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The Jedi and The First Order


35 replies to this topic

#26
El Chalupacabra

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I don't think anything should be read too deeply into what Lucas intended to do or say. I know this will sound like ye ol PT bashing, but Lucas is a weak writer.

He wanted it to be clear that Anakin is ultimately corrupted by his inability to have any chill. He framed that by way of Anakin struggling with attachment. The idea that he is "too old" is the easiest way to just tell the audience that he is too emotionally attached to his mother.

It's just like he needed a way to make it clear Anakin was super special, so he makes up a midichloriam test.

When he had no one to answer to, studio or producer, and the added benefit of having made the Jedi up, he could get away with just calling his first, most on the nose ideas done.

I agree Lucas is a big picture type of writer who has good ideas, and when it gets to actual details, he is weak. He probably should have left the finer details to better writers, which does explain what happened with the PT, because he didn't. Many issues people have with the PT is valid. I am not going to defend that at all.   

 

But, I think when it comes to my original response to Filthy Jawa, and without invalidating what you just said (because it does make sense and I agree with much of it) I still think that at least some of what I pointed out about knights, samurai, and shaolin monks could be what influenced how he depicted the Jedi Order.   But again, just a theory on my part.  Only Lucas could really answer that, and I haven't seen anything where Lucas stated anything to back my theory up. My theory is mostly based on making comparisons of how the jedi were depicted by Lucas,  to real life examples of real monks or warriors.  



#27
monkwich

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is el chalupacabra 12 years old?



#28
Fozzie

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We're all twelve, but my birthday was first and I'm the oldest so mom said I'm in charge.
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#29
Odine

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I don't think anything should be read too deeply into what Lucas intended to do or say. I know this will sound like ye ol PT bashing, but Lucas is a weak writer.

He wanted it to be clear that Anakin is ultimately corrupted by his inability to have any chill. He framed that by way of Anakin struggling with attachment. The idea that he is "too old" is the easiest way to just tell the audience that he is too emotionally attached to his mother.

It's just like he needed a way to make it clear Anakin was super special, so he makes up a midichloriam test.

When he had no one to answer to, studio or producer, and the added benefit of having made the Jedi up, he could get away with just calling his first, most on the nose ideas done.

I agree Lucas is a big picture type of writer who has good ideas, and when it gets to actual details, he is weak. He probably should have left the finer details to better writers, which does explain what happened with the PT, because he didn't. Many issues people have with the PT is valid. I am not going to defend that at all.   

 

But, I think when it comes to my original response to Filthy Jawa, and without invalidating what you just said (because it does make sense and I agree with much of it) I still think that at least some of what I pointed out about knights, samurai, and shaolin monks could be what influenced how he depicted the Jedi Order.   But again, just a theory on my part.  Only Lucas could really answer that, and I haven't seen anything where Lucas stated anything to back my theory up. My theory is mostly based on making comparisons of how the jedi were depicted by Lucas,  to real life examples of real monks or warriors.  

 

I mean.... Star Wars is totally influenced by real world religions, philosophies, eastern and western monastic orders, samurai, arthurian myth, the Roman Empire and of course Nazis. You're bob on. Makes sense the Jedi train from a young age. That said, I find it odd that starting training as a toddler should be considered the absolute norm and that it was totally crazy that Luke started training so late. 

 

As for the original post.. I suppose it could be and angle for focus... That both light and dark side orders take children away from their families when young. But to be honest that **** happens in real life all the time. Look at boarding schools. It's not the most compelling aspect of the universe I'd want a story to focus on, unless its focused singularly on one character and their dealing with it. Which is kind of what we've got anyway. 

 

What was the question again?  I've been in a poorly ventilated room all day with lots of solvents. 



#30
Odine

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is el chalupacabra 12 years old?

Nah, a might exasperated maybe and a little sensitive perhaps.... but I can empathize. 

 

Sharing your opinion with Choc can be a sure fire way for it to be sh@t on.  It can be infuriating at times since he could argue the sky isn't blue until he died of old age, without getting rattled no matter what you say, one bit. (no disrespect, Choc).  But its the internet so hey, whatever.


Edited by Odine, 14 September 2018 - 11:11 AM.


#31
The Choc

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Why would I take offense to that. You said basically I will defend my stance and not get rattled. Thanks.

 

Anyway, I really can't believe he reacted this way. When I wrote the post and said "Im glad you are reading my posts..." I figured his response would be to laugh and say "I guess we just never will agree." When he responded the way he did I honestly at first thought he was joking or being sarcastic. I didn't want to respond to it the way I did out of fear of looking foolish for not getting the sarcasm.

 

People talking about opinions being **** on, i was a prequel lover on this board during the prequel era. Talk about getting your opinion **** on. I never minded and it not got personal. Just like it's not personal now. I mean he is claiming Im in the wrong here, I've never called him a name. Nothing even close. Ive never said anything about him personally. He called me a douchebag in this very thread. 


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#32
Odine

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Lol. Is there any star wars that you don't like?

#33
The Choc

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There are some I like more than others but if you made me lump them all into broad piles  "Like" or "Dislike" they'd all end up in the "Like" pile. 


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#34
The Choc

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I don't think anything should be read too deeply into what Lucas intended to do or say. I know this will sound like ye ol PT bashing, but Lucas is a weak writer.

He wanted it to be clear that Anakin is ultimately corrupted by his inability to have any chill. He framed that by way of Anakin struggling with attachment. The idea that he is "too old" is the easiest way to just tell the audience that he is too emotionally attached to his mother.

It's just like he needed a way to make it clear Anakin was super special, so he makes up a midichloriam test.

When he had no one to answer to, studio or producer, and the added benefit of having made the Jedi up, he could get away with just calling his first, most on the nose ideas done.

Sometimes I 100% agree with this, others I'm just not sure. I do think that we are supposed to think the Jedi Order is a bit askew. Look at ROTS, Anakin goes to Yoda for advice about a friend he is having visions of dying. Yoda is basically like "let them die and be happy about it." That's not advice any normal human being is going to listen to. I think we are supposed to think that. 



#35
Tank

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I don't disagree with that. The Jedi are most certainly flawed in some ways, otherwise it wouldn't have been established that Qui-Gon was at odds with them at times. Moreso, the fact that Yoda told Luke he had to kill Vader otherwise he'd be doomed-- but Luke proved him wrong, twice. Once by surviving, second by turning him.

 

But, that doesn't mean that his thought process goes any deeper than the simplest way possible. Lucas has very big sweeping ideas and a myriad of points of inspiration, but as a wrier he is very lazy.



#36
The Choc

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I don't disagree with that. The Jedi are most certainly flawed in some ways, otherwise it wouldn't have been established that Qui-Gon was at odds with them at times. Moreso, the fact that Yoda told Luke he had to kill Vader otherwise he'd be doomed-- but Luke proved him wrong, twice. Once by surviving, second by turning him.

 

But, that doesn't mean that his thought process goes any deeper than the simplest way possible. Lucas has very big sweeping ideas and a myriad of points of inspiration, but as a wrier he is very lazy.

Thing with Anakin being "too old" though is that it's obviously not too old to learn how to use the Force well enough. Luke proves that in the OT and Rey again in the ST. If you have the talent in The Force you can learn to wield it fairly quickly. Leave Rey out of it, Luke shows this in the OT which was written before the PT. So if it's not the actual learning of the Force you need to start early then what is it? It's the indoctrination in terms of not having normal human feelings and relationships with other humans. I know this isn't stated in the movies and I have zero idea if that was Lucas' intention. That doesn't really matter though, what matters is what we are left with which is a Jedi Order that is kinda f'd up. They've been around so long, they started to like the smell of their own farts.

 

All I was really saying in the original post was that instead of Luke basically saying "The Jedi must end, they failed and had hubris..." maybe get into 1 or 2 specific things that show us the Jedi were messed up in some ways. I'm not saying I want 45 minutes of that, but just a bit. 





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