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So....The Mandalorian


Filthy Jawa
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And I have zero problem with you not liking the Luke we got in TLJ. My issue becomes when you, or anyone, sort of tries to justify it by saying its not whats set up or its not in his character. I just don't think thats true. At the same time your opinion doesnt need to be justified. If you didn't enjoy Luke in the movie, you didn't enjoy it and thats fine. 

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Re: TLJ and bad Star Wars woes

I think that the biggest problems with post-RotJ Star Wars are Luke and Leia. This is why I said prior to the sequel trilogy that one of them should be dead as the catalyst for the sequel trilogy plot starting. I originally pegged Leia, because well... Carrie seemed less likely to be able to pull off any sort of Star Warsian heroism than Mark (a thought about her physical and emotional issues). But after seeing The Force Awakens I was convinced and said so that Luke should be dead. Everything after that only cemented that Luke should have been dead.

That said, and back to The Mandalorian, Luke being dead would resolve a lot of fan expectation and angst over where The Last Jedi is in regards to Grogu.

But all of this is just silliness that doesn’t matter at all.

Star Wars is what it is at this point and the writers of this show are now at least doing the best they can with it, and in every likelihood far better than I could think of.

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36 minutes ago, The Choc said:

If you take Luke another level down into his character though it really does match up. Just look at ESB and what Yoda says of him always looking to the horizon and never his mind on where he was and what he was doing. At the time although we do see it as a flaw its like a charming flaw. He is this young, idealistic dreamer who just needs to learn focus. When you take that same character flaw though and put it through the lense of age and tragedy it becomes something different. Instead of looking forward and dreaming he is looking back and despairing. But in both cases his mind is not on the present and what he should be doing. He should be saying "I messed up but that doesnt matter. What matters is the situation now and how I can help, not how we got here." Thats what Luke should do. But that same flaw of not concentrating on the here and now and doing what he needs to do is the same flaw that leads to his isolation in the ST. And I think thats a very true thing for a lot of people. Character traits that can be very positive for people can also be turned to negative. It actually mirrors Anakin whose caring for others could inspire his great acts of heroism but also could be flipped to make him do terrible things to save the person he loved most. 

 

Simply put, that kind of catharsis isn't what I wanted to see in the ST.  I didn't want to see Luke pontificating on past failures.  It's depressing, and like I said earlier, tears down Luke's character.  After a 30+ year break between the movies, I didn't want to see a broken Luke.  I wanted to see Jedi Master Luke coming back and being a savior the Galaxy needed once again. I also wanted to see Luke train a new jedi.  I know you will argue he did,  and he did, but as I said earlier, it was done in a way I felt unsatisfied.  I should not have to do all kinds of mental gymnastics and say to myself, "yeah, positive traits can be future negative traits leading an optimist in youth to become a pessimist in old age".  That is good for other types of stories, but not for something as simple as Star Wars.  After 30+ years, I want to see a Luke I recognize: an optimistic hero who saves the day.  

 

33 minutes ago, The Choc said:

And I have zero problem with you not liking the Luke we got in TLJ. My issue becomes when you, or anyone, sort of tries to justify it by saying its not whats set up or its not in his character. I just don't think thats true. At the same time your opinion doesnt need to be justified. If you didn't enjoy Luke in the movie, you didn't enjoy it and thats fine. 

I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with me, either.  You have a long track record  of stating your appreciation of TLJ.  I get it.  But me saying I don't like TLJ doesn't mean you are wrong for liking TLJ.  Opinion is opinion.  At the end of the day, Star Wars is escapist entertainment to me at least.   I think Disney is finally figuring out there are fans that like different aspects of Star Wars.  Mando is targeted towards fans like me.  Clearly, you got something out of TLJ you liked. I don't know if they will return to the ST era, but if RJ still gets his trilogy, that will likely be something fans like you will appreciate.

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1 hour ago, Spider-Man said:

Re: TLJ and bad Star Wars woes

I think that the biggest problems with post-RotJ Star Wars are Luke and Leia. This is why I said prior to the sequel trilogy that one of them should be dead as the catalyst for the sequel trilogy plot starting. I originally pegged Leia, because well... Carrie seemed less likely to be able to pull off any sort of Star Warsian heroism than Mark (a thought about her physical and emotional issues). But after seeing The Force Awakens I was convinced and said so that Luke should be dead. Everything after that only cemented that Luke should have been dead.

That said, and back to The Mandalorian, Luke being dead would resolve a lot of fan expectation and angst over where The Last Jedi is in regards to Grogu.

But all of this is just silliness that doesn’t matter at all.

Star Wars is what it is at this point and the writers of this show are now at least doing the best they can with it, and in every likelihood far better than I could think of.

Here is my unqualified, opinionated prediction,  I think that however the Mandalorian ends, it will end in a way that does not step on the toes of the ST.  In fact, I think it likely that it will not acknowledge it at all.  Even if this show makes it say, 5 seasons, it is still set some 25-30 years before the ST, giving it plenty of time to play with.  I hope we see Luke, even if it is in the finale, but I would be surprised if anything else ST is referenced at all, because at this stage its possible there isn't even a new jedi order yet.  Or, if there is one, its in its infancy. It would be cool to see a reimagining of sorts of the Thrawn trilogy, but focuses on the Mandalorian characters and what they are doing, in the same way Rebels focused on its characters, during events leading up to ANH.  

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They already are though, clearly the idea that the Empire still exists somewhat in the Outer Rim but the Republic doesnt see it or isn't willing to deal with it is meant to show the situation that allowed the First Order to rise.

I also do think that the experiments done by Gideon will play into Snoke and the Emperor. 

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Thing is, people can lay the blame at RJ’s feet for Luke and subverting expectations but I feel like those criticisms should be all laid on JJ. When the new movies were announced, I’m sure all of us were excited just to see Luke, Leia, Han and Chewie back together again. Not the focus, but back together in some capacity. Obvious fan service? Yes, but possibly the only time where everyone excuses it. 

Instead he subverts the expectation, pretty much writes Luke out of it and kills off Han before we ever have an opportunity to see Ford and Hamill share the screen again. 

So RJ has to pick up off those threads - and the way JJ left Luke, I don’t see any way else it could have been written. Would the Luke we have known from the originals, from the EU, have just abandoned the galaxy letting a super power grow that literally obliterates planets and his own nephew killing his family and close friends? Don’t really see how else you explain that other than Luke is a broken man shut off from the force. 

TLDR; Blame JJ. 

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Luke could have been on the quest like Han said, to find something. Maybe he was looking for a way to bring Ben back to the light without killing him like he felt he had to do— or what sort of happened with Vader.

Maybe Luke was just out there on his own righting wrongs while on that quest.

Kinda like Mando.

Which this thread is about...

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20 minutes ago, Tank said:

Luke could have been on the quest like Han said, to find something. Maybe he was looking for a way to bring Ben back to the light without killing him like he felt he had to do— or what sort of happened with Vader.

Maybe Luke was just out there on his own righting wrongs while on that quest.

Kinda like Mando.

Which this thread is about...

...was about. 

old man laugh GIF

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15 hours ago, Tank said:

Luke could have been on the quest like Han said, to find something. Maybe he was looking for a way to bring Ben back to the light without killing him like he felt he had to do— or what sort of happened with Vader.

Maybe Luke was just out there on his own righting wrongs while on that quest.

Kinda like Mando.

Which this thread is about...

I just don't think those would have worked as well based on what was set up in TFA. But yes sorry, won't harp on it. 

On topic - apparently, and unsurprisingly, Tim Zahn confirmed he knew nothing about the Thrawn name drop. Not sure why people would think he would have known but I guess it also confirms no grander story in play with his new novels. 

I guess they're not going to drop his name without an appearance at some point but not a huge fan of Thrawn entering the scene on this show, aside from the obvious stuff in the Thrawn thread but also, I don't particularly want to see this become the live action Rebels sequel. I'm probably the only one here but I want them to slow the pace back down for a bit after this one. 

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I want the Grogu to age like a Gremlin soon. He is already just Gizmo, and eats like Gizmo’s offspring. I would not want to see like a literal dark gremlin transformation, but it might be neat to establish that Yodas grow a chrysalis to age to their next stage. So if Grogu is like an approximation of a human through 2 and 4 years old (the range he appears to act), then he could chrysalis to like 6 to 8 years.

Once hatched this slightly older Grogu advances the style of the interaction between Mando and Grogu from Lone Wolf and Cub to Batman and a younger Robin.

This would allow for speech, talk backs, vocalized thoughts, ponderings. Another geeky reference would put Grogu at a stage similar to the child in Enemy Mine. Grogu could then be this age range for like another fifty human years. That then conceivably eases any issues with the sequel trilogy, he’s still a kid, off doing his growing up stuff elsewhere. Maybe even opens up the idea of a teenaged Grogu being the center of a new film trilogy way on down the line (possibly even long long past Rey’s present and probably her senior citizen years... which resolves touching that landmine).

The chrysalis stage, depending on the design being not disgusting, could also create an opportunity for merch. Think about Disney’s Dinosaur film and the Aladar egg plush which could be turned inside out to then reveal Aladar. The visual here also calls back to Grogu’s floating pram and its merch. The in-story uncertainty of what is happening from Mando’s perspective could provide for amusing scenarios, a mystery to occupy him for a little arc. Perhaps have him use a backpack for the chrysalis-egg during this, which creates more merch opportunity. In-story wise Mando is committed to Grogu at this point as well, so it is conceivable he continues to care for and try to figure out what is going on with Grogu during this new chrysalis stage.

This type of aging could also slide into Yoda’s perspective of not being crude matter, but actually that existence is ethereal, is thought, free energy. It’s a mindset and perspective ingrained into the species’ experiences of dramatic physical changes through chrysalis. The chrysalis concept and these dramatic changes could also mirror Mando’s growth as a character, gaining confidence in who he is away from just mindlessly regurgitating religious dogma etc. I dunno, just shooting ideas.

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Grogu is supposed to be 50, right? Yoda died at 900, and said he trained Jedi for 800 years. It doesn't have to be exact, of course, but Grogu's got a LOT of growing up to do in 50ish years. That sounds weird to say but if he's a toddler at 50, that's a big leap to go from toddler to adolescent to adult to master in another 50.

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I agree, it’s why I proposed the chrysalis concept.

Maybe the species would exist in these stages, maybe even fifty year stages until adulthood. So Grogu right now could either be in his first fifty, probably better as that, or in his second fifty. The next stage would also be fifty years, or less years whatever works best to keep Yoda’s age logical. Whatever period of time it is Grogu then essentially is existing as an eight year old for that time, which could take him out of viability for the sequel trilogy (which we already know he wasn’t in anyway). The process could have him ready to pop up in a post sequel trilogy story where he’s now in that teen / young adult stage for fifty or whatever years. With that stage probably being before one last chrysalis into final adulthood.

Maybe the chrysalis stage is when Grogu’s memory goes dark. Maybe the pram was an artificial chrysalis that controlled his age or kept him asleep or whatever and that then became broken during whatever that leads up to the first Mandalorian episode.

In a way, with this species chrysalis thing combined with the established longevity, Grogu could then be the C-3PO and R2-D2 connector character for Disney’s conceivable far future projects.

Regarding the chrysalis, it might be neat if the internal process has intermittent electrical things happening. Like little force lightnings spiraling around. This would light up the chrysalis every now and again allowing us to see a sleeping/changing being. Amusing things could be done here, like a sonogram where us human parents usually imagine what the unborn kid is doing at that moment... with like an arm covering the kid’s eyes in like a dab or ugh let me sleep like position, the ears could be seen similar to how a butterfly’s wings can be seen etc. Maybe the next flash has the kid flipped upside down. The next with a twitchy leg.

Before each chrysalis stage happens the species could get super hungry, which ties in both with that toddler like behavior we see with Grogu but with this concept now it is also because he is literally prepping. Then the species could get super sleepy, which could be alarming for Mando who like has no idea about this, then boom the next morning a chrysalis.

I know this is a wild and wordy idea, but almost all of it could be shown and or explained in moments, causally even. I mean, Gremlins did it in less than two minutes and one scene.

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If they age Grogu up, the show is over. Sorry.

It's Lone Wolf and Cub, not Lone Wolf and teenage alien.

It's like Sam and Diane getting together, or Fonzie jumping a shark, or Mork having a baby Jonathan Winters, or when Roseanne won the lottery. 

It would change the core DNA of the show, and when you do that, 9 times out of 10 the show fails as a result. 

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On 12/1/2020 at 11:24 AM, Darth Krawlie said:

Grogu is supposed to be 50, right? Yoda died at 900, and said he trained Jedi for 800 years. It doesn't have to be exact, of course, but Grogu's got a LOT of growing up to do in 50ish years. That sounds weird to say but if he's a toddler at 50, that's a big leap to go from toddler to adolescent to adult to master in another 50.

To put it in perspective, Grogu was born the same year as Anakin. At least according to Wookiepedia.

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I absolutely understand how a series can tank, totally no pun intended, with changes to the premise.

I was just shooting out a wild idea about Grogu since people were moaning about people still talking about TLJ.

The Grogu idea was spurred by the most recent episode suggesting he has blank areas of memory, is still a child after 50 years, and that Mando should try to train or at the very least nurture his Force sensitivity. Given training denotes growth, I ran with the idea of accelerating Grogu from the approx 2-4 year old age range up to 6-8 years old. The teenager note was an idea about an appearance of Grogu post Rise of Skywalker, not in relation to this series.

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For all we know he was frozen in carbonite for 48 of the 50 years. Like Krawlie said-- you want Star Wars to fall apart? Try to figure out details like this!

Also-- Yoda liked to lie and exaggerate as much as Obi-Wan.

This is another great example of how the EU ruins stuff. Rando lines and asides are taken and used to extrapolate factual things.

One of my favorites is when Watto looked at the holo of Amidala's ship and called the design "Nubian." One of the EU books or cutaway guides or something spun out some big ol story about how the planet Nubia, or the Nubian people, built things favored by the planet Naboo.... never once confirming that "Nubian" was basically meaning to say "Nabooian."

That said, you'd think they would learn their lessons and know if they throwaway a line like "the child is 50 years old" that nerds are going to do the math and extrapolate.

To me, the takeaway is that he was taken from the Jedi temple-- confirming he's not a clone and not a random discovery. Anything beyond that isn't going to be addressed until some crappy book comes out about him a year after the show is cancelled.

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