor.

#63
zambingo

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Im going to use the term gaslighting now as much as I possibly can. ;-) lol
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#64
Ms. Spam

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HAHAHAHA. Don't tell my students or when I'm trying to teach the math behind parabolas this week they'll say I'm gaslighting them! It's my conference period and I turn on NPR and guess what?! More impeachment stuff! They're dithering over point of order and restating everything we already know so far. It's like the longest version of a too be continued what happened last tv show...



#65
Ms. Spam

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I agree with those charges! On to the Senate!



#66
monkeygirl

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What's wrong with the term 'gaslighting'? YOU BABIES! :) have you seen the film it comes from?

 

https://www.britanni...pic/gaslighting

 

zambingo-with your definition of the word? yeah, everyone does THAT. But this is the first administration in my lifetime that has lied to this extent. And the sheer number of subjects it has covered-crowd size at events to things said on video-seems unprecedented.


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#67
Ms. Spam

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OH MAH GAWD. Well not that dramatic but it is kinda galling that the GOP is so hypocritical. 

 

In other news it is too cold to go outside today. 46 degrees. UGH.



#68
monkeygirl

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FORTY SIX is too cold to go outside? FORTY SIX?



#69
Brando

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What's wrong with the term 'gaslighting'? YOU BABIES! :) have you seen the film it comes from?

 

https://www.britanni...pic/gaslighting

 

Sure, I’ve seen it.  It’s also only become incredibly popular within the past couple of years, almost 8 decades later.   



#70
Justus

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OH MAH GAWD. Well not that dramatic but it is kinda galling that the GOP is so hypocritical. 
 
In other news it is too cold to go outside today. 46 degrees. UGH.

You mean as hypocritical as Pelosi pushing this farce when she once said of impeachment...



#71
Ms. Spam

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HAHA. I forgot about that. I used to hate Pelosi too. Now I think it's because she talks **** to the president and about the president. The GOP is going to the they're doing this because they didn't like the results of the 2016 elections but my god, GOP, why did they wait until 2020 to do something about it? But Schiff is right. If we get Trump again in 2020 something needs to be done to reign this hot hair balloon back called Trump.



#72
Ms. Spam

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FORTY SIX is too cold to go outside? FORTY SIX?

YES. I'm Texan now and not immune to yucky weather.



#73
Metropolis

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The GOP is going to the they're doing this because they didn't like the results of the 2016 elections but my god, GOP, why did they wait until 2020 to do something about it?


Because they're afraid that not one of the candidates can beat Trump. This isn't an impeachment. It's an anti Trump ad.

#74
Iceheart

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Its currently 19 degrees here, with a wind chill of 1. Just one. Its warmer than we expected and everyone is glad.

I dont have any insight about the impeachment, I just have to be a cold weather douche.

I will say that my brother is a huge gaslighter. Its pretty easy to tell them theyre full of **** and stick to it when they lie if youre really convinced of yourself and the truth, but I can see how the tactic would work on anyone with a little self doubt.

And living with a gaslighter and knowing how they operate and knowing what to look for means that Ive watched Trump gaslight everyone since 2016. The term gaslighter should have been used the first time the words Fake News were uttered, and should have been used as a counter every time since, but no one wanted to call a spade a spade.
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#75
monkeygirl

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OH MAH GAWD. Well not that dramatic but it is kinda galling that the GOP is so hypocritical. 
 
In other news it is too cold to go outside today. 46 degrees. UGH.

You mean as hypocritical as Pelosi pushing this farce when she once said of impeachment...

 

Saying a party is 'consumed by hate' is light years from accusing one person of hating another and impeaching him because of it.  I see the GOP being hypocritical daily in the impeachment arena-from storming the doors of the inquiry (GOP members are ON that committee-that was pure theater) and the blatant excuses they're making for Fat Donnie, though





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