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The Jedi and The First Order


35 replies to this topic

#1
The Choc

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In TFA Finn tells Rey that he was taken from a family he ever knew and forced to fight for the First Order. Pretty terrible stuff, that First Order is pretty bad. Only the thing is the Jedi do the exact same thing. Now I know maybe there are slight differences in that I'm guessing the parents "willingly" give their kids over to the Jedi when they come knocking. Does that really matter though? First the kids are toddlers right? They obviously have no say in this matter. They seemingly don't get to choose between growing up with a family and going off to be raised by some magic warrior monks for a lifetime commitment. And even if they did choose, they are far too you to choose. Hell Anakin is far too young to choose when he goes off with Qui Gon. The babies the Jedi take certainly can't make a choice. Secondly do the parents really have a choice? Are there societal pressures to allow the Jedi to take your kid? Is it seen as a duty? Can parents realistically say no? Are there alot of force sensitive people out there whose parents wouldnt turn them over the Jedi? Besides potential societal failures do parents really have a choice when a couple magical warriors show up to their house with lazer swords on their belts asking about your kids? 

 

I would have loved to have seen this comparison made in TLJ. In that movie we get Luke with some generic stuff against the Jedi. They failed, they had hubris. I would have loved to seen this exact sin brought up. Rey certainly could have made the connection between what the Jedi did and what happened to Finn. She also could have connected it to her own experience. All she wants throughout the movies is belonging, hoping against hope that her family comes back. What would she think when she found out the Jedi were taking kids away from their families as babies. What would she think when the "good guys" were doing this?

 

 



#2
Metropolis

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It's a tough argument because any real discussion of this lies in the EU. In there the Jedi have taken children for the good of the order to train them. Once they began training it was looked at as dangerous for them to return to their regular lives before their training was complete.

#3
Fozzie

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I think that you could reach that conclusion just from the movies. At the very least they take children younger than Anakin and believe that emotional attachments outside the order are dangerous.

Which adds another level to Luke, who had real friends who weren't Jedi, and ended up being able to do something that nobody else could do because of his emotional connections. I think that probably connects to the hubris he describes. But, yeah, I think that the theme that came out of the prequels and does "change" the OT is that the Jedi were messed up, and not just the heroes that we imagined.

#4
The Choc

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It's a tough argument because any real discussion of this lies in the EU. In there the Jedi have taken children for the good of the order to train them. Once they began training it was looked at as dangerous for them to return to their regular lives before their training was complete.

The First Order also take children for the good of the Order.

 

I just think this direct comparison is too good to pass up and not have in the movie. Missed opportunity. 



#5
Metropolis

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I agree it's a comparison too good to not explore.

#6
Poe Dameron

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Now I know maybe there are slight differences in that I'm guessing the parents "willingly" give their kids over to the Jedi when they come knocking. Does that really matter though?

 

Well yeah.  Kidnapping and slavery are certainly morally worse than the parents willingly making a child a ward of the Jedi Order.

 

Which adds another level to Luke, who had real friends who weren't Jedi, and ended up being able to do something that nobody else could do because of his emotional connections. I think that probably connects to the hubris he describes. But, yeah, I think that the theme that came out of the prequels and does "change" the OT is that the Jedi were messed up, and not just the heroes that we imagined.

 

It would be an interesting notion to explore.  Unfortunately, Luke's later experience didn't really make a good case for it.



#7
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If this is ever explored it will be in future books not the movies. Any Jedi still alive at this point is not a product of this Jedi system. Now there is also (as far as we know) no Sith with knowledge of the past. Palatine in the EU told Maul that the Jedi were no more better than the Sith because the Jedi stole children from their families. Who knows what Ren knows of the Jedi way. Who knows how Snoke spun that history.

#8
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A slight tangent, but this is one thing from the long list of "things that irritated me about the PT". There is no good reason to make Jedi training start that young.

It largely seems to stem from the Yoda line that Luke was too old to begin the training at age...20? Or whatever he was. It makes no sense in a real-world sort of way - that parents would give away their children at age 4. Lucas could have easily made the youngest Jedi initiates around 12 and it would all be fine. (And before someone argues that this is not the real world - I know it isn't, but real world rules of human nature and logic do apply in Star Wars, that is mostly consistent).

Maybe Lucas was trying to toss in some nuance -- that the Jedi order was flawed. Or maybe he just wanted to set up the scene of Anakin killing younglings (cringe-worthy term) because he couldn't think of another way to demonstrate to the audience that Anakin bad now. Whatever the reason, it bugged me from the moment it happened. Some of the things I dislike about the PT had to grow on me, but four-year-old Jedi kids bugged me from the get go.

#9
El Chalupacabra

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A slight tangent, but this is one thing from the long list of "things that irritated me about the PT". There is no good reason to make Jedi training start that young.
 

Short answer is because George Lucas came up with the idea of Jedi.  I never had a problem with jedi being required to start young as a policy. The EU did have exceptions of course, and so were both Anakin and Luke.  And Rey for that matter (assuming she isn't revealed to have been a child jedi that had her memory force wiped to protect her). 

 

But I do have a theory...

 

While I am not aware of Lucas explicitly stating what exact real life influences went into creating the jedi, here are a few things that are very likely to have influenced him:

 

1. European medieval knights:  boys began to train to become a knight as early as age 7 as squires, and received knighthood  usually around age 21.  This is analogous to padawans and jedi knights.   To be a knight, you had to be some type of nobility, and one way to look at the force is this: those who could use the force were in a way a type of nobility.   King Arther and Merlin are often cited as influences for Luke and Obi Wan.  

 

2. Samurai:  Much like their European counterparts, samurai (who can be argued as the Japanese equivalent to knights) began training at a very young age.  As early as age 3.   The samurai sword seems to be an influence on light sabers, and the samurai code of honor seems to influence how jedis act.  

 

3. Buddhist Monks (including Zen, Tibeten, Shaolin, etc): oftentimes, monks began at a very early age.  The concept of chi is likely an influence Lucas had for the idea of the Force.  Shaolin robes in particular seem to have influenced jedi robes.  Also, aspiring shaolin monks are assigned to a master, who trains them until they are ready to become shaolin.  Kung Fu and weapons training are obvious influences, too.

 

4.  Catholic Church monastic orders:  also started training in childhood.  Also, the way the jedi order was modeled, it always seemed to me the Catholic Church, especially the monastic orders influenced the idea of the jedi order.  

 

So basically what ties all of these possible influences is that they all start at an early age, with the belief that in order  to be properly trained, one must start at an early age.  I think THAT is why Lucas wrote the jedi as he did. 



#10
El Chalupacabra

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Now I know maybe there are slight differences in that I'm guessing the parents "willingly" give their kids over to the Jedi when they come knocking. Does that really matter though?

 

Well yeah.  Kidnapping and slavery are certainly morally worse than the parents willingly making a child a ward of the Jedi Order.

 

 

 

Which adds another level to Luke, who had real friends who weren't Jedi, and ended up being able to do something that nobody else could do because of his emotional connections. I think that probably connects to the hubris he describes. But, yeah, I think that the theme that came out of the prequels and does "change" the OT is that the Jedi were messed up, and not just the heroes that we imagined.

 

It would be an interesting notion to explore.  Unfortunately, Luke's later experience didn't really make a good case for it.

 

I agree with you on both.

 

If I were to compare the Jedi practice of training at a young age, to the First Order I would say this:

 

Jedi are not compelled against their will to train.  Usually, it seems that joining the jedi order improves their lives (especially for those who live in poor conditions prior to the order, like Anakin, Luke, and Rey) despite the sacrifices they have to make.  I think comparing the jedi to european knights, samurai, shaolin monks, and the Catholic monastic orders is a valid comparison. 

 

The First Order compels their conscripts.  They are literally kidnapped.  I think you can make a partial comparison to the spartan military academies, and a direct comparison to the Hitler youth.  

 

So, yeah, HUGE differences.



#11
The Choc

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There are differences for sure, I wasn't saying it was exactly the same. I don't think I ever said that. But obviously there are similarities too. I get that Jedi can leave the Jedi Order, but all evidence suggests none do. There are many many Jedi and they've existed for a thousand generations. Based on what we've seen only 20 ever have left the Order, right? The whole Lost 20 thing? So it doesn't seem like it's a real choice for any of them to make. Maybe thats because being a Jedi is so great that none ever want to leave. Maybe it's because they are indoctrinated from such a young age that they just can't.

 

I'm not saying the Jedi were evil, nothing like that at all. What I'm saying is they were certainly good intentioned and even more they actually did good. But they weren't perfect and perhaps taking children from their parents at such a young age is part of that. 



#12
The Choc

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A slight tangent, but this is one thing from the long list of "things that irritated me about the PT". There is no good reason to make Jedi training start that young.

It largely seems to stem from the Yoda line that Luke was too old to begin the training at age...20? Or whatever he was. It makes no sense in a real-world sort of way - that parents would give away their children at age 4. Lucas could have easily made the youngest Jedi initiates around 12 and it would all be fine. (And before someone argues that this is not the real world - I know it isn't, but real world rules of human nature and logic do apply in Star Wars, that is mostly consistent).

Maybe Lucas was trying to toss in some nuance -- that the Jedi order was flawed. Or maybe he just wanted to set up the scene of Anakin killing younglings (cringe-worthy term) because he couldn't think of another way to demonstrate to the audience that Anakin bad now. Whatever the reason, it bugged me from the moment it happened. Some of the things I dislike about the PT had to grow on me, but four-year-old Jedi kids bugged me from the get go.

Yeah, I don't know if Lucas intended for it to show that maybe the Jedi had some weird crap going on but that is kinda the end result no matter if he intended it or not. May as well use that going forward in the ST or future movies. 

 

Going in I kinda thought that maybe Luke would have found fthe earliest teaching of the Jedi ran contrary to what we knew in the PT. That family and loved ones were seen as very important and that over time the real Jedi religion had been corrupted over the thousands of years. 



#13
El Chalupacabra

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The jedi were obviously not evil, and I never said anyone claimed they were.  All I am saying is if one applies real world examples to both the jedi and the First Order, the differences become more clear.  I think the whole point of the PT, OT, and even the ST, was to demonstrate that while the Jedi had good intentions, they fell into the trap of doing things the way they did out of tradition, and because it was the way it had been done for thousands of years.  The Catholic Church barely existed 1000 years before its first schism, and implemented changes over the next 1000 years, gradually.  Imagine an order 20 times older that never changed, while the rest of the galaxy did.  Hence why the jedi fell into the trap of complacency that brought their destruction.  



#14
The Choc

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That wouldn't be a bad story. A family has a toddler, knows he is special and actually fears the Jedi coming to take him. They arent forced to give the child up but there are huge pressures to do so. Everyone else near them thinks its a great honor. It would be seen as selfish if they don't give the child up for the good of the Galaxy.

 

Flash forward however many years and you could have the mother seeking out the child or maybe the Jedi leaving the Order to find his family. You'd have to work in some kind of action and conflict to it cause it's Star Wars, but that would be an interesting story. 



#15
The Choc

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The jedi were obviously not evil, and I never said anyone claimed they were.  All I am saying is if one applies real world examples to both the jedi and the First Order, the differences become more clear.  I think the whole point of the PT, OT, and even the ST, was to demonstrate that while the Jedi had good intentions, they fell into the trap of doing things the way they did out of tradition, and because it was the way it had been done for thousands of years.  The Catholic Church barely existed 1000 years before its first schism, and implemented changes over the next 1000 years, gradually.  Imagine an order 20 times older that never changed, while the rest of the galaxy did.  Hence why the jedi fell into the trap of complacency that brought their destruction.  

I didn't mean to say you accused me of that, was just making it plain for future posters.

 

I just think that this one thing the Jedi did "wrong" is a perfect fit to be brought in the ST because Finn was taken from his parents at such a young age, like jedi were, and Rey wants so badly to have her family so learning that the Jedi took kids away from their families might not sit so well with her. 



#16
El Chalupacabra

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The jedi were obviously not evil, and I never said anyone claimed they were.  All I am saying is if one applies real world examples to both the jedi and the First Order, the differences become more clear.  I think the whole point of the PT, OT, and even the ST, was to demonstrate that while the Jedi had good intentions, they fell into the trap of doing things the way they did out of tradition, and because it was the way it had been done for thousands of years.  The Catholic Church barely existed 1000 years before its first schism, and implemented changes over the next 1000 years, gradually.  Imagine an order 20 times older that never changed, while the rest of the galaxy did.  Hence why the jedi fell into the trap of complacency that brought their destruction.  

I didn't mean to say you accused me of that, was just making it plain for future posters.

 

I just think that this one thing the Jedi did "wrong" is a perfect fit to be brought in the ST because Finn was taken from his parents at such a young age, like jedi were, and Rey wants so badly to have her family so learning that the Jedi took kids away from their families might not sit so well with her. 

 

If the ST had a simple line or 2 between Finn and Rey pointing that out, their bond would have made more sense and been more interesting.  Especially if Rey is revealed to have been a young padawan, and the only survivor of the temple Kylo destroyed, and Luke wiped her memory to protect her, and placed her into hiding.  Basically, her parents didn't want her and she laments that, and Finn laments having been ripped from his family at about the same age, but says something to the effect at least she wasn't compelled to serve the First Order and become a killer.  



#17
The Choc

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Im glad you are evidently reading my posts again but I have to say I really don't like the idea of Rey having been a Padawan at Lukes Temple and I really hate the idea of a mind wipe. I think the decision to make Rey be an orphan was the best thing they've done in the ST. The single best decision they've made thus far. 



#18
El Chalupacabra

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And here we go.  Back on ignore. 



#19
The Choc

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He is kidding? Right? I mean you can't disagree with someone? Crazy stuff. 



#20
El Chalupacabra

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I didn't come in here to start sh*t with anyone.  I was actually trying to be cool to you, because I started thinking I was heavy handed and maybe a tad unfair a while back. I stopped in because the topic seemed interesting.  But apparently your douche baggery knows no bounds.  Hell of a thing to say you are glad I'm reading your posts again, and then to proceed to start the same crap again.



#21
The Choc

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I didn't come in here to start sh*t with anyone.  I was actually trying to be cool to you, because I started thinking I was heavy handed and maybe a tad unfair a while back. I stopped in because the topic seemed interesting.  But apparently your douche baggery knows no bounds.  Hell of a thing to say you are glad I'm reading your posts again, and proceed then start the same crap again.

What crap? Really? I said nothing mean or anything along those lines. I simply disagreed with what you said. You didn't even make it clear that it was something you wanted to see or thought would be good. You simply stated it as a possibility  and I stated that I didn't like it. Isn't that the whole point of this board to have discussions like that? I actually wrote "Im glad you are reading my posts again" to stress that I have zero, zero, zero problem with you at all in any way shape or form.

 

I'm sorry our opinions on Star Wars seem to vary so much, it just is what it is. But that's cool with me. When I made this topic I made it hoping people would disagree with me so we could discuss/argue about. I certainly don't make it so everyone says "oh yeah, super perfect idea". That would be boring. 



#22
El Chalupacabra

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Well for future reference, here's a suggestion when someone you have disagreed and been disagreeable towards, is actually making an effort to be civil towards you, after you both have had disagreements that pissed off one or both sides, and floats an idea you don't like:

 

try saying:

 

1.  nothing

 

or

 

2. you disagree, but respect their right to their opinion

 

Don't write a paragraph saying you hate their opinion and sh*t all over it.  



#23
The Choc

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I don't think I ever said you don't have a right to your opinion. Obviously you do. I love TLJ, you hate it. That's fine. I don't expect every time you state that negative opinion for you to throw in "well everyone who likes the movie has a right to that opinion but...." Just say what the hell you want to say. I don't know what to tell you if you expect or want me to sugar coat everything I say with superfluous niceties that add zero to the actual content of the post. That's just a waste of my time to write it and anyone elses time to read it. 



#24
El Chalupacabra

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Sort of like conversing with you: A complete waste of time.  Hence, ignore.  Why don't you place me on ignore as well, and we won't have any future issues. 



#25
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I don't think anything should be read too deeply into what Lucas intended to do or say. I know this will sound like ye ol PT bashing, but Lucas is a weak writer.

He wanted it to be clear that Anakin is ultimately corrupted by his inability to have any chill. He framed that by way of Anakin struggling with attachment. The idea that he is "too old" is the easiest way to just tell the audience that he is too emotionally attached to his mother.

It's just like he needed a way to make it clear Anakin was super special, so he makes up a midichloriam test.

When he had no one to answer to, studio or producer, and the added benefit of having made the Jedi up, he could get away with just calling his first, most on the nose ideas done.



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