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So....The Mandalorian


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If you just eat the same food all the time you will never find new food you like. 

And I agree, they are just basically playing it safe. Which is sad for me. Mando is a good show and I do like it, so this isn't a bashing of the show at all, but its capped at "pretty good" for me. Really its not even trying to be more than that. Its just too much "hey this character was in Clone War, this one from Rebels, hey in the background its something from whatever." I could care less about any of that. I wish there were like ZERO easter eggs. They add nothing. 95% of them are a complete waste of time. 

But all of that is ok because its a pretty good show but its never going to go past that and if Star Wars uses this as its template then Star Wars as a whole won't either. The point of story telling isn't to just reward fandom and spoonfeed them stuff you know they will eat up. Thats the opposite of story telling. Storytelling should make you go "holy crap this changes EVERYTHING!". The reason the ESB twist is so great is not because it was surprising its because it turns the 4 hours of movie we've already watched completely on it's head. 

And if you arent doing that then there is no point is telling a story. Now its fine because the show is entertaining enough and thats all I ask. I can't ask for special or great. Still they have no chance of special or great going down this path. 

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I'm just pointing out the fact that they called in the same guys to rehabilitate Star Wars after the ST, as they did after the PT.  Apparently, playing it safe after screwing things up is a recurring theme with Star Wars.  You might disagree, but you are in the vast minority. Otherwise, if there was money in doing things the way you are describing and continuing the ST era, Disney would be doing it.  

 

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2 minutes ago, Zathras said:

I'm just pointing out the fact that they called in the same guys to rehabilitate Star Wars after the ST, as they did after the PT.  Apparently, playing it safe after screwing things up is a recurring theme with Star Wars.  You might disagree, but you are in the vast minority. Otherwise, if there was money in doing things the way you are describing and continuing the ST era, Disney would be doing it.  

 

Star Wars fans CLEARLY want just a bland, safe product. I won't deny that. What those fans don't understand is that what they want now is exactly the opposite of made Star Wars great in the first place. 

I used the example of the twist at the end of ESB being great because it flipped the story on it's head. The same goes for the end of ROTJ. Up to that point the story is essentially Luke having to face and defeat Vader. When Vader turns back it changes what the entire story was about. It changes the entire message and meaning of it. That's why its great. Its why the OT was so special and wasn't just 3 straight movies of good guys beating the bad guys. 

 

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That may be, but you are NEVER going to catch lightning in the bottle for Star Wars, like you did with the OT.  There have been countless movies after that emulated some of those themes.   Literally every scenario has been done for Star Wars since the OT, in comics, TV, movies, CGI cartoons, cartoons, and EU novels (both legends, and current).  The simple fact is there really isn't much that Star Wars can do at this point, that hasn't been done in some form.  Hell, other than pissing people off with mishandling the OT characters (and deconstructing them and rebuilding them as flawed losers to advance the story of the new characters), much of the themes in ST, especially TFA, are simply a variation on what has come before.  

So, basically, what you are arguing for by writing completely different stories that aren't what fans want, is basically turning Star Wars into something it isn't.  That was tried to an extent with the ST, and failed.  Disney didn't buy the Star Wars franchise to push boundaries and do something new.  They bought it to make money. The best way to do that is not to alienate old fans, who many of which, are now watching Star Wars with their kids. 

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In April 1979 how many Star Wars fans would have wanted the good guys to lose, Han to end up frozen in carbonite and Darth Vader to be Lukes dad. The answer is none. 

You are right in that they can't truly catch lightning in a bottle like the OT and do something to truly shock fans in that great of a way. BUt look at the Throne scene in TLJ. Its a perfect playing on what happened in the OT. Its obviously very reminiscint of ROTJ and then even as it goes along it plays out seemingly just like it as Kylo kills Snoke. But then there is that one more little twist that changes it when Kylo didn;t kill Snoke because hes turning back to the light but because he wants to take his place.

Its really a perfect using of whats come before to do something thats different and probably to most people unexpected. But really when you follow the overall breadcrumbs back it makes perfect sense. Anakin always wanted to overthrow the Emperor. Kylo wants to surpass his grandfather. Thats how he does it. 

Thats what Star Wars should try to be. They can't escape the shadow of the OT, so you can either just basically say "hey memba the OT, its awesome" or you can at the very least try to use that shadow to your advantage in a real way.

Its like this: In Rogue One when they come across the pig faced guy from the cantina, thats a total waste of time. When Red and Gold leader show up at the end, thats great because it makes perfect sense theyd be there.

In TFA when Finn picks up the remote from ANH and throws it to the side, complete waste of time. In TLJ when Artoo plays the "help me Obi Wan" message for Luke on the Falcon, thats great because it actually motivates Lukes character and plays a part in the story taking place. 

 

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And like Ive said Im not bashing Mando or some of the other stuff that is more in line with what I seem to be railing against here. I love The Force Awakens. I said when TLJ came out and alot of fans didn't like it as much as I (and many others) did that between movies and tv shows Disney will be putting out alot of Star Wars content and if TLJ wasnt your cup of tea then they probably will at some point put out something that is. 

Personally Disney has put out 5 movies and a tv show. Only one of those six things do I not like and one of them I truly love. So its a really good batting average for me. I enjoy the Mandalorian but its not exactly what Im looking for from Star Wars and thats ok. Hopefully at some point I will get something that is 100% what Id like but if not, thats ok too.

Im certainly not going to be like "fuck Dave Filoni, fuck Jon Favreau" and nonsense like that like the people who didn't like TLJ did to Rian Johnson. Which is just completely sad and pathetic. 

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1 minute ago, Tank said:

There’s a middle ground between giving fans exactly what they want, and completely subverting all expectations. 

But really does TLJ subvert expectations THAT much. I mean Luke being a curmudgeon and not wanting to train Rey, deciding to train her. She goes off with him saying its not a good idea but then he shows up at the end to save the day? Is that really much different that we expected? Is that really that crazy of a departure? 

The fact is it came down to one scene, where he lights his saber while Ben sleeps. Thats it. Certain fans just couldn't accept that Luke wasnt perfect and "gasp" would make that kind of mistake. Thats flat out it because what I described in the first paragraph is pretty much exactly what many fans would have guessed happened and even would have wanted to happen. 

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17 minutes ago, The Choc said:

In April 1979 how many Star Wars fans would have wanted the good guys to lose, Han to end up frozen in carbonite and Darth Vader to be Lukes dad. The answer is none. 

You are right in that they can't truly catch lightning in a bottle like the OT and do something to truly shock fans in that great of a way. BUt look at the Throne scene in TLJ. Its a perfect playing on what happened in the OT. Its obviously very reminiscint of ROTJ and then even as it goes along it plays out seemingly just like it as Kylo kills Snoke. But then there is that one more little twist that changes it when Kylo didn;t kill Snoke because hes turning back to the light but because he wants to take his place.

Its really a perfect using of whats come before to do something thats different and probably to most people unexpected. But really when you follow the overall breadcrumbs back it makes perfect sense. Anakin always wanted to overthrow the Emperor. Kylo wants to surpass his grandfather. Thats how he does it. 

Thats what Star Wars should try to be. They can't escape the shadow of the OT, so you can either just basically say "hey memba the OT, its awesome" or you can at the very least try to use that shadow to your advantage in a real way.

Its like this: In Rogue One when they come across the pig faced guy from the cantina, thats a total waste of time. When Red and Gold leader show up at the end, thats great because it makes perfect sense theyd be there.

In TFA when Finn picks up the remote from ANH and throws it to the side, complete waste of time. In TLJ when Artoo plays the "help me Obi Wan" message for Luke on the Falcon, thats great because it actually motivates Lukes character and plays a part in the story taking place. 

 

I don't disagree with what you are saying here, at all.  There are good Easter eggs and bad ones.  In Mando, I think for the most part, they are done in a clever way.  Mando is NOT perfect, and most of Season 1 was kind of side quest land where we were introduced to the characters.  So far, I think Season 2 is great, and it has caused me to actually be interested in Star Wars again.  Mando just has, for me (especially this season), what I was missing out of the ST (really, TLJ and TROS, TFA is actually a fun movie), and I think that is where a lot of Mando fans are coming from, too.  Where the ST failed the most in my opinion, was not living up to its own lore it created.  The new elements that were set up in TFA, EG who is Snoke  and where did he come from, how the OT cast was doing,who were the Knights of Ren, why exactly did Kylo go dark. who was Rey) either were not answered, or we were given unsatisfying explanations.  Introducing interesting plot twists is one thing, but when you have to advance your new characters' arcs by deconstructing and bringin old fan favorite characters down a peg or 10, and not even bringing your new twists or plot points to a satisfying conclusion, people will naturally want to see a return to form, even if it is familiar.

 

10 minutes ago, Tank said:

There’s a middle ground between giving fans exactly what they want, and completely subverting all expectations. 

Agreed.  And I think we are seeing the beginning of that with Mando so far in season 2.  I don't want to see exactly the same thing over and over.  I guess the way I would describe what I want to see in Star Wars is more like the old adage that history doesn't repeat itself, but often rhymes.  As flawed as the PT was, one of the things I did like was how Anakin's story rhymed with Luke's in the PT, or how Kylo's story rhymed with Anakin's.  However, I think a way subverting expectations could have worked with Kylo, is that if his story ended up being more an inversion of Luke's story.  Luke had the temptation of the dark side, but overcame it.  At least in TFA, we saw Kylo tempted by the light.  It would have been interesting if he were successful in overcoming that temptation, and embracing the evil, which is something neither Anakin (in the end, anyway), nor Luke did.

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8 minutes ago, The Choc said:

But really does TLJ subvert expectations THAT much. I mean Luke being a curmudgeon and not wanting to train Rey, deciding to train her. She goes off with him saying its not a good idea but then he shows up at the end to save the day? Is that really much different that we expected? Is that really that crazy of a departure? 

The fact is it came down to one scene, where he lights his saber while Ben sleeps. Thats it. Certain fans just couldn't accept that Luke wasnt perfect and "gasp" would make that kind of mistake. Thats flat out it because what I described in the first paragraph is pretty much exactly what many fans would have guessed happened and even would have wanted to happen. 

I don't want to derail this thread with another debate on TLJ, but for me the one scene where Luke ignites his lightsaber while Ben is sleeping bothered me less than Luke just deciding to give up and hide from the galaxy. I know Luke is not perfect as he has had moments where he gave into his anger/fear before (Dagobah cave/Death Star II); however, igniting his lightsaber and then deciding not to give into his fear/anger seems to me like a lot less of a big deal than letting his student turn to evil and run amok in the galaxy without doing anything. Igniting his lightsaber is a brief impulse (which we have seen before from Luke). Chickening out and hiding from the galaxy leaving everyone else to deal with the problem he created (or at least was partly responsible for) seems really out of character for Luke, who was generally an idealist in the OT. Especially since the student who turned to evil was Han and Leia's son.

When we discovered Luke was missing in TFA, I assumed it was for a good reason. For me, that expectation was subverted. There were other things that Abrams built up in TFA that Johnson went in a different direction with. For example, there was a big mystery of who were Rey's parents and why did they leave her. Only to have Kylo Ren tell her that her parents were nobody. But in TROS, we learn that Rey's parents were child and child-in-law of Palpatine. However, I guess they decided to stay out of the limelight. So, maybe, what Kylo Ren told Rey was true...from a certain point of view. :D

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Who did they bring down? Luke? The character who overcomes his own doubts and failures to save the day at the end, let all the good guys escape and inspire kids across the Galaxy? Thats bringing him down a peg? I really don't see how you can glorify a character more than this.

And you are right, Kylo should not have been redeemed. Thats a terrible decision. Him a Supreme Leader and main villain on his own is interesting as hell and should have been the story of Episode IX. A total embracing of the darkness. Not even as Vader says in ROTJ that its "too late for him". Its not too late, Kylo knows he COULD turn back if he wanted to but he doesn't want to. Thats how it should have gone. Then at the end, after Rey has defeated him, he sheds a tear and says he is sorry to her. He then dies, but he doesn't experience redemption, only regret. The fact that he understands all his mistakes at the very very end makes it all the sadder for him. Make his story a true tragedy. Thats what Ben Solo's story should have been. 

And that's exactly what TLJ sets up by the way. 

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You're right that Luke does redeem himself in the end of TLJ. However, it still really bothers me that he would run away only because the student that did all the damage was Han and Leia's son. Maybe if it was just a random kid, it wouldn't seem like that big of a deal to me. But he couldn't at least try to save Ben Solo at least for Han and Leia?

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4 minutes ago, Darth Wicket said:

I don't want to derail this thread with another debate on TLJ, but for me the one scene where Luke ignites his lightsaber while Ben is sleeping bothered me less than Luke just deciding to give up and hide from the galaxy. I know Luke is not perfect as he has had moments where he gave into his anger/fear before (Dagobah cave/Death Star II); however, igniting his lightsaber and then deciding not to give into his fear/anger seems to me like a lot less of a big deal than letting his student turn to evil and run amok in the galaxy without doing anything. Igniting his lightsaber is a brief impulse (which we have seen before from Luke). Chickening out and hiding from the galaxy leaving everyone else to deal with the problem he created (or at least was partly responsible for) seems really out of character for Luke, who was generally an idealist in the OT. Especially since the student who turned to evil was Han and Leia's son.

When we discovered Luke was missing in TFA, I assumed it was for a good reason. For me, that expectation was subverted. There were other things that Abrams built up in TFA that Johnson went in a different direction with. For example, there was a big mystery of who were Rey's parents and why did they leave her. Only to have Kylo Ren tell her that her parents were nobody. But in TROS, we learn that Rey's parents were child and child-in-law of Palpatine. However, I guess they decided to stay out of the limelight. So, maybe, what Kylo Ren told Rey was true...from a certain point of view. :D

Luke didn't chicken out. He fell into despair. Its different. He didn't go to that island because he was scared. He did it because he was scarred. Anyone can fall into this kind of despair, even a great hero. Even Luke Skywalker. The fact that he was able to in the end overcome this despair and return to save the day. That's what makes him a hero. 

The events of the ST and specifically TLJ don't make Luke less of a hero. They make him a much greater hero. 

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2 hours ago, Darth Wicket said:

I would rather have someone like Jocasta Nu (or even some random Jedi) be the one who helped Grogu rather than someone like Windu who was supposed to be dead. I was never a fan of bringing back Maul or the Emperor. IMO, the only character who made any sense bringing back is Threepio after he was blasted to bits by a stormtrooper in Cloud City. :D

Jocasta Nu is exactly where my mind went to at first. She is a minor character in the movies that the more casual audience might be familiar with already, and they've already used her in some other EU materials recently (comics), so we know she survived the purge. I think this is would be a safe play though.

Even though this was my initial thought, but there is a question that keeps coming back to me... there were several several people floating in tanks during the return to Nevarro episode we recently saw. Did Grogu supply the blood for all of them? What about the experiments before that? Was this the first batch? If not, where did the blood come from for those? Back in the first season, why did IG-11 get a termination order, while Din got a capture alive option on his? Were they working for different customers? Also, how did they get a tracking beacon on Grogu in the first season? How does he have zero memory of the last several years? Did he willingly block that out, or did something block it out for him?

All of these things lead me to wonder if it was even a Jedi that "rescued" him from the temple.

18 minutes ago, Tank said:

There’s a middle ground between giving fans exactly what they want, and completely subverting all expectations. 

That there is, and I think people are forgetting that Filoni has historically not "played it safe" all the time. Remember the Mortis arc from the Clone Wars series? How about the World Between Worlds arc from Rebels? Those were some universe shaking events that could have some serious implications on the future of Star Wars. I think the reason those risky moves are so easily overlooked and forgotten though is because they were each in an animated series and in the EU on top of that, not the live action Skywalker Saga. I suspect we'll see more of the same with The Madalorian. I'm curious to see how those more risky arcs pay off in live action with a broader audience watching.

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Who did they bring down? Luke? The character who overcomes his own doubts and failures to save the day at the end, let all the good guys escape and inspire kids across the Galaxy? Thats bringing him down a peg? I really don't see how you can glorify a character more than this.

But in order to do all that, TLJ dismisses the idea that is set up in TFA that we are led to believe Luke was off on a quest to somehow reverse the damage that had happened with Kylo turning to the dark side, and instead we find a completely broken and defeated man who won't lift a finger to help his own sister, until Rey shows up.  I never cared for that take, and never will.  That is what I mean by destroying a classic character to advance a new one.  Sure the very end he is a hero, but "forcing" himself to death, instead of him returning for the final movie to help Rey,  Leia, and the rest of the rebellion was  unsatisfying to me.  I have no emotional connection to broom boy, and as far as being an inspiration to the galaxy, there is no evidence in TROS that was the case, at all.  Maybe to the survivors of the resistance that lived to board the Falcon, but not the galaxy.  Luke isn't even mentioned, and his TROS cameo is kind of useless.

One other thing is this.  The Mandalorian is building on the established world building we have seen in  especially TCW and Rebels, but also connecting the PT to the OT.  Above all, I like this.  Instead of running away from that, the Mando is embracing the past.  That is what I like about Mando better than the ST.

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7 minutes ago, Darth Wicket said:

You're right that Luke does redeem himself in the end of TLJ. However, it still really bothers me that he would run away only because the student that did all the damage was Han and Leia's son. Maybe if it was just a random kid, it wouldn't seem like that big of a deal to me. But he couldn't at least try to save Ben Solo at least for Han and Leia?

Agreed!

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1 minute ago, Zathras said:

But in order to do all that, TLJ dismisses the idea that is set up in TFA that we are led to believe Luke was off on a quest to somehow reverse the damage that had happened with Kylo turning to the dark side, and instead we find a completely broken and defeated man who won't lift a finger to help his own sister, until Rey shows up.  I never cared for that take, and never will.  That is what I mean by destroying a classic character to advance a new one.  Sure the very end he is a hero, but "forcing" himself to death, instead of him returning for the final movie to help Rey,  Leia, and the rest of the rebellion was  unsatisfying to me.  I have no emotional connection to broom boy, and as far as being an inspiration to the galaxy, there is no evidence in TROS that was the case, at all.  Maybe to the survivors of the resistance that lived to board the Falcon, but not the galaxy.  Luke isn't even mentioned, and his TROS cameo is kind of useless.

One other thing is this.  The Mandalorian is building on the established world building we have seen in  especially TCW and Rebels, but also connecting the PT to the OT.  Above all, I like this.  Instead of running away from that, the Mando is embracing the past.  That is what I like about Mando better than the ST.

Woah, where is it set up in TFA that Luke was off on a quest to reverse the damage with Kylo? Really, maybe Im missing it. Id be interested to see what lines or events in TFA you interpret to be a set up that Luke was off on some kind of quest to do this. 

From my memory the only real info we got on what happened to Luke was from Han who says and this is quoted from the script:

"He was training a new generation of Jedi. One boy, an apprentice turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible...he walked away from everything."

Then Finn asks what happened to him and Han replies

"There's a lot of rumors. Stories. People who knew him best think he went looking for the first Jedi Temple."

 

That's it. From what I can remember that is all we get on Luke in that movie. So I cant remember anything in the movie that suggests Luke is on some kind of quest to save the day. What Han says there is all we get on Luke and guess what? Its exactly what is given to us in TLJ.


 
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And I get that you can extrapolate that "went looking for the first jedi temple" to be "went looking for the first jedi temple for answers to help him save the day" or whatever. That could have been the case. That could have been the story and if they chose to go that way it would have fit fine. Im not saying what you are suggesting here could not have worked. It could have and it could have fit. But what they did do also fits because there is nothing stated in the movie suggesting the reason Luke went searching for that first Temple. 

If you wanted him to be there for some heroic purpose thats fine. Nothin wrong with that. Nothing wrong with being disappointed that it didn't go that way. What you can't do though is say TFA explicitly set that up and TLJ ignored it. Because the fact is it didn't. 

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The set up for me is that the Resistance was seeking out Luke from the very beginning of the movie.  That is why Leia sent Poe to Lor San Tekka.  BB8 has the missing piece of the map that R2D2 has.  If Luke didn't want to be found and wanted to wallow in his own self pity for being a failure,why would he leave a map behind to find him?  And on a planet that just so happens to have all kinds of Jedi secrets and such.  Rey at the very end goes to said planet to be trained as a Jedi, and presumably bring Luke back into the fold.  We were led to believe that Luke was going to be a power player in Ep 8.  But we know how TLJ plays out, which I feel doesn't match up.  You might believe so, along with a lot of others, but it didn't do it for me.  Hence why I didn't care for the last 2 ST movies.

 

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Just now, Zathras said:

The set up for me is that the Resistance was seeking out Luke from the very beginning of the movie.  That is why Leia sent Poe to Lor San Tekka.  BB8 has the missing piece of the map that R2D2 has.  If Luke didn't want to be found and wanted to wallow in his own self pity for being a failure,why would he leave a map behind to find him?  And on a planet that just so happens to have all kinds of Jedi secrets and such.  Rey at the very end goes to said planet to be trained as a Jedi, and presumably bring Luke back into the fold.  We were led to believe that Luke was going to be a power player in Ep 8.  But we know how TLJ plays out, which I feel doesn't match up.  You might believe so, along with a lot of others, but it didn't do it for me.  Hence why I didn't care for the last 2 ST movies.

 

Thats an interesting interpretation. Id say if Luke did want to be found leaving a map to be somehow found by some splinter group on Jakku and even that map being incomplete. Doesn't sound like someone who really wants his whereabouts known. 

The whole idea that Luke is wallowing in his own self pity is just horrific. Its a complete misunderstanding of how people can go into despair. It minimizes the effects that traumatic events can have on anyone. No matter how good and strong a person is. 

TFA is too vague with exactly what the map is and why its out there. If you believed after watching the movie that Luke somehow sent it out to signal he was ready to be found and rejoin the fray then I think thats probably fair. I thought that before the movie when reading spoilers to be honest. Even after seeing the movie it still could have been possible. If at the start of VIII we had found out Luke had a half dozen new students there ready to go and fight, that coulda worked. Hell it coulda been cool. But what you are doing is taking what you thought from TFA and hoped to be the case and then since TLJ didn';t match up with that you say TLJ doesn't match up with TLJ.

Thats not fair though. After TLJ you have to reasses TFA and see if it truly doesn't match up with what is presented. Not what you had previously thought was presented but whats actually in the movie. If you want to say you'd have preferred Luke to be off on some quest or training new students and sent the map out to be found thats fine. And it could have worked that way. But there is nothing in the movie to suggest Luke is on a quest, nothing to suggest he sent the map out. Its just not there. 

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To me, it doesn't match up because it takes the character of Luke and turns it on its head.  I don't RJ was being true to the character. Everything we all know about Luke from the OT, and what I read in EU or games I played, did not present Luke as a hermit.  Even when something similar happened in the EU, where a nephew goes onto become the scourge of the galaxy (I know, EU was thrown out exactly for the reason of having fresh new movies), Luke always remained Luke.  Instead we got the take we did, which I just simply don't like.

As far as TFA and TLJ not lining up, yeah, you did phrase it better, in that it was not a way I was expecting, nor liked.  That is a fair statement.  It does line up as far as the two movies, but it does not line up with what I came to expect of Luke Skywalker.  Remember, for me at least, I have been into Star Wars since the first movie was in theaters in the 1970s.  TLJ just took Luke in an undesirable direction for me.  There are other issues, too, but with respect to Luke, that is the long and short of it. 

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If you take Luke another level down into his character though it really does match up. Just look at ESB and what Yoda says of him always looking to the horizon and never his mind on where he was and what he was doing. At the time although we do see it as a flaw its like a charming flaw. He is this young, idealistic dreamer who just needs to learn focus. When you take that same character flaw though and put it through the lense of age and tragedy it becomes something different. Instead of looking forward and dreaming he is looking back and despairing. But in both cases his mind is not on the present and what he should be doing. He should be saying "I messed up but that doesnt matter. What matters is the situation now and how I can help, not how we got here." Thats what Luke should do. But that same flaw of not concentrating on the here and now and doing what he needs to do is the same flaw that leads to his isolation in the ST. And I think thats a very true thing for a lot of people. Character traits that can be very positive for people can also be turned to negative. It actually mirrors Anakin whose caring for others could inspire his great acts of heroism but also could be flipped to make him do terrible things to save the person he loved most. 

 

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