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What is the ST about?


25 replies to this topic

#1
Darth Ender

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The PT is about the Dark SIde gaining power and the downfall of the Jedi.  

 

The OT is about the redemption of Light.  

 

WTF is the ST about?  The rebels really didn't win and this is where they REALLY win?  The light is still better than the dark?

 

WTF is up with Snoke.  I mean...WTF?



#2
zambingo

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I think that thinking in Star Wars terms (Dark Side this, or the Force that, or what the hell is balance anyway) could all cloud the potential simplicity of the inherent messages of each story.

I think it might be...

PT: Anakin Skywalker was a failure.
* Perhaps its all about Power, gaining it and losing it?

OT: Luke Skywalker was a redeemer.
* Perhaps its all about Hope, having it and not losing it?

ST: Rey [insert surname] is a founder?
* Perhaps its all about Knowledge, gaining it and teaching it?

#3
Tank

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I think Ender is being a little rhetorical-- the main problem with the ST is that it doesn't know what it is about.

 

Or rather, it does, but the two movies we have don't agree.

 

If the PT was about darkness taking hold and destroying the golden age, and the OT was about hope and goodness pushing that evil back, and your name is JJ Abrams, the ST is about looking at what the light had to sacrifice to win, but if their hope is re-awakened it is strong enough to still beat back the darkness trying to return.

 

But if your name is Rian Johnson, the ST is about abandoning the old and evolving past to establish a new paradigm of hope and light.


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#4
zambingo

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I figured, re: Ender

But those points were also why I chose Knowledge for the ST. Even though the two films sorta splay both deal with Rey seeking knowledge. Rey seeks info about herself, her place, the Force etc. Rey looks for someone or something to teach her in both. And now, shes essentially what is left. If JJ can continue that thread, and Rey does have the Jedi books plus anything they can patch together via older Carrie footage and new Ghost Luke stuff, then that could bring the three films back together in a way that sorta looks cohesive.

#5
Darth Ender

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I figured, re: Ender

But those points were also why I chose Knowledge for the ST. Even though the two films sorta splay both deal with Rey seeking knowledge. Rey seeks info about herself, her place, the Force etc. Rey looks for someone or something to teach her in both. And now, shes essentially what is left. If JJ can continue that thread, and Rey does have the Jedi books plus anything they can patch together via older Carrie footage and new Ghost Luke stuff, then that could bring the three films back together in a way that sorta looks cohesive.

I agree, but to me that is Rey's character arc.  Not necessarily the ST.  

 

I suppose you could argue that Anakin and Luke's arcs also mirror the arcs of their respective trilogies, but they have other characters arcs that align with the trilogies arcs.  In the PT and OT other characters supported that arc.  No one is supporting Rey's search for knowledge.  Everyone is just kinda doing their own thing.  


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#6
zambingo

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Yeah, well, youre not wrong. :-)

#7
Brando

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It's a search for belonging. Finn, Rey, and Kylo are trying to find a place where they belong. Kylo is angrily trying to make it, but that's also because the last time he had a place his uncle almost murdered him while he slept. Rey and Finn are more obvious, but also different. Rey wants to be the hero of the story and Finn wanted to be the peaceful nobody somewhere. Neither truly belonged where they started in the story. Given that Kylo killed his boss within a couple of weeks of the beginning of the movies, he obviously didn't exactly belong in the First Order the way it was.
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#8
zambingo

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I can dig it.

#9
Filthy Jawa

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OT is the Hero's Quest
PT is the Villain's Quest
ST is both combined

Rebels, Empire, smugglers, bounty hunters, droids, creatures...that's all window dressing and supporting cast. These trilogies are about Luke, Vader, ReyLo.

I mean, I'm not wrong.
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#10
Odine

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None of you are wrong.


There isn't much more to add. The ST still feels like fumbling around in the dark whilst taking potshots at thematic beats and hoping one hits the mark.
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#11
Jedigoat

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I've been gone a while so I'm sure it's been said already....Lucas should have been kept around to bounce ideas off of.  Especially at the start.  Why would you not have him as a story consultant, at the minimum, when he created literally everything.  I know George stopped by during filming of every Disney made SW, but I don't seem to think he stuck around long enough to go over story, characters, structure or theme.

I felt good with Kasdan helping out but he was only around for 7 (and also Solo).  Bringing him back now just displays the lack of vision.  Maybe not, there's still one more chapter to tell so maybe it will all gel.  The OT and PT don't gel perfectly either if you start to dissect them.  But at least, thematically (for better or worse), George was a master.  And that's what is missing.

I still love the sequel trilogy though!  And the standalone films!


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#12
Darth Ender

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It's a search for belonging. Finn, Rey, and Kylo are trying to find a place where they belong. Kylo is angrily trying to make it, but that's also because the last time he had a place his uncle almost murdered him while he slept. Rey and Finn are more obvious, but also different. Rey wants to be the hero of the story and Finn wanted to be the peaceful nobody somewhere. Neither truly belonged where they started in the story. Given that Kylo killed his boss within a couple of weeks of the beginning of the movies, he obviously didn't exactly belong in the First Order the way it was.

Couldn't this be true of the other trilogies?

 

Luke: farm boy to a jedi

Han:  selfish smuggler finding a greater good

Vader: finding love for his son (OT) and a slave becoming a jedi (PT)

Yoda/ObiWan:  cult leaders whom finds greater power through loss of the cult 

R2D2: beloved side character that lost its ability to fly that eventually becomes an irrelevent after thought



#13
Kyrian

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The OT and PT is the story of how one stroppy family causes untold suffering throughout the galaxy.

 

The ST is about trying to clear up their mess.


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#14
zambingo

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LOL I like it.

#15
The Choc

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Did we know what the OT was about with 2 movies done and 1 left? I was a kid in 1983 so I don't remember but did anyone really predict think it would be about Vader's redemption? Was that a widely held belief?

 

Star Wars is essentially about a kid fighting back against the guy who killed his dad. Empire totally flips that around. Jedi I don't think people know how it was going to go or know about that message of redemption. 

 

Basically what I'm saying is we don't know what the ST is about until it's over. We gotta wait for the picture to be finished painting. 

 

People knew what the PT was about because we essentially knew how the story ended. No one knew what the OT was about until Vader went and threw the Emperor down the shaft. It's a good thing we don't know exactly what the story is about at this point. It's a positive, not a negative. 


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#16
Brando

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Did we know what the OT was about with 2 movies done and 1 left? I was a kid in 1983 so I don't remember but did anyone really predict think it would be about Vader's redemption? Was that a widely held belief?
 
Star Wars is essentially about a kid fighting back against the guy who killed his dad. Empire totally flips that around. Jedi I don't think people know how it was going to go or know about that message of redemption. 
 
Basically what I'm saying is we don't know what the ST is about until it's over. We gotta wait for the picture to be finished painting. 
 
People knew what the PT was about because we essentially knew how the story ended. No one knew what the OT was about until Vader went and threw the Emperor down the shaft. It's a good thing we don't know exactly what the story is about at this point. It's a positive, not a negative.


We can read whatever we want into things, which is fun, but I don't think people thought the OT was about Vader's redemption until Lucas started saying it when he started the PT.

The OT was about Luke's journey. The PT was about Anakin's journey. The ST is about Rey's journey.
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#17
The Choc

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That's fair, saying the OT is about Vader's redemption is partial revisitionist history and also an incomplete statement. All I'm really saying is we won't know what it's about until it's over and that's not a bad thing. Could Rey and company figure out some way to truly defeat evil and the way in which they do it is the central message? Sure. Could they wit but with the understanding that darkness will rise again. The message being that evil cannot truly be defeated and every generation has their own challenges to overcome? Yeah, totally possible. Either of those, and many other potential ideas, could completely work. 



#18
DANA-kin Skywalker

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The PT was about a certain evil manipulating a predictable and complacent governmental system into submission.
The OT was about people facing this evil head-on and defeating it.

We dont really know what the ST is ultimately going to be about until its complete like choc says, but after two movies it appears to be about the remnants of a certain evil destroying and conquering the galaxy...

#19
Tank

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If you want to reduce it down to the basic building blocks, they are all treatises on mythic story-telling. They are all variations of the hero's journey.

The OT is the classic, simplest version. The PT followed the same course, but showed what happens if the hero fails.

The ST trying to show both at the same time.
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#20
Lord Darth Hunter

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We dont really know what the ST is ultimately going to be about until its complete like choc says, but after two movies it appears to be about the remnants of a certain evil destroying and conquering the galaxy...

I would love it if the ST turned out to finish off with Palpatine winning.  :devil:



#21
Odine

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We dont really know what the ST is ultimately going to be about until its complete like choc says, but after two movies it appears to be about the remnants of a certain evil destroying and conquering the galaxy...

I would love it if the ST turned out to finish off with Palpatine winning.  :devil:

Yeah. Just force lightenings everyone to paste

#22
El Chalupacabra

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The PT is about the Dark SIde gaining power and the downfall of the Jedi.  

 

The OT is about the redemption of Light.  

 

WTF is the ST about?  The rebels really didn't win and this is where they REALLY win?  The light is still better than the dark?

 

WTF is up with Snoke.  I mean...WTF?

 

My take, FWIW.

 

 

PT= Hubris:  The republic and jedi fell because they failed to see the evil in front of them all along.  Anakin's hubris thinking he was all-powerful, lead to his downfall, and in the end becomes the very thing he wishes to stop.

 

OT=Redemption and vanquishing the villain: heroes journey where Luke, Leia, and Han seek to restore the  republic.  Luke seeks to redeem his father. The empire and emperor are destroyed.

 

ST= Iconoclasm: The previous generation (Luke, Leia, Han) are revered as legends but are actually flawed and imperfect (failing Kylo), the New republic fails to learn from history and allows the return of the First Order which defeats the New Republic, and it is up to the new generation (Rey, Poe, Finn) to realize the heroes they idolized are just people like them, and to correct the flaws/mistakes made by the "legends." 



#23
Brando

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We dont really know what the ST is ultimately going to be about until its complete like choc says, but after two movies it appears to be about the remnants of a certain evil destroying and conquering the galaxy...

I would love it if the ST turned out to finish off with Palpatine winning.  :devil:
Yeah. Just force lightenings everyone to paste

I would prefer he darken everyone to glue.

#24
The Choc

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The PT is about the Dark SIde gaining power and the downfall of the Jedi.  

 

The OT is about the redemption of Light.  

 

WTF is the ST about?  The rebels really didn't win and this is where they REALLY win?  The light is still better than the dark?

 

WTF is up with Snoke.  I mean...WTF?

 

My take, FWIW.

 

 

PT= Hubris:  The republic and jedi fell because they failed to see the evil in front of them all along.  Anakin's hubris thinking he was all-powerful, lead to his downfall, and in the end becomes the very thing he wishes to stop.

 

OT=Redemption and vanquishing the villain: heroes journey where Luke, Leia, and Han seek to restore the  republic.  Luke seeks to redeem his father. The empire and emperor are destroyed.

 

ST= Iconoclasm: The previous generation (Luke, Leia, Han) are revered as legends but are actually flawed and imperfect (failing Kylo), the New republic fails to learn from history and allows the return of the First Order which defeats the New Republic, and it is up to the new generation (Rey, Poe, Finn) to realize the heroes they idolized are just people like them, and to correct the flaws/mistakes made by the "legends." 

 

I think this is as good a thought as any. I'd add and it's along the same lines that its about evil always existing and every generation having to do their part to defeat it. 

 

Also though it's about alot of the same things the OT was about. For those of us who grew up or are long time fans of the OT that may seem repetitive and not needed. For the kid who is 12 now though? Totally different. There is a thread in the Cantina about being old. We need to realize how long ago 1977 is to the 12 year old kid. I was born in 1977 so I was 12 in 1989. '77 is now 42 years ago. 42 years before 1989 was 1947. Think about that. To a 12 year old kid now 1977 is as long ago as 1947 was to me. In 1989 I'd have zero interest in anything from 1947. Thats how alot of kids would view the OT, as old. It would look dated, even simple things like the characters haircuts would seem weird and out of place and lame.


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#25
Filthy Jawa

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As true as the numbers may be (and I didn't check, I'm trusting you can subtract), it doesn't really hold true. Showing Star Wars to a kid today (I recently let my four year-old watch the OT - hey he wanted to) holds up in a lot of ways. The haircuts look dated to all of us, but it doesn't matter.
Especially if you watch the SE, but even if you watch the original theatrical releases, the effects are convincing - that's a big part of what made it so ground-breaking and ahead of its time...and more importantly, the story is as compelling (or more so) as films today. There isn't something from 1947 you could say that about in 1989. Certainly not in film.
I'm not saying your point is invalid - to a teenager today, I'm sure the OT looks dated, but it's not like 1947 was to us.
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