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Avengers 1 quetion - Loki


16 replies to this topic

#1
Brando

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Marvel confirmed that Loki was controlled by the Mind Stone during The Avengers. He's obviously already a villain based on behavior both before and after, eventually turning into more of a hero after Frigga died. My question is, when did he become free?

As I'm rewatching, it struck me that by the end of the movie when he says he's ready for a drink, it seems quite different from the rest of the movie.  More human, less angry and more like the regular Loki.  But he also just had his ass handed to him, and his allies either destroyed or cut off. 

 

What do you think?  Or do you stand with the "if it's not shown it isn't real? which is my normal stance?  I'm not sure exactly where I stand in this case, because Loki is different in this one, using subterfuge and illusion less than direct attack.



#2
Dark Wader

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Im in the not real until its confirmed on screen. I dont like the idea that he was just under mind control, prefer to think he just teamed up with Thanos to get back at Odin and was just way over his head.

#3
Brando

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I tend towards if it happened, it was more of a minor push. Subtly feeding his anger and feeling of inadequacy. Everything that happened was fully Loki, but with slightly stronger feelings.

#4
zambingo

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I dont think things have to be on screen or in a chapter for something to have happened. I think there is certain amount of things that audiences can accept as happening off-screen or between chapters etc. However for that to be successful I think the writers have to do enough of whatever on screen or in the chapters to imply whatever supposedly happened off-screen could in fact have happened. The level to how successful a writer was in this is certainly subjective, but never-the-less that subjectivity doesnt defeat the point here.

eg. In the Princess Bride we never see Westley get trained in swordplay and pirating, we know he did though by the fact he can fence so well and is the Dread Pirate Roberts. The writer also has Westley relate a moment from this period as a story within the story to reinforce all that off-screen/between chapter stuff had happened. Oh and spoilers for Princess Bride, I guess. Sorry. ;-)

In regards to Loki, I think it is feasible that he was under the influence of the Mind Stone, but I think whatever it did was really only heighten what he already was or planning to do. Basically Id look at it like a bad dude drinking alcohol, hes already a bad dude, now hes just without inhibitions. Also the Mind Stone, just by the implications of its name, could be enough to justify not being explicitly told there was influencing going on.

Afterthought:

Another eg. Lukes Green Lightsaber. We never see Luke create his green lightsaber. Vader explicitly highlights that Luke created it, but can we believe that Luke could? What did the writers establish that could help us believe this? When we meet Luke in ANH he is in charge of maintaining the machines on his Uncles farm, fixing the droids etc. We also see him do stuff with his X-Wing in ESB. These things dont mean he has the engineering prowess to create a lightsaber, but it does imply he has mechanical skills. In addition we know he receives however much and whatever content of training while on Dagobah. So again, its subjective whether enough was there, but there are logical things in Lukes story that allows for him to suddenly have a new lightsaber and for us to just be told he created it without us seeing him create it nor get explicit instruction on how to.

#5
Metropolis

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Marvel says he was under control of the mind stone? Weak. Makes more sense for Loki too be doing it on his own. If he came out from under its control, it would have been when Hulk rag dolled him.

#6
Brando

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The difference between The Princess Bride and, for example, this or JK Rowling is that The Princess Bride did show it on screen and talked about it. We know he was trained by his predecessor, and we know he's a great swordsman because we see it. We don't see Loki being controlled, or anything that really points to it, and we don't see anything that Rowling talks about. They're completely separate from the official sources.

#7
zambingo

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Thats true, but we do see that the Mind Stone has powers and we do know its called the Mind Stone and we do see it affect Banner (I think it was, been awhile), so there is stuff in the film to imply it affects people.

#8
Brando

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Yeah, there's a scene where all the Avengers are arguing and the stone glows. But it acted by nudging what was already there, instead of completely taking over like it did with Hawkeye and the scientist. I'm thinking that if it was working on Loki, it was doing the same. Loki wanted to rule, and wanted to prove he was better than Thor. So it wouldn't take much to convince him, but just some gentle nudging.

But I think that you're also fine in considering it canon that it was 100% Loki, unless it is expressly stated on screen. Actually the language backs that it was influence rather than control.

Arriving at the Sanctuary through a wormhole caused by the Bifrost, Loki met the Other, ruler of the ancient race of extraterrestrials the Chitauri, and Thanos. Offering the God of Mischief dominion over his brothers favorite realm Earth, Thanos requested the Tesseract in return. Gifted with a Scepter that acted as a mind control device, Loki would be able to influence others. Unbeknownst to him, the Scepter was also influencing him, fueling his hatred over his brother Thor and the inhabitants of Earth.


And he obviously was willing to work with Thanos before he got the stone, so that's a thing.

It really doesn't make sense for Thanos to give up the mind stone, though, given his goal in Infinity War. If you want to kill half the universe and need an item to do it, why send it off with the guy who has no allegiance to anyone but himself? And send it into battle? Seems reckless.
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#9
Darth Krawlie

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Well, it wasnt the mind stone at all until Age of Ultron retconned it into it
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#10
Brando

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To correct myself, apparently it's the space stone. Which makes more sense. It was used to open a space portal, and Thanos determined that Earth was worthy of conquest. Maybe he had some idea that the Avengers/humanity could stop him?

#11
Brando

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Well, it wasnt the mind stone at all until Age of Ultron retconned it into it


I've never seen a real answer to that. I know it wasn't in Captain America, but it kinda seemed like they didn't really know how far they were going at that point.

But, regardless, I'm more interested in in-universe than thinking about the real world process.

#12
Darth Krawlie

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Tesseract is the space stone, the scepter is the mind stone
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#13
Brando

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Your right. In the movie they say it's powered by the Tesseract, which is why I got confused.

#14
Brando

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But that's SHIELD, so they didn't know what they were up against.

#15
Tank

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Afterthought:

Another eg. Lukes Green Lightsaber. We never see Luke create his green lightsaber. Vader explicitly highlights that Luke created it, but can we believe that Luke could? What did the writers establish that could help us believe this? When we meet Luke in ANH he is in charge of maintaining the machines on his Uncles farm, fixing the droids etc. We also see him do stuff with his X-Wing in ESB. These things dont mean he has the engineering prowess to create a lightsaber, but it does imply he has mechanical skills. In addition we know he receives however much and whatever content of training while on Dagobah. So again, its subjective whether enough was there, but there are logical things in Lukes story that allows for him to suddenly have a new lightsaber and for us to just be told he created it without us seeing him create it nor get explicit instruction on how to.


https://youtu.be/_ayT0EZwbks
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#16
Brando

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Again, the difference is that the audience knows that Luke has the skills because we're told. Nobody ever mentions anything with Loli being influenced, note do we see the Sceptre doing it, the way we see the others..


Edit 1:
If there was a single line or a single shot showing it wasn't all Loki, it'd be different and not worth discussing. But there isn't anything. There's the fact that Loki is acting more openly than normal, and is obviously more villainous. But he also seems to have met Thanos and agreed with the plan at least somewhat before receiving the Sceptre. So it maybe wasn't doing it that well.

Also, is it possible that Thanos didn't realize at the time that it was one of the Infinity Stones?

Edit 2:
Rey is another example. People might not like it, but we know she's super strong in the Force and badass because the movies show it. We don't need the full backstory, but it'd be weird if she was just a random scavenger who did nothing impressive and then a decade later Lucasfilm added that she's stronger in the Force than anyone else ever.
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#17
zambingo

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I knew that lightsaber scene existed, but I think thats the first time Ive seen it. Thanks, Tank!



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