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What Episode IX needs to do to save the ST


262 replies to this topic

#51
ShadowDog

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Them not jumping ahead of the rebel fleet is NOT a plot hole, it's a character mistake. Specifically, its arrogance. The First Order thought they had them. "Why didn't they jump in front of them?" What's their hurry? This is IT. This is the end of the war. What difference does a couple hours make?

This is sheer arrogance on the FO's part, which is consistant in the series going back to the Empire. "Why didn't the Death Star jump to the other side of the sun instead of orbiting Yavin so they could blow up the rebel base faster?!? ARGH!!! PLOT HOLE!!!!!"

No, its not a plot hole, it's a character decision based in arrogance. You can't call this a plot hole but call what happened in ANH not a plot hole just because you liked ANH.

If you think the space chase was boring, that's fine. If you didn't like it for any reason, that's fine. (I didn't like it either) But its NOT a plot hole. Its franchise consistent arrogance on the bad guys' part.

#52
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But we didn't get that line. If we had, that would have been a nice cover to the hole.

When we see it done by others as the audience we are being told YOU CAN DO THIS. If a valid reason NOT to do it is offered up on the part of the First Order we'd buy it. But we didn't get one, so it doesn't read as ignorance or a mistake on their part, it reads like lazy writing at best, a plot hole at worst.
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#53
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If we want to get super technical, it's not really a plot hole because it's not an intrinsic issue with the story not working because of an omission or error, it's more of a logic problem based around creating false tension.
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#54
The Choc

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But we didn't get that line. If we had, that would have been a nice cover to the hole.

When we see it done by others as the audience we are being told YOU CAN DO THIS. If a valid reason NOT to do it is offered up on the part of the First Order we'd buy it. But we didn't get one, so it doesn't read as ignorance or a mistake on their part, it reads like lazy writing at best, a plot hole at worst.

For me though, do we really want this? Do we want a storyteller to write his story and then go back and come up with every single thing someone in the audience may object to or want to know more about and add a couple lines of dialogue? 



#55
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Yes.

Literally, yes.

That is a screenwriter's job, to make things logic proof so they aren't questioned. Obviously, when you get deep into the weeds with a franchise like Star Wars were some fan will be mad something onscreen violates a line on page 37 of some book published 15 years ago, you can't win, nor should you try.

BUT, within the confines of your own story, YES, you should be fool proof. Which is my problem, had they not shown TWO separate cases of precision jumps into the chase situation I wouldn't have questioned their inability to catch the rebel ships. I still would have thought that it was a lame, boring device, but I wouldn't have questioned the logic of it as much.
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#56
The Choc

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Even saying that, there is a scene where Hux confidently says "its only a matter of time." So you can easily take that to show that he is so confident that they will eventually run of fuel and be caught that there is no reason to do anything else. Could it have been stated explicitly to deal with that exact complaint "hey Hux why not have a ship jump in front of them" "No need its only a matter of time." I guess, if that helps you out. It wouldn't for me.

 

For me there are just so many inconsistencies in all the movies that are there for plot convienence. This movie included. Hell a major plot point is how the First Order can't penetrate their shields. Other than when they fire into the landing bay to take out Poe's ship and when they fire on the bridge. In those 2 cases the shields seem non existent. Now maybe some one who hates the movie will see me point that out or when I pointed out before how its weird The First Order doesn't attack the Resistance Cruiser in the opening battle and get even more mad at logic problems.

 

I think these things exist in all of the movies. In fact I think stuff like this was stuff we used to kinda make fun of and almost made the movies more endearing. People just take the movies too seriously now though. 



#57
The Choc

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I'm not a "check your brain at the door" type of guy. I'm just not. Part of that is that my job depends on my ability to take apart movies down a micro level. I can't willfully not do that, but I can be distracted if what I am watching is particularly entertaining or moving, of which TLJ was neither.

Like I said in the TLJ thread, I went in mostly spoiler free and amped. And the first act was great and exciting... and then near the top of act two I said to myself "oh no... this isn't a new set up, this is actually the movie."

Funny, that's what I liked about the movie.  That it actually went out there and challenged the viewer.  Not that it's the theatrical version of The Sound and the Fury, but I much preferred it to the genuine "check your brain at the door" films like TFA or even Solo.

 

Now, was the chase scene and Canto Bight a problem?  Yeah.  Stuck in-between some of the best work Star Wars has ever done are two sequences that are treading water and not even doing it in any particularly interesting way.  It's a shame because this movie was a layup away from laying a stranglehold on the title of 3rd best in the series.

 

I agree with that last paragraph in principle, although I think the movie is #3 now, if those 2 things you mentioned were handled somewhat better I thin this movie could take its place with Empire. 



#58
Poe Dameron

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This is sheer arrogance on the FO's part, which is consistant in the series going back to the Empire. "Why didn't the Death Star jump to the other side of the sun instead of orbiting Yavin so they could blow up the rebel base faster?!? ARGH!!! PLOT HOLE!!!!!"

Now you're going to get me in a rage over Abrams dumping gravity interdiction in TFA for the second time in one thread!

 

Put simply, back when things were more logical, the Death Star got as close to Yavin IV as it could before being stopped by the planet Yavin's gravity well.  The Yavin IV base was not only difficult to find, but the planet it orbited provided it with an opportunity to spot incoming fleets.



#59
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Even saying that, there is a scene where Hux confidently says "its only a matter of time." So you can easily take that to show that he is so confident that they will eventually run of fuel and be caught that there is no reason to do anything else. Could it have been stated explicitly to deal with that exact complaint "hey Hux why not have a ship jump in front of them" "No need its only a matter of time." I guess, if that helps you out. It wouldn't for me.
 
For me there are just so many inconsistencies in all the movies that are there for plot convienence. This movie included. Hell a major plot point is how the First Order can't penetrate their shields. Other than when they fire into the landing bay to take out Poe's ship and when they fire on the bridge. In those 2 cases the shields seem non existent. Now maybe some one who hates the movie will see me point that out or when I pointed out before how its weird The First Order doesn't attack the Resistance Cruiser in the opening battle and get even more mad at logic problems.
 
I think these things exist in all of the movies. In fact I think stuff like this was stuff we used to kinda make fun of and almost made the movies more endearing. People just take the movies too seriously now though.

Again-- not untrue, and when you can be super entertaining, these things are easily dismissed. But the space chase isn't one of those things. The plot hinges on it for too long and a spotlight is put on it, AND they give examples of how it could be worked around. That's not a minor inconsistency that any movie will have, that is a major logic issue that is already hard to look past. Add in that it makes the movie boring, and it's a thread begging to be pulled.

#60
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I think you are contradicting yourself. Your first sentence there basically says all that matters really is entertainment. So then why does the logic part from the First Order even matter? All that matters is that portion of the movie isn't super exciting or entertaining. 

 

I also want to say Im sure consistent about this. I think some people feel I just blindly love this movie and I do live it. But stuff like this I've never cared about at all. I remember people complaining about how it made no sense for the Falcon to be able to leave lightspeed so close to a plnets surface, I said who cares. This kinda stuff just never affects my enjoyment, or lack there of, of a movie. 

 

Sometimes people have a complaint about a movie, which is fine, but then they add a reason for that complaint that I don't think is valid. Or their dislike of it just makes them dig and dig to find every single thing wrong with it that tehy can. You say the slow speed chase is boring, thats fine. You say its a huge logical issue. I don't think so. You say you don;t like Luke as he is, fine. You say its because from a character perspective there is no chance Luke would behave that way. I don't think so. You just wanted to see the old Luke. 

 

 

Whats funny is I bet if we really compared what we liked and didn't like about the movie, wed have like 80% agreement. And that number may be light. Yet I like the movie much more. 



#61
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Although it's not consistent (because of ship blocking planetary shields in TFA and R1), there are lots on instances in SW where shields block energy weapons but not physical objects like fighters and asteroids. So Kylo and his escort were able to fly inside the shields and do damage. They were able to destroy the bridge because the shielding at the front of the ship had been sacrificed to increase the strength of the shields at the back, and all of this was visible.

(I thought the space chase idea was OK, but I didn't like the mutiny plot or the excursion to Canto Bight)

#62
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The shield on DS2 ships couldnt fly through right? Or else the shield would have no function. That's my point, this stuff is made to fit plot rather than be consistent and sticking to any kind of rules. 



#63
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I think you are contradicting yourself. Your first sentence there basically says all that matters really is entertainment. So then why does the logic part from the First Order even matter? All that matters is that portion of the movie isn't super exciting or entertaining.

 
I'm not being in consistent at all. I'm making three points and you're conflating them.

One, I'm saying it's a sliding scale AND it's subjective. It's certainly possible to be entertained enough that you don't care, but if you're not into it, you're likely to pull logic threads you'd otherwise leave alone. Movies are organic and change from page to screen to post, things are going to slip between the cracks, stuff will fly right by you until you see it in action.

In this example, for me, the movie wasn't good enough to keep me entertained to the level that I was letting things go. I was getting frustrated so my sensors were set to full.

Two, "little things" are easy to forgive. How did the Falcon get to Bespin with no hyperdrive? What exactly was Luke's plan going into Jabba's palace? I don't care even though I know there's logic problems because I was into the stories and these were details not germane to the actual action. There's are WHYs we ask after the fact because the action moved us through the story points quickly and in a fun way.

The chase problem in TLJ is not a little problem that can be waved a way, it literally stalls the action of the film and is a major plot point. Details and plot points are not the same thing.

Three, regardless of any of that, any screenwriter that's close to being professional should know better than to do what Rian did in TLJ. Hell, JJ's writers did it on LOST so frequently I quit watching the show. You don't set up situations that are said to be impossible, then show us how to beat them only when it is convenient to the story. Don't give the audience information that destabilizes your own set-ups.

That's some 101 writing right there. Like I said, I'll never love the space chase, but had they not show Finn and Rey both working around it ON TOP of not giving us a line or anything to say why Hux didn't think to do it, that's flawed plotting, pain and simple.
 
But what do I know...
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#64
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Pointing out errors in science fiction is a staple of watching science fiction. But I've never seen people this up in arms before, which to me is just a symptom of something bigger. Like what Tank said about pulling threads when you're not entertained. It feels like RJ had to hand in this writing assignment which he completed over the weekend with a case of red bull. It's far away from the auteur voice Lucas brought with the first six movies. I desperately miss it.

#65
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Recast Leia


When I first saw this I read it as Racist Leia and thought what an odd and inappropriate idea to save the sequel trilogy. Although I cant imagine recasting her would have a much better reaction than making her racist.
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#66
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The space chase was like taking your foot off the accelerator for an entire portion of the movie. Regardless of the logical inconsistencies. It wasn't fun to watch because nothing was happening. It wasn't exactly tense because I was aware "of course they will get away eventually" so it just dragged. Then, as has been mentioned above, you get the whole Canto Blight thing..... Face palm.

The strength of Rey v Snoke v Ren v Guards and the final act is not enough to make up for the aforementioned slugfest of the space chase and canto blight.

And Tank's point hits the nail on the head. None of my gripes would've mattered had I been entertained from the outset (and that doesn't necessarily mean with action..on the contrary, a slower start might've been beneficial to setting a mood and immersing me...) instead we got a smart ass Poe cracking "your mamma" jokes (which immediately pulled me out of the movie and made me aware of something not feeling right) and a weird bombing run.

#67
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Not sure if this would be possible for Ep 9... but I wish the cast was significantly smaller. And I exclude the Old Three when I mention this.

 

I think half of TLJ's problems were caused by a lack of storytelling focus, and having to fulfill screen time for additional secondary characters. So we wind up having to sit through comic relief Finn, Rose and the Canto Bight sequence. Which is another detraction in theme and tempo from the main questline. 

You know, this is going to sound really controversial but whatever...  I wish Rey was cast as a black girl/woman (as much as I love Daisy Ridley) and Poe was an Asian dude. Then there would be no need for Finn and Rose and Disney would've still hit their ethnic representation goals (in a more meaningful and significant way) whilst not having to stretch the cast needlessly thin. 

 

But its a little late for that now. Still.... a smaller central cast would be better. Maybe more consolidated writing would be enough...


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#68
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But we didn't get that line. If we had, that would have been a nice cover to the hole.

When we see it done by others as the audience we are being told YOU CAN DO THIS. If a valid reason NOT to do it is offered up on the part of the First Order we'd buy it. But we didn't get one, so it doesn't read as ignorance or a mistake on their part, it reads like lazy writing at best, a plot hole at worst.


Did you have a problem with the Death OH SO SLOWLY orbiting Yavin instead of jumping to the other side, which was very convenient to the plot?

#69
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There appears to be a significant difference between Yavin and the Chase. Yavin was approx a thirteen minute climax sequence, whereas the Chase is two thirds of the plot. In addition ANH does not appear, in my recollection, to set up a rule/logic about how things move within its space and then break that rule just because. TLJ however does repeatedly show something is possibile and then ignores that because the plot would end.
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#70
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But we didn't get that line. If we had, that would have been a nice cover to the hole.

When we see it done by others as the audience we are being told YOU CAN DO THIS. If a valid reason NOT to do it is offered up on the part of the First Order we'd buy it. But we didn't get one, so it doesn't read as ignorance or a mistake on their part, it reads like lazy writing at best, a plot hole at worst.

Did you have a problem with the Death OH SO SLOWLY orbiting Yavin instead of jumping to the other side, which was very convenient to the plot?

No, because I was 3 when the movie came out. I fully admit I over analyze as an adult, but having watched ANH three million times as a child it's impossible to judge it clean.

That said, it's the most exciting and fast-paced part of the film so I suspect it falls into my "so entertaining I don't care" column. Notice also, unloke TLJ's chase, once that sequence starts they don't cut away to other storylines.

If somebody thinks the space chase in TLJ is exciting and action-packed, I'm glad it worked for them. It just didn't for me.
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#71
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That's fair. I just think THE CHASE, while too long and under explained, works as an extension of that same arrogance. So I don't consider it a plothole. But that's just me.

#72
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Plot hole. Sh*tty writing. Poor editing.  All the same difference; result is the same. It sucks. 



#73
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I think you are contradicting yourself. Your first sentence there basically says all that matters really is entertainment. So then why does the logic part from the First Order even matter? All that matters is that portion of the movie isn't super exciting or entertaining.

 
I'm not being in consistent at all. I'm making three points and you're conflating them.

One, I'm saying it's a sliding scale AND it's subjective. It's certainly possible to be entertained enough that you don't care, but if you're not into it, you're likely to pull logic threads you'd otherwise leave alone. Movies are organic and change from page to screen to post, things are going to slip between the cracks, stuff will fly right by you until you see it in action.

In this example, for me, the movie wasn't good enough to keep me entertained to the level that I was letting things go. I was getting frustrated so my sensors were set to full.

Two, "little things" are easy to forgive. How did the Falcon get to Bespin with no hyperdrive? What exactly was Luke's plan going into Jabba's palace? I don't care even though I know there's logic problems because I was into the stories and these were details not germane to the actual action. There's are WHYs we ask after the fact because the action moved us through the story points quickly and in a fun way.

The chase problem in TLJ is not a little problem that can be waved a way, it literally stalls the action of the film and is a major plot point. Details and plot points are not the same thing.

Three, regardless of any of that, any screenwriter that's close to being professional should know better than to do what Rian did in TLJ. Hell, JJ's writers did it on LOST so frequently I quit watching the show. You don't set up situations that are said to be impossible, then show us how to beat them only when it is convenient to the story. Don't give the audience information that destabilizes your own set-ups.

That's some 101 writing right there. Like I said, I'll never love the space chase, but had they not show Finn and Rey both working around it ON TOP of not giving us a line or anything to say why Hux didn't think to do it, that's flawed plotting, pain and simple.
 
But what do I know...

 

My guess is Johnson's IMDB page is more impressive than yours. Although yours is more impressive than mine. 

 

And Im not saying it's not flawed. I don't think I've ever said that. My guess is Johnson thought the Canto Bight scenes would keep the excitment level up, but those scenes just aren't quite good enough to really do it. 



#74
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I dont casually drop my imdb page to try and win the arguement, just to say that Im pretty well-versed in what the rules are for structuring screenplays. Rian is as well. But the #1 rule is dont break the rules unless you can do it well. Rian has broken the rules in all his films and it tended to always work out in his favor. This time it didn't.

JJ Abrams also always breaks the rules and is arguably the biggest writer/director/producer working right now. He's the modern day Speilberg. Some people HATE his mystery box, others don't. But he's in a position to be allowed to break convention. And again, when it works, it pays off when it doesn't, I quit watching Lost.

#75
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JJ Abrams also always breaks the rules and is arguably the biggest writer/director/producer working right now. Hes the modern day Speilberg.

I... respectfully disagree... in strong terms.





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