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Should artists be cancelled?


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#1
Brando

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Changing topic entirely:

An artist's behavior away from their craft doesn't increase or decrease the value of the art.

Michael Jackson's music is no worse because of his likely child abuse.

The Cosby Show is still one of the greatest sitcoms of all-time despite Cosby being a serial rapist.

Chuck Lorre could cure cancer and solve climate change and colonize the moon and his shows would still suck.

#2
Odine

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Changing topic entirely:

An artist's behavior away from their craft doesn't increase or decrease the value of the art.

Michael Jackson's music is no worse because of his likely child abuse.

The Cosby Show is still one of the greatest sitcoms of all-time despite Cosby being a serial rapist.

Chuck Lorre could cure cancer and solve climate change and colonize the moon and his shows would still suck.


I remind people of this every time someone brings up the the dodgy politics *read: OMG Nazi here* of *insert metal band here*.

It's almost as if one can read, own or listen to something without advocating, believing in, or supporting the beliefs/actions of the creator. Shocking isn't it. Freedom of thought exists

#3
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True... I still watch Polanski films...

...but I consider what he's done as part of conversation about said films. I don't think you should dismiss the work of people who turn out to be monsters, but you also shouldn't pretend that who they are isn't present in their work.
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#4
El Chalupacabra

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Kevin Spacey.  Kind of hard to rewatch House of Cards, American Beauty, or Se7en now.



#5
Odine

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Nah Kevin Spacey is a dude. House of Cards is great as was Baby Driver

#6
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True... I still watch Polanski films...

...but I consider what he's done as part of conversation about said films. I don't think you should dismiss the work of people who turn out to be monsters, but you also shouldn't pretend that who they are isn't present in their work.


I agree

#7
El Chalupacabra

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Nah Kevin Spacey is a dude. House of Cards is great as was Baby Driver

Politics or saying/doing something stupid that doesn't really hurt anyone is one thing.  Actors and musicians say and do stupid stuff all the time.  Goes along with their huge egos.  

 

 

But when one is a sexual predator, and plays one in a movie or TV show, kind of hard to rewatch for me.  It sort of solves the question as to why Spacey was so good at those roles, and makes him too creepy to watch. 

 

Also affects my enjoyment and/or opinion of work by MJ, Cosby Show, and Elvis (not enjoyment, but opinion) to name a few.   Or OJ when it comes to Naked Gun (murder or rape, same difference in this area). 

 

I think that's all I am gonna say, because this is a topic unto itself.



#8
Brando

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Then let's split it to a new topic.

#9
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I'll also add to my thoughts: there's a huge difference between "I won't watch" and "No one can watch" but I'm curious about feelings for both.

Polanski is a great example for me. His crimes don't diminish the quality of his work, but I also won't watch them because he's currently commiting a crime and I don't want to support it.

#10
El Chalupacabra

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When you make that distinction, then I side with "I won't watch."  I am not into censorship, and people can decide for themselves what to watch or not.  Also, I agree talent is not erased by a crime, but it does overshadow it, for me.

 

But when an artist (singer, musician, actor, director, writer, producer, etc) is guilty or has enough circumstantial evidence to indicate guilt of a serious crime, like assault, battery, sex crimes, or murder, I can't revisit their work and enjoy it.



#11
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I'll also add to my thoughts: there's a huge difference between "I won't watch" and "No one can watch" but I'm curious about feelings for both.

Polanski is a great example for me. His crimes don't diminish the quality of his work, but I also won't watch them because he's currently commiting a crime and I don't want to support it.

The support angle-- I tend to avoid new work of said monsters to not support. But more often that not, they've gotten my nickel already. I own physical copies of Chinatown, Off The Wall, and Seven. I can rewatch them without paying monsters.

#12
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Kevin Spacey is yet to be proven as a sexual predator.  Guy is a bit of a sleaze to be sure, but it's not like hes a monster. I'm suspicious of all the alegations that came out after the #metoo thing happened against him. It reaks of opportunism to me. And yeah, there was a young dude in his bedroom.. but why the hell would this dude be in Kevin Spaceys bedroom if he didn't know what was up. Not excusing Spacey's behaviour, but there is more to meets the eye, and the dude was happy not coming forward for 20 odd years  then smelt the opportunity to throw Spacey under the bus and make some reperation money.

 

I'm not articulating myself particularly well. But in essence people are willing to sleep with high profile people to either say that they did or to get ahead. A lot that comes out afterwards is,  I think, people not happy with how things turned out and want to get even.

 

Weinstien is a different story though. I make no apologies for scumbag rapists. Hope he gets it in prison.


Edited by Odine, 23 June 2019 - 09:43 AM.


#13
Brando

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Using your same argument, Weinstein has yet to be proven guilty, so what's the difference?
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#14
El Chalupacabra

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Kevin Spacey is yet to be proven as a sexual predator.  Guy is a bit of a sleaze to be sure, but it's not like hes a monster. I'm suspicious of all the alegations that came out after the #metoo thing happened against him. It reaks of opportunism to me. And yeah, there was a young dude in his bedroom.. but why the hell would this dude be in Kevin Spaceys bedroom if he didn't know what was up. Not excusing Spacey's behaviour, but there is more to meets the eye, and the dude was happy not coming forward for 20 odd years  then smelt the opportunity to throw Spacey under the bus and make some reperation money.

Proven in a court of law?  Perhaps.  But I think theres enough of circumstantial evidence and people independent of each other making claim that it is good enough for me to write off Spacey as a predator.  

 

I have argued in the past that the #metoo movement started out as a good thing but has become weaponized and used as a tool for financial or political gain, and I stand by that.  But in Spacey's case, I think that does not apply.  Too many rumors have persisted for years prior to the #metoo movement to ignore.  Too many people came forward from different walks of life to ignore.  

 

 

 

 

I'll also add to my thoughts: there's a huge difference between "I won't watch" and "No one can watch" but I'm curious about feelings for both.

Polanski is a great example for me. His crimes don't diminish the quality of his work, but I also won't watch them because he's currently commiting a crime and I don't want to support it.


The support angle-- I tend to avoid new work of said monsters to not support. But more often that not, they've gotten my nickel already. I own physical copies of Chinatown, Of The Wall, and Seven. I can rewatch them without paying monsters.

 

I agree with not buying new stuff to support, and if one already bought something before they knew about, or before a scandal, no harm in enjoying what you have, if the money is already spent.  That is if you can enjoy it at all.  I can't in some cases, like Spacey.  

 

I don't have a dog in this fight about Polanski, because I never thought much of his work, outside Rosemary's Baby and Ninth Gate, which I don't own anyway.  But I won't support the guy, either, because he is a perv.  

 

That said, I am gonna be torn if it ever turns out Quentin Tarantino ever turns out to be sex fiend. I definitely won't support further work at that point, but it will be hard to let go of my media I've already purchased.  I'll cross that bridge if it ever does.  I hope it never does though. 



#15
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A recent case was when Liam Neeson admitted to doing something super racist in the past and then the internet wanted him to fail at everything and go in a corner and die.

Taken 2 and 3 are better reasons to not watch his movies,

Unless there was a personal connection with the person's work, I don't think it would keep me from enjoying their past work, as long as I already did.

Seven is great, and nothing changes that, but I'm also in a very different place in my life and haven't watched it in years even though it was once in a regular rotation.

Michael Jackson's music is catchy and hard to avoid dancing to, and nothing changes that for me, but I'm also not buying his albums.

And, like I said, the Cosby Show is still one of the greatest sitcoms of all time, and I'm glad that Amazon has the guts to have it in their streaming library.

#16
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For the record, the guy who first spoke up about Spacey is now adult, but his encounter was when he was 14.

Once he came forward, multiple others did, who have not gotten famous or been paid off. I think the opportunism defense is always bull.

In fact, the ONLY person I can think of that benefitted in that way from outing the person that skeeved on them is Monica Lewinski.

#17
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Based on Lewinsky being slut-shamed and hated by Democrats forever, I'm not sure she benefited as much as people say.
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#18
El Chalupacabra

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A recent case was when Liam Neeson admitted to doing something super racist in the past and then the internet wanted him to fail at everything and go in a corner and die.

Taken 2 and 3 are better reasons to not watch his movies,

Unless there was a personal connection with the person's work, I don't think it would keep me from enjoying their past work, as long as I already did.

Seven is great, and nothing changes that, but I'm also in a very different place in my life and haven't watched it in years even though it was once in a regular rotation.

Michael Jackson's music is catchy and hard to avoid dancing to, and nothing changes that for me, but I'm also not buying his albums.

And, like I said, the Cosby Show is still one of the greatest sitcoms of all time, and I'm glad that Amazon has the guts to have it in their streaming library.

Liam Neeson I think was trying to make a statement how wrong racism is and was using himself as an example.  But the dude was tone deaf to how it would be received.   Either due to the ivory tower he lives in that is show biz, or stupidity.  He brought it on himself and was wrong for what he did/said, but at the same time, I think what he was trying to do was (in his mind) something positive.  I think he deserves at least the benefit of the doubt that he no longer thinks that way, because if he hadn't said anything, no one would have known about it.   I mean why would he say it in the first place, if it wasn't?

 

I hear you on Se7en.  I've changed since I first saw it, too.  Spacey isn't the only reason I don't rewatch it.  But it is one of the main reasons.

 

Cosby show for me was good in the 1980s, but I haven't watched it since about that time.  At one time I did defend the guy (Lyceum), but I can't now and have changed my opinion about him.

 

I don't fault anyone liking MJ's music.  I still do, too.  I just won't buy anything from his estate or music.  But I will listen (and like it) when his music is played, but I also have the fact he was an alleged (and likely) child molester in my mind when I listen, too.  

 

 

Based on Lewinsky being slut-shamed and hated by Democrats forever, I'm not sure she benefited as much as people say.

 I think she set Clinton up, but at the same time, it wasn't all that difficult considering he is arguably a (by today's standards) borderline exploiter of women.  What was once tolerated, or even applauded back then, isn't now.  But it is weird how people on the left will defend him, especially leftist feminists, but they will go after an equally (if not worse) abuser, like Trump.    Funny how politics of some people will cause them to be hypocrites (not directed to anyone here, nor am I wanting this to become a Lyceum debate).



#19
El Chalupacabra

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 I think the opportunism defense is always bull.

 

You have the right to believe that, and I am not here to change anyone's mind.   Nor do I want to debate on that.   But "always?"  Short-sighted in my view.  



#20
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Especially since we have a major example of opportunism with the one woman who accused Kavanaugh. The one that was repped by the sleazy attorney, not the one that testified.
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#21
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"Always" = 98%

There will always be exceptions, but not enough that opportunism should be the go-to it is for arm chair defenders.

#22
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98% seems way to high to me, but I have no stats, so I can only convey opinion.  But whatever the number is, I think the court of public opinion too often decides too early on that the person making the accusation is ALWAYS telling the truth, and the accused is ALWAYS guilty.  But that does not take away from legitimate claims and examples of impropriety. I doubt you and I will agree fully, so that is all I have to say on this particular point. 


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#23
Brando

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"Always" = 98%
There will always be exceptions, but not enough that opportunism should be the go-to it is for arm chair defenders.


I agree with that. It's overused, but the way we consume media also changes how we relate to people, so it makes sense that we're quick to believe them. If Kevin Spacey has been in my bedroom via me watching House of Cards on my iPad, I'm going to feel a connection to him that I don't have with his accuser, who I haven't seen in anything for 20 years.

#24
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I agree with that. It's overused, but the way we consume media also changes how we relate to people, so it makes sense that we're quick to believe them. If Kevin Spacey has been in my bedroom via me watching House of Cards on my iPad, I'm going to feel a connection to him that I don't have with his accuser, who I haven't seen in anything for 20 years.

I agree there is that too.  Many examples of people defending celebrities or people in positions of authority because they like them.  I acknowledge the fact that people who have legitimately been victimized have a mountain of an uphill battle when accusing their attacker, if they are rich, powerful, and/or famous.   



#25
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I think that's part of why it was so easy for people to believe about Weinstein. He's behind the scenes, so there aren't those attachments.



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