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Captain Marvel smile discussion


68 replies to this topic

#1
Iceheart

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Hero Status.



#2
Poe Dameron

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Oh dear, this isn't good.  It seems I'm not the only one who noticed that Larson forgot to emote in the trailer.  Well, some people made a few memes photoshopping smiles on her and boom, we have a sexism controversy that Larson herself is stoking because women are always told they need to smile more.

 

Obviously, smiling isn't the issue.  Outside of Shuri and whoever it was Kat Dennings played in the first two Thor movies, do any of the women in the MCU smile much?  Heck, Gamora outright plays the straight man in the most comedic series in the MCU.  It's just that Larson's got the same neutral expression on her face in every scene of the trailer except just a touch of humanity while driving in a car.  Liv Tyler's got more range.

 

This can't have been a surprise.  I mean, I assumed that they'd made a deliberate choice to portray her as emotionally deadened and brought in Jackson to provide the charisma and keep things light.  At first I thought it was a part of the whole amnesia thing plus whatever else she'd gone through, but she's like that in the flashbacks as well, and they're already hitting back at fans, so...  :shrug:



#3
Metropolis

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How far is Captain Marvel into post? We've seen how much footage of what will be a 2+ hour movie? I get it. It does look like she had the same look in most of those shots. The smiling thing is stupid though. And the seriousness in which this is being treated is insane. People need to get off if social media and the comments sections for a while and get some fresh air. I never knew there were so many perfect beings on this planet.
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#4
ShadowDog

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Love seeing these Twitter filmmakers who don't know the difference between emoting and acting bash Brie's performance without even knowing where along her character arc these scenes were taken from. Its hilarious
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#5
Poe Dameron

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Why go and attack everyone who noticed it as sexist then?  Why photoshop the male MCU characters with smiles as if that's the only thing people are commenting on and then send the compliant press after the fans?



#6
Brando

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Weren't the Photoshopped males a response to the Photoshopped pictures of Captain Marvel? I know I saw them first.

And if there's no sexism, why is she the only one who is being told to smile? There wasn't the slightest hint of a smile in the Civil War trailer, but nobody complained.

https://youtu.be/uVdV-lxRPFo

#7
Iceheart

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Because we women hear "awww, come on baby, I know you've got a smile for me!" incessantly?

 

I literally smile 98% of the time because I have resting nice face and a running commentary in my head that tends toward finding humor in things. But the minute I let my face go blank in public for whatever reason, I can assure you that some rando dude, usually a rather sleazy one, will comment on how I'm not smiling. You're complaining about how Brie Larson "attacked" these ***holes by responding to memes with memes in kind, but consider how it feels to have to regulate your facial expressions to appease men you don't even know, or they'll dog your steps until you do as they say, FORCING you to do as they say in this case. I think she acted pretty rationally, considering I usually resort to fantasizing about beating the everloving **** out of said men while wearing Joker facepaint.


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#8
Brando

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Doctor Strange didn't smile either:



#9
Tank

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Why go and attack everyone who noticed it as sexist then?  Why photoshop the male MCU characters with smiles as if that's the only thing people are commenting on and then send the compliant press after the fans?


Funny how you keep ending up accidentally on a certain side of things.

I think the point of saying she doesn't smile, when hardly any Marvel male hero has in their trailers either, is a valid argument/counter. But I do agree that people have run with it to crazytown.

But here's a thing. There is a venn diagram of displeasure. I didn't like the Ghostbusters remake, but I don't feel like anybody called me sexist. I don't like TLJ, but I also don't feel like I'm part of the make toxic fandom contingent.

Why? Cause I can express why I dislike these things without turning into a troll who cuts to the lowest common denominator or trying to make it political.

If you find yourself on the side of the voices being called out as sexist/racist/whateverist, but you know those labels don't apply to you, then they don't have to apply to you. If you know where you stand, why pretend to be offended because the opposing political side that you back is making legit noise about a small subset of angry voices who are in fact being unreasonable?

You can share an opinion and not be associated with the jerks. No one here said you were sexist, so why are you suddenly offended?

#10
Robin

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Usually when the not smiling or not emoting criticism rears up it is in regards to heroes that are known to smile (eg. Superman) or the low hanging fruit style criticism of actors that are not known to emote (eg. Kevin Costner).

Im not a major Captain Marvel or Danvers fan, but whenever I have seen her she is typically and heroically grimacing. So in this case perhaps the criticism is both silly and itself worthy of criticism, I dunno, I do know that I laughed/loved Larsons response to this.

#11
The Choc

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I can't believe this is a thing. Fandom really is terrible. 


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#12
Poe Dameron

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Weren't the Photoshopped males a response to the Photoshopped pictures of Captain Marvel? I know I saw them first.

Correct.  I said as much in the second sentence of my post.

 

 

 

And if there's no sexism, why is she the only one who is being told to smile? There wasn't the slightest hint of a smile in the Civil War trailer, but nobody complained.

 

Because it's not about smiling.  It's about being robotic.  To use your example, Doctor Strange shows frustration, determination, awe, self-pity, and all other sorts of emotions.  Jeremy Renner is the most stone-faced guy in Hollywood right now, but he still conveys humanity.  It's just more subtle.  And he's probably better at it than Larson because he's made a career out of his resting murder face.

 

I don't go on Twitter myself.  I literally saw the trailer on Youtube and the first place I came was here to post my thoughts on it and the strange lack of anything from Larson was at the top of the list as you can see above.  I rather assumed that I wouldn't be the only person having that reaction.  It doesn't take sexism for the internet to go out and make fun of something it finds awkward.

 

 

 

Usually when the not smiling or not emoting criticism rears up it is in regards to heroes that are known to smile (eg. Superman)

 

I did read an article where it was literally said that no one complained that Superman didn't smile.  I'll see if I can find it later.

 

Edit: Found it.

 

"Conversely, the films of the so-called DC Extended Universe have been ridiculed for not being funny enough — yet the lack of a consistent grin on the faces of Superman and Batman have never been cited as part of the problem."



#13
Iceheart

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Because it's not about smiling.  It's about being robotic.  

 

Okay, I see the problem here.

 

You have criticisms about the performance that you've seen. That's valid and not sexist.

 

This dude who isn't you seemingly has the same argument as you except he doesn't - if he did, he wouldn't have photoshopped smiles on every picture (including a promotional image, which has nothing to do with her performance in the trailer footage), he would have shopped a range of emotions.

 

So, THAT DUDE is not championing your cause. That dude turned it into an issue about sexism and the policing of women's emotions and facial expressions. Don't get mad at Brie Larson for firing back at a sexist troll, get mad at the sexist troll for representing your criticisms so badly and making you look sexist in the process.



#14
Tank

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That's exactly what I am saying. Liberals get accused of virtue signalling, but conservatives hypocrisy signal just as much.
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#15
Jacen123

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I just think it is nuts to criticize Larson (or any other actor/actress) based on the shots shown in a trailer.  It is pretty clear here that the trailer editor was trying to show Carol in primarily intense situations.


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#16
Iceheart

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That's exactly what I am saying. Liberals get accused of virtue signalling, but conservatives hypocrisy signal just as much.

 

Yeah, but he didn't get it when you said it, so I thought it bore repeating.



#17
Iceheart

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I just think it is nuts to criticize Larson (or any other actor/actress) based on the shots shown in a trailer.  It is pretty clear here that the trailer editor was trying to show Carol in primarily intense situations.

 

Especially since you can cut a trailer any way you want. I mean, Rogue One's trailer prominently featured a scene that they knew full well didn't even make it into the movie. 



#18
Poe Dameron

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This dude who isn't you seemingly has the same argument as you except he doesn't - if he did, he wouldn't have photoshopped smiles on every picture (including a promotional image, which has nothing to do with her performance in the trailer footage), he would have shopped a range of emotions.

 

And you know this how exactly?  Is it also possible that, it being a meme and not a social statement, that the person who did the photoshopping just thought smiles made for the funniest juxtaposition?  That seems the most likely reason that it was made and why it was picked up and spread around.

 

So there we are, you made an assumption and called someone sexist.  You were willing to do this because of a presumption of bad faith based on previous experiences (per post #15).  That's called prejudice.

 

And prejudice is the left's primary hypocrisy.  Sadly, it's rarely identified as such and usually encouraged.

 

It is pretty clear here that the trailer editor was trying to show Carol in primarily intense situations.

 

Not really.  Not much was happening in most of the scenes.  And, again, same deadened facial expression in almost all of them.

 

I'm still going with it was an intentional choice and she's going to be emotionally deadened throughout the movie because of the amnesia (though, those flashbacks are the same).  Don't know how well the choice is going to work.  The MCU is really built on the charm and personality of their leads.  Black Panther made it work with a fairly straight-laced character (charismatic villain carrying the load), but this is a whole other level.

 

I said it before and I'll say it again, it looks like Jackson is going to shoulder the load for making this entertaining.  At least we know he's more than up to the task.



#19
Brando

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It's really tiring that every thread has to turn into a political argument, especially since they all go the same.

Person A: <Political opinion related to something connected to the movie>

Person B: How can you say that? I think something, so I'm the victim here!

Person A: You don't understand, let me talk down to you and explain that my side is the victim.

Person B: No, I'm the victim! You're wrong!

Nothing ever changes, it's the same argument over and over. Especially regarding anything female-centered. We had it over Rey, Ghostbusters, Captain Marvel, and I'm sure other things that I just can't think of. And no side is innocent. But it kills conversation about anything else other than the politics.

It's easy to fall into, but I am going to draw a line here. This thread is about the Captain Marvel movie. Discussions about the movie can take place. If you want to discuss female representation, harassment, or general victimhood, either start a new thread or, even better, start a thread in the Lyceum.

#20
Iceheart

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This dude who isn't you seemingly has the same argument as you except he doesn't - if he did, he wouldn't have photoshopped smiles on every picture (including a promotional image, which has nothing to do with her performance in the trailer footage), he would have shopped a range of emotions.

 

And you know this how exactly?  Is it also possible that, it being a meme and not a social statement, that the person who did the photoshopping just thought smiles made for the funniest juxtaposition?  That seems the most likely reason that it was made and why it was picked up and spread around.

 

So there we are, you made an assumption and called someone sexist.  You were willing to do this because of a presumption of bad faith based on previous experiences (per post #15).  That's called prejudice.

 

And prejudice is the left's primary hypocrisy.  Sadly, it's rarely identified as such and usually encouraged.

 

 

 

All memes are social statements. Yes, even the dumb ones. That's the very definition of a meme.

 

If this person made said meme in some sort of vacuum where they don't know that women are forced to smile regularly, they need to get out more. If this is the first time this person is learning about this, the thing a good person would do is apologize and learn from their mistake. I just scrolled through their twitter feed, as I did when I first learned of the controversy, and I did not see any kind of "oh **** I had no idea that was sexist my bad I am so, so sorry" or a legitimate argument about how this was a reaction to a wooden performance that has nothing to do with the sex of the actor, but what I am seeing is a lot of tweets and retweets about MGTOW and anti-feminism and doing away with women's rights. Example one. Example two. Just keep scrolling for more examples. Is this person really sexist? idk, maybe they're an edgelord troll who is actually fine with women, but they have purposefully curated their twitter to appear openly and unabashedly sexist. One would then logically conclude that they knew exactly what they were doing when they pulled out their photo editor, and the meme is sexist, whether sincerely or trollingly or both.

 

Now, who's the one going into this argument after doing due diligence research, and who's the one making baseless assumptions and showing their prejudice? 



#21
El Chalupacabra

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It's really tiring that every thread has to turn into a political argument, especially since they all go the same.

Person A: <Political opinion related to something connected to the movie>

Person B: How can you say that? I think something, so I'm the victim here!

Person A: You don't understand, let me talk down to you and explain that my side is the victim.

Person B: No, I'm the victim! You're wrong!

Nothing ever changes, it's the same argument over and over. Especially regarding anything female-centered. We had it over Rey, Ghostbusters, Captain Marvel, and I'm sure other things that I just can't think of. And no side is innocent. But it kills conversation about anything else other than the politics.

It's easy to fall into, but I am going to draw a line here. This thread is about the Captain Marvel movie. Discussions about the movie can take place. If you want to discuss female representation, harassment, or general victimhood, either start a new thread or, even better, start a thread in the Lyceum.

I am totally 100% with you on this.  If one wants to talk about movies from a political perspective on this site, save it for the Lyceum.  When it comes to superhero/fantasy/sci fi  blockbuster style movies, I want them to be apolitical, and I want to participate in discussions about them in an apolitical way.  I am sick of people from the movie industry (not directed to anyone here at nightly, just talking about articles or interviews I have seen or read) preaching their political views (which are typically left of center, which I am on social issues, too, BTW!), and I am equally tired of fans or just straight up trolls who skew right  (again, not directed at anyone here, but I see it on youtube or in articles, etc) always turning said discussion into an anti-SJW/end times are nigh/Hollywood hates white men debate.



#22
Metropolis

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It is kind of funny when yousay hates white men debate, you're usually talking about other white people these days. There is a comedy there somewhere. :p

#23
Poe Dameron

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All memes are social statements. Yes, even the dumb ones. That's the very definition of a meme.

 

That statement contains zero fact.



#24
Iceheart

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From Merriam-Webster:

Definition of meme

 

1: an idea, behavior, style, or usage that spreads from person to person within a culture

 

2: an amusing or interesting item (such as a captioned picture or video) or genre of items that is spread widely online especially through social media

 

 

Just in case there's any confusion on what culture means:
 

Definition of culture

(Entry 1 of 2)

1a : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (such as diversions or a way of life) shared by people in a place or time

b : the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution or organization

c : the set of values, conventions, or social practices associated with a particular field, activity, or societal characteristic

 

Wow, that's a lot of use of the word "social." Just so we're clear, while "social" has many meanings, this is the one relevant to the discussion:

 

3 : of or relating to human society, the interaction of the individual and the group, or the welfare of human beings as members of society

 

 

Let's take the meme and counter-meme in question. Had you never seen the Captain Marvel trailer, you'd have no idea it was a meme and not just stills of some blonde lady smiling. Had you never seen the posters for the other Marvel movies that were used in the counter-meme, you'd have no idea they had been altered. You need a very specific kind of social knowledge to understand the meme, like you need to understand any meme, as evidenced by how I'm sure we've all run into plenty of memes that we don't understand, or that we understand but don't appreciate in the way the creator of said meme intended (e.g. you didn't laugh). So, a meme going viral has a whole lot to do with people sharing it and in effect saying "I understand this and appreciate this, therefore I am displaying and demonstrating my social knowledge and ties in a way to bond with others like me by sharing this." That's a social statement if I've ever heard one.

 

I'd acknowledge that you're talking about a social statement as a statement of deeply-held personal beliefs and therefore we're arguing semantics, except you picked the wrong meme to die on, especially since we have established that the creator is proudly sexist and uses memes to communicate this.



#25
Brando

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  you picked [. . .] wrong


Impossible.



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