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So....The Mandalorian


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Calm down Karen.

JFC you babies, it's nightly. We fight about star wars.

wtf I hate this thread now

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Why is the answer to a perceived problem always to go to the extreme opposite? ‘The left isn’t getting the job done, we need the extreme right!’

More often (always) the right answer is to meet somewhere in the middle, but reactors gotta react. 
 

I totally see your point about all the fan service moments. Personally I like some of it and some of it just strikes the wrong notes for me as well. But someone with no sense of Star Wars would be a disaster. That’s crazy. 
 

Also I don’t think all the things you mentioned are just fan service. Dave Filoni further developing Ahsoka’s or Bo Katan’s story is not the same as Ponda Baba and Dr. Evazan popping up in Rogue One. 

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My point isnt that there shouldn't be people making shows that love Star Wars and grew up on it and everything. Certainly there should be shows and movies made by people like that. My point is that if they are going to produce this much content it would be cool to also see the other end of the spectrum. Not that one has to replace the other. 

And I agree its not fan service but just some of the appeal, not even most of, but some of it was the appearances of other characters. Really though once you go to Luke Skywalker there is nowhere else to go on that front. At the same time people get off on crossovers, its alot of why Marvel is so popular. I remember in the early days of Marvel how people would freak "OMG they showed Thors Hammer at the end...". I never got that appeal, it was really just a commercial for the next movie. Which we already knew was happening. 

In the end most of these characters were used well on the Mandalorian and thats all you can really ask for. HOwever if Mando had just run into some other random Jedi with no history it doesn't affect the story being told here. 

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2 hours ago, Filthy Jawa said:

It seems incredibly generous to George to give him any credit for these good things we see in the Filoniverse. I mean, sure he created the universe, we can’t deny that, but the creativity here is all Dave’s. 

The man has talent, no doubt, but when you see his interviews, quite frequently the conversation centers around how he translated an idea Lucas had into something palatable for the audience. He has unique ideas, as well, of course. It just seems like he understands that those ideas have to tie into the larger narrative, or they are largely irrelevant (at least in the contexts he has worked in thus far), unless they seamlessly integrate with the existing narrative. I think the true measure of his creativity will reveal itself fully once all constraints are removed and he is asked to work in a section of the galaxy far far away that doesn't tie into the Skywalker saga so directly.

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1 hour ago, Darth Kid said:

The man has talent, no doubt, but when you see his interviews, quite frequently the conversation centers around how he translated an idea Lucas had into something palatable for the audience.

He does say those things. I’ve always thought he was playing the game right. He throws some credit to George and pays tribute to him in doing so. Otherwise he comes off as ungrateful and arrogant. But honestly I think it’s like 90% him (or more).
Maybe I’m wrong. 

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I know alot of people are lauding Filoni for filling in gaps left by the movies, but the thing is there is supposed to be gaps in the story from the movies. Just look how they are told, with one exception there are significant time jumps between episodes. In a couple cases the time jumps are decades. Ofcourse stuff happens in this time that is not covered by the movies. Look at it, the time from TPM through TROS is what about? 65 years? And this 65 years is covered by what? 19 hours of movie? The gaps allow freedom of storytelling because events referenced in the gaps can be a bit vague. The gaps arent a bug they are a feature. 

 This is probably why I prefer Rebels to The Clone Wars. Rebels tells a story that obviously is connected to overall story but is mostly separate and with different characters. While The Clone Wars is literally trying to fill us in on whats happened with the main characters of the movies. Its kinda why I was lukewarm on the Obi Wan show, although Ive mostly come around. In a way I don't want to be shown exactly what happened with him in those years. 

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Filoni is a talented guy although for the most part I dont like alot of the things he does with the Force. Even on Mando the idea of some Temple that can like send out a signal to other Jedi throughout the Galaxy? I don't like the idea at all. There are things on Rebels I felt the same way about. 

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Re: Luke here reinforcing TLJ

I get what people are saying how this scene mirrors Vader in Rogue One, it’s meant to. I also understand how it feels like it reinforces this detached /or egotistical Luke that Rian decided to portray.

However, on the flip side...

Luke here is destroying robots. Robots whose only purpose is to dominate and kill. Vader was murdering people for having political ideas that were different than his own.

Also, Luke warns that Grogu needs training, however he doesn’t snatch him and leave. Luke shares a dialogue, unsaid, with Grogu and then explains that Grogu just wants permission to go with him. So while we could say, well we never actual heard what Grogu said and Luke could be saying whatever he wants, the intended impression appears to be that all of this exchange was mutual and wanted. This exchange also displays Luke as heeding the needs and wants of those he’s dealing with.

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Grogu is far too young to make such a decision and Mando wouldn't know the history of the Jedi. Luke is the one who should know better. I don't think anyone is saying Luke is a kidnapper. The Jedi werent either, Im sure the children were handed over willingly and it was seen as an honor and a duty to do so. Luke though should know that Grogu's family is more important than his powers. I guess maybe he doesn't learn that till his nephew, who also left his family to train with Luke, turns evil on him.

Its not a coincidence that the 2 Jedi who end up being the heroes were not taken from the families. Luke's family was murdered before he decided to leave with Ben, he actually chose his family over going to train as a Jedi before they were killed. And Rey who was (ughhhh) Palpatines granddaughter and really had no family and was living in isolation.

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I feel as though you have made a leap in logic regarding Grogu’s ability to choose that is directly opposed by the story as it has been displayed.

Grogu acts childish, sure, and as far as we know he’s only three (fifty-three at least). However there could be a lot of leeway for his actions in regards to his species, his trauma (trauma produces all sorts of behaviors in people of all ages and mental acuity), in addition to his communication ability with others.

Ahsoka, arguably with much more training and experience than Luke at this point, was very comfortable conversing with and understanding Grogu. Ahsoka was comfortable with his choice to be with Mando at that time, even encouraging it, which displays her understanding and comfort level with Grogu’s ability to choose.

You’ve also made a false statement in regards to two Jedi heroes being those that weren’t taken from families. Both of those characters are ripped away from their loved ones whether literal or circumstance. Also the history of the Jedi as displayed by the Prequels show padawans are acquired in their youth, which further debases your assertion that there were only 2 Jedi heroes that weren’t taken from their families.

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Wait, you are comparing nameless Jedi heroes to Luke and Rey who are the heroes of the story. C;mon, thats insane. Luke and Rey lost their families and then chose to go train as Jedi after. This is different than children who are too young to make the decision. Also the 2 Jedi who fell to the darkside, Anakin and Ben Solo, were taken from their families at ages where they were also too young to choose.

Luke and Rey when first given the chance to go on adventure both turn it down. Luke wants to stay with his aunt and uncle. Rey wants to go back to Jakku to wait for her family. That reluctance, that choosing their families over adventure is not a coincidence. 

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The story isn;t about them. They are important characters to various extents but they are supporting players. Its not about them. 

What you are saying its just taking it too literal. The Jedi existed for 1000 generations so I guess everything they did was just great, it was one glitch with Anakin. Everything is fine, the Jedi should continue as they always have I guess.

Thats obviously not the story though. The story is how the Jedi failed,all the Jedi who existed inside that old structure are part of that failure. What happened before Anakin and TPM is just backstory. It doesnt matter in term of the story being told. 

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You’re moving the goal posts to cling to a false assumption about family trauma absent characters and their ability to be heroes, in addition to your assertion that Luke and Rey weren’t “taken” as being at best completely and utterly incorrect. ;-)

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I think Choc is right in saying Rey and Luke both choose to stay home at first and then get thrown down a path that leads to them becoming Jedi heroes.

Which is different than what we’re told about the generations of Jedi taken from their families as children to train. 
 

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Its really part of the problem with Star Wars in some ways and how people look at it. The story is really about just a few characters. Id say Anakin, Luke, Rey and Kylo. Everyone else in some ways is in support of those 4. What happened to Obi Wan as a kid is irrelevant to the morals and themes in the story. 

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The only Jedi of the past that we have seen be “taken”, Anakin and Grogu (we didn’t see with Ben but it was implied as such), were granted permission by the parent and the child had desire to become a Jedi. This is a pattern followed by Luke in this finale.

As for whether or not being “taken” from a family produces failures would appear to fly in the face of generations of implied history for this fictional universe. While a person’s circumstances certainly impact them, people makes choices that push them down to the Dark Side. Responsibility for one’s own actions is a key message in Star Wars.

Also the series shows that these padawans experience a familial lifestyle not unlike being adopted, which is far less a negative term as taken. In addition all Jedi are taught to let go and leave attachment behind, while embracing compassion and knowledge.

Finally, Choc, it is intellectually dishonest to say that whatever happened to Obi-Wan becoming a padawan is irrelevant when you are at the same time saying whatever happened to other Jedi becoming padawans is relevant to your argument.

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LOL, its amazing how someone who is such a big fan of Star Wars doesn't actually see what the story is about. You say Jedi are taught to leave attachment behind. What saves the day in both the OT and ST? The main characters attachments to their families. Lukes attachment to his father, Vaders attachment to his son. Thats why they win. Ben's attachment to Rey and what sets him on that path is a vision from his father, not from his Jedi master. The story is about how attachment to the ones you love are what can save and redeem us. It literally flies in the face of what the Jedi teach. The Jedi were not evil but they failed. Their old philosophies and teachings were wrong and inadequate. 

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The implied definition of attachment that the Jedi warn against, as displayed by the saga, is ownership combined with unwillingness to understand that life happens (in all it’s joy and pain), and that imposing your will on life and things is foolhardy. Attachment as in familial relations has been shown as fine and understandable. Jedi are shown considering others as fathers, brothers, mothers, sisters, friends and more.

Furthermore Luke and Rey do not impose their will on Anakin or Ben. Their attachment isn’t based in ownership, their attachment is born in compassion. They do not force Anakin or Ben to return to the light. They provide the opportunity for the other to choose the light again.

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You are too attached to the story that you cant see that the Jedi were so wrong in so much of what they did. You simply cannot accept it. When its a plainly obvious. Yoda himself talks about how the Jedi are losing their way. Luke is able to get the key info of his parentage because he does against what both his Jedi masters are telling him to do. 

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Yoda and Obi-Wan’s methods with Luke are questionable, no one is perfect nor have I suggested they were. However Yoda and Obi-Wan both note to Luke that they did what they did not to deceive him, but because he wasn’t ready to hear it. Luke’s impulsiveness and ideas of heroism that almost lead him to doom in Empire is the position that Obi-Wan and Yoda suggest they were trying to guide him away from.

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Again, Im not saying the Jedi were evil or had any ill intents. They just made massive mistakes. Anakin chooses to leave his family and go be a Jedi. Qui Gon doesnt force him. But Anakin is 9 years old. He cant make that choice. Its the same with Grogu. I think we can probably safely assume that Ben was also not forced to go with Luke to train. Both him and Anakin fall. Who brings both back? Anakins family, his son. Ben;s family, his dad. Not their Jedi Masters. I dont like TROS but having it be a memory of his father, rather than Luke's ghost was the right choice. 

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1 hour ago, Filthy Jawa said:

I think Choc is right in saying Rey and Luke both choose to stay home at first and then get thrown down a path that leads to them becoming Jedi heroes.

Which is different than what we’re told about the generations of Jedi taken from their families as children to train. 
 

Thank you for agreeing with me but in reality its not a matter of agreeing, its what happens in the story. When Obi Wan first offers Luke the chance to go to Alderaan, when he first gets that call to adventure he turns it down. He says he can only take Obi Wan to Anchorhead, he cant go. This isnt there by accident. Its important. He only agrees to go when his family is taken away from him by the bad guys. He even says "there is nothing for me here." 

Its similar with Rey, she constantly wants to go back to Jakku. She is trying to avoid this call to adventure. She doesn't want it. Just like with Luke, its important and not by accident.

With Anakin when he is first offered it he is excited. "I get to go with you on your starship!". Sure he is sad about leaving his mother but in the end he chooses going on adventure over his family. And just like Luke and Rey refusing the call at first the fact that Anakin takes the call immediately is important. That difference matters. 

Its really basic fantasy story telling. The hero is nearly always reluctant. Look at Harry Potter. When Hagrid first tells him he is a wizard Harry thinks hes made a mistake. Hes not like "hell yeah lets go". Hes like on you must be wrong. Contrast that with the flashbacks to Dumbledore visiting Tom Riddle in the orphanage. When Albus tells Tom he is a wizard Tom is basicaly like "hell yeah I knew it, when can I get to school". This is important and its similar to Star Wars and the difference between how those who become heroes and how those who become villains accept their power or their call to adventure is important. If the characters didn't act like this the story would feel wrong to us because it has to be this way.

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In regards to Yoda destroying the Tree and by implication to Luke the Jedi books in the sequel trilogy.

The context here would seem to suggest that Yoda isn’t telling Luke the old ways were wrong, rather that Luke’s (and perhaps the Jedi before him) clinging to those teachings as the only way is what was wrong. It would appear to be another reinforcement of attachment as ownership, and the unwillingness to bend. Luke (and again perhaps the Jedi before him) looked at those teachings almost as absolute, with rigidity, and defining their failures through not being able to apply the knowledge in those texts to students. Perhaps making the message that Yoda was telling Luke was that his failure was forgetting he was taught differently, and yet he clung to words in books (in addition to Yoda suggesting that just because someone fails that then doesn’t make them worthless). In a way, this message here also appears to mirror modern educational concepts of how to reach individual students.

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The Mandalorian isn't about Grogu's journey to being a Jedi. It's about Mando's journey to finding himself and developing an identity after knowingly becoming a faceless, emotionless, hunter/solider.

While Star Wars is stacked full of characters, there is a very precise POV to each entry, and while there are many overlapping themes and ideas, everything must serve these POVs,m which means the rules are going to get bent more often than not.

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