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Balance


11 replies to this topic

#1
The Choc

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This isn't a prediction more just what I'm sure will turn into a rambling idea.

 

The idea of balance isn't really present in the OT, so we can just skip that. It's really brought up in the PT, most famously in the "prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the force." To the Jedi it seems balance means that there is no real dark side presence in the galaxy. Basically the dark side if a perversion of the Force and any dark side means imbalance. This is somewhat why they are so worried about Anakin. If the Force has been in balance and this kid is supposed to bring balance then obviously that means it will soon be brought out of balance.

 

Now lets fast forward to TLJ when balance is really brought up again. There are a couple of instances that I want to bring up. 

 

1-Snoke when he says "darkness rises and light to meet it". Then goes on to say he thought it would be Luke. This seems to show that he expected the light to combat the dark. That the 2 sides are in a constant conflict. Whenever darkness rises, light will also. And perhaps vice versa.

 

2-When Rey is reaching out and says she sees life, death, death feeding life etc. Luke responds something like "powerful light, powerful dark..balance." However this seems at least somewhat out of line with what the Jedi had believed. They seemed to believe that there could be no darkness if balance were to  be achieved. Luke seemingly says something different. Now it could just be some throwaway line Luke says, but maybe not.

 

What if between ROTJ and when he started to train Ben that Luke had come to the realization that balance cannot be achieved by banishing the darkness. That if you do that the darkness will just rise again, then light will fight it. One side will win and then the other will rise to fight it again. A never ending cycle of conflict between light and dark.

 

Luke comes to the conclusion that the 2 sides have to co-exist for their to be lasting balance. That in order to bring balance and to be a true master of the Force that one has to master both sides of it. Now out of all his students who would Luke likely try to do this with? His nephew with the mighty Skywalker blood, Ben Solo. So Luke actually begins to attempt to push Ben down this path. Ofcourse Ben cannot handle it and falls to darkness. He cannot achieve the balance. Because although to achieve lasting balance one has to master both sides of the Force attempting to do so is fraught with danger. This could play into Luke's immense guilt over Ben. Not only did he fail as his teacher but his new teaching method basically is what started Ben's fall.

 

Now fast forward to IX. Rey is trying to lead the Resistance, defeat the darkness. However Luke knows any victory over Kylo will  be temporary. Darkness will just rise again and the conflict will continue unabated. Luke returns as a ghost and tells Rey this info. Basically "ok, you can blow up the First Order and kill Kylo but darkness will rise again and in a generation there will just be another war. You cannot really win this way." Rey is obviously frightened of learning the darkside but she understands Luke and begins down this path to master both sides of the Force.

 

Thing is Luke don't know the darkside, so how can he teach it? This is why Rey seeks out Palpatine's spirit/ghost/whatever. Not to defeat him as the final villain but to learn from him. Ofcourse this won't go exactly as she'd like and she teeters on the darkness overwhelming her. In the end though she is able to harness the dark side and master it to the point that it does not consume her. Inside her the darkness and the light exist together in balance, so the 2 sides no longer end up engaged in some unending conflict. 

 

This makes her the most powerful Force user ever and allows her to defeat the First Order and Kylo Ren (who plays a major role in this and himself perhaps attempts to master both sides of the Force but fails as he just cannot overcome the darkness).

 

Then at the end she finds a new student(s) but she is not training them to be Jedi (who only dealt in light) or Sith (who only dealt in darkness) but to be something new: Skywalkers. 


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#2
Tank

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Here's two somewhat contrary thoughts--

1. While I dislike the "gray Jedi" concept, I've always maintained that Luke followed the beat of his own drum. He went against what Yoda and Obi-Wan told him, but was ultimately right with the path he chose. So if his thoughts on the force differ from the PT era Jedi, I think that tracks.

2. I'm a broken record with this-- but Star Wars is mythic storytelling. It's black hats and white hats, good versus evil. Shades of gray is something not normally entertained. Rogue One played with it, but even it ultimately went for redemption for even gray actions in favor of being a white hat. So to that, I don't see a Star Wars hero using darkness for their advantage any more than Luke or Vader did.

#3
Darth Ender

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I always felt the term balanced referred to the light side, not a combination of dark and light.  To me, the dark side is like cancer that eats at you.  You are truly in balance when you are healthy.  I see the Jedi as more of a religion of the light side.  Not the light side itself.  



#4
The Choc

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I don't see it as a "gray Jedi". I don't want Rey as some badass anti hero.

 

In Star Wars certain emotions or feelings are "dark side". Fear, anger... We are all familiar with it. However is it reasonable or realistic to expect a human being to not be afraid or angry ever? Ofcourse not. Maybe the reason Anakin couldn't control his anger at the sand people is because he was never allowed to even be angry at anyone and had no idea what to do when that emotion surfaced. Hell Yoda tells Anakin to let his friend die and be happy about it. That's not real advice. No one would listen to that advice other than some weirdo who was brainwashed from birth.

 

When I say learn the dark side I don't mean go around force lightening people all over the place. What I'm saying is that instead of  basically trying to reject those emotions from yourself (which isn't really possible and really takes away your humanity in alot ways) you have to learn to deal with those feelings, use them in a positive way, and not let them consume you.

 

Ofcourse in Star Wars those emotions are "dark side" so Rey would have to learn to use the dark side to do this. But what Im saying is really more about controlling those emotions inside of you rather than like wearing a black hood and cape and doing badass things. 


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#5
The Choc

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And like I said this isn't a prediction. Just something in the Vanity Fair article kinda made me thing. The author said basically "weve seen what happens when the bad guys are killed and blown up. They basically come back with a different name 30 years later. To really win the good guys need to do more than blow up the bad guys." Now this could have just been speculation from the writer but even if it is, I think there is some truth to it.

 

If JJ really wants us to accept this as an overall climax to the trilogy of trilogies then it has to be more than the good guys winning a battle over the bad guys. There has to be something that makes it feel different and lasting, or at least there should be. This is just one way I think that could be accomplished. 



#6
Tank

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That Yoda moment you mention-- he tells both Anakin and later Luke that he should sacrifice his friends for the greater good, and yet Yoda chose to save Obi-Wan and Anakin over stopping Dooku.

This could be bad scripting on George's part, or further evidence that Yoda is indeed fallable.

#7
DANA-kin Skywalker

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Its best not to think too hard about all this. The whole idea of balance in the force is ambiguous and has never been explored or fleshed out thus far. All weve got are a few lines that require a lot of conjecture. In fact some of these ideas are contradictory: in TLJ its all darkness rises and light to meet it but in AOTC darkness is a shroud and Jedis ability to use the force is diminished.

Im not keeping up with other Ep9 so I dont know what that movie has said about anything, but I doubt well get any explanation that makes tons of sense.

And I really don't understand the concept of grey Jedi. I always thought if you used the force with good intentions you were light and if you had evil intentions you could fall to the dark side. I dont consider Luke a grey Jedi, and he really rode the morality line to get what he wanted in ROTJ. Shooting lightning at people isnt more or less moral than stabbing someone with a lightsaber. Its all about the hearts intentions.

#8
Odine

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I don't see it as a "gray Jedi". I don't want Rey as some badass anti hero.
 
In Star Wars certain emotions or feelings are "dark side". Fear, anger... We are all familiar with it. However is it reasonable or realistic to expect a human being to not be afraid or angry ever? Ofcourse not. Maybe the reason Anakin couldn't control his anger at the sand people is because he was never allowed to even be angry at anyone and had no idea what to do when that emotion surfaced. Hell Yoda tells Anakin to let his friend die and be happy about it. That's not real advice. No one would listen to that advice other than some weirdo who was brainwashed from birth.
 
When I say learn the dark side I don't mean go around force lightening people all over the place. What I'm saying is that instead of  basically trying to reject those emotions from yourself (which isn't really possible and really takes away your humanity in alot ways) you have to learn to deal with those feelings, use them in a positive way, and not let them consume you.
 
Ofcourse in Star Wars those emotions are "dark side" so Rey would have to learn to use the dark side to do this. But what Im saying is really more about controlling those emotions inside of you rather than like wearing a black hood and cape and doing badass things. 

I've said as much repeatedly here too, in the past. I like the idea. The acknowledgement and acceptance of fear, anger and even hate as human emotions that have purpose, and while dangerous can be useful. By utilising them and then rising above them rather than revelling in them (the dark way). To ignore these emotions or banish them or suppress them is just as dangerous as revelling in them. Whenever I have bought these ideas up in the past they are always met with resistance. But I'm with you on this Choc, and think it would make a great theme for ep 9.

Edited by Odine, 30 May 2019 - 11:13 PM.


#9
Odine

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Here's two somewhat contrary thoughts--

1. While I dislike the "gray Jedi" concept, I've always maintained that Luke followed the beat of his own drum. He went against what Yoda and Obi-Wan told him, but was ultimately right with the path he chose. So if his thoughts on the force differ from the PT era Jedi, I think that tracks.

2. I'm a broken record with this-- but Star Wars is mythic storytelling. It's black hats and white hats, good versus evil. Shades of gray is something not normally entertained. Rogue One played with it, but even it ultimately went for redemption for even gray actions in favor of being a white hat. So to that, I don't see a Star Wars hero using darkness for their advantage any more than Luke or Vader did.


I get the mythic storytelling in the Jungian tradition. And yeah star wars (the OT) tries to follow it closely. The ST has deviated from this and is one of the reasons it isn't as good. But there isn't anything that requires the HERO in the mythic tradition to maintain an unrealistically flawless sense of morality and purity. You can still follow a mythic character archetype and have moral and ethical complexity. Look at Mad Max fury road. Max is an animal and his journey follows the Jungian mythic archetype more successfully that Rey or the ST does.
I know it predates Jung, but none the less it would have been influential on Jung, the Iliad (or Odyssey) is pretty morally questionable at times. Odysseus does some pretty sketchy things like murdering all his wife's suitors when he gets home.

Star Wars moral simplicity, the black and white, good Vs evil of it comes more from being a product of American cinema than Jung. Or from the desire for it to be basically a fairytale for families. But if we look at the origins of fairy tales they are hella dark and questionable. With good reason, they are cautionary tales with dire consequences. It's only since the 20th century that these tales have been sanitized.

Now I'm NOT advocating Star Wars become an edgelord (KYLO Ren anyone?) fest of anti heroes and an orgy of moral ambiguity. I'm am willing to be open, however, to the idea that perhaps Star Wars might provide more interesting story telling if it moved away from such broad simple strokes that worked for it in the past. The world isn't simple anymore. Kids aren't simple anymore. Everything is fast, complex and changing... including what is acceptable and what isn't, what is ethical and what isn't.

Rey having ownership of her feelings of fear, anger and yes even hatred is an important lesson.. one that I think is more relevant today than ever. And to do it justice some smaller brushes and a slightly more varied pallette is needed than black, white and a house brush.
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#10
Filthy Jawa

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Alls I know is, having a cool theory about how the story could or should go is a surefire way to make yourself hate the next movie when you finally see it.

But if Choc's basic theory turns out to be the way it goes, I'd be okay with it.

#11
Odine

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At this point I'm going in with no expectations and just want to be entertained. I like theories for the fun of it, but I've kind of given up investing my heart in star wars now. It's just the avengers in space now to me.

#12
The Choc

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I'll come up with 5 ideas that run counter to this before the movie comes out anyway, so yeah having an idea that doesn't come to fruition won't affect my enjoyment of the movie. 


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