Jump to content

Welcome to Nightly.Net
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

What Episode IX needs to do to save the ST


262 replies to this topic

#26
The Choc

The Choc

    Member

  • Member
  • 8,949 posts

Yeah, thats just one of the criticisms it's hard to wrap my mind around. 



#27
Brando

Brando

    83% Muppet

  • Admin
  • 18,838 posts
I stand corrected. But in my defense, I haven't sat and watched the prequels in a decade at least, and the OT references are things you can infer, but aren't completely spelled out.

I guess my biggest complaint is that it was the focus of the movie.

Technology has been a big point in all of the movies (Death Star, broken Falcon, Death Star, broken ship, clones, crashing ship, Planet Death Star, Death Star, Running on Empty).

This one felt so common and specific that it took me out of the story in a way that none of the other things did. I'd be okay feeling this way if no one else in the world felt the same way. In the end, if I had felt it was well done, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I think the whole "We're being tracked!" storyline didn't need anything else.
  • El Chalupacabra +1 this

#28
El Chalupacabra

El Chalupacabra

    Monster of Mass Destruction

  • Supporters
  • 8,663 posts

I never had a problem with the Resistance being low on fuel, or the  First Order being able to track in hyperspace.  We saw both elements in ANH, like Poe says.

 

Where I had the problem was the slow motion chase crap.  Finn and Rose can hyperspace too and from Space Vegas, yet the First Order can't send ships ahead of the Resistance fleet, and catch them in a pincer movement?  Ridiculous. 


  • Tank and Iceheart +1 this

#29
The Choc

The Choc

    Member

  • Member
  • 8,949 posts

But who says the First Order CAN'T do that, all we know is that they DON'T. They made a mistake. A tactical error. 



#30
Poe Dameron

Poe Dameron

    Member

  • Member
  • 2,485 posts
This one felt so common and specific that it took me out of the story in a way that none of the other things did. I'd be okay feeling this way if no one else in the world felt the same way. In the end, if I had felt it was well done, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I think the whole "We're being tracked!" storyline didn't need anything else.

 

It gave the story a countdown timer.  That's a perfectly justifiable storytelling technique.

 

But the plotholes of the chase itself sorta mess everything up and cause people to scrutinize the details a lot more.  Which causes even non-issues to become issues.  The saddest part is that the problems with that sequence could have so easily been fixed with a minor re-write.


  • El Chalupacabra +1 this

#31
The Choc

The Choc

    Member

  • Member
  • 8,949 posts

I just think it's a trap people fall into "this is what I would do if it were me." Well its not you making that decision as to how the First Order should proceed. Its General Hux who isnt exactly shown as being supremely confident. Whether you think that characterization of him is correct or not, it's certainly not a huge plot hole to think that Hux would not make the correct decision while trying to hunt down the Resistance. 



#32
ShadowDog

ShadowDog

    Supra-Awesome Badass PIE Pimp

  • Member
  • 42,592 posts
Exactly. Characters making a mistake or a bad decision IS NOT A PLOTHOLE. We all make mistakes.

#33
Robin

Robin

    zambingo

  • Validating
  • 524 posts
Its easy to say not doing something in the film was an in-story mistake if it was made by some character and then that is pointed out in-story. Such as in the beginning when Hux or whoever (I forget) demands action to be taken and then the Old Officer bemoans they should have targeted whatever already because Poe is already blowing them away.

However in-story mistakes dont have to be pointed out in story, if they are obviously part of the plot. Such as Apollo Creed taking Rocky lightly, and as such not really training for the fight but instead focusing on promotion and making money. Although, in fairness, I think there is a scene where Duke (Apollos trainer) does get the auidences attention onto this mistake. So... maybe its a bad example here.

That said, in the situation like a pincer movement or something like that, where the audience is going wait why didnt they???? Well, thats hindsight and a plot hole. Such as Qui and Obi running like the Flash willy nilly in TPM, but then Obi cant dash past the shield barriers to stand and fight with Qui against Maul. Thats a plot hole, a failing of logic, that could have been written differently so as to be avoided.
  • El Chalupacabra +1 this

#34
Tank

Tank

    Driver

  • Member
  • 34,422 posts
I know I've said this before, but the fatal flaw of TLJ for me is the great space OJ chase. Using the fuel as a built in time clock is VERY pipe-y to me. The fact that fuel is mentioned in every other movie but is never a plot point does feel odd-- worse it feels forced.

And the fact The first Order doesn't send ships to jump in ahead of the rebels IS a plot hole in my eyes because Finn/Rose and Rey/Chewie both make precision jumps into the chase from other points in the galaxy.

If they show me it's possible to do something they can't get mad when I say it's BS the First Order didn't do it.
  • El Chalupacabra +1 this

#35
The Choc

The Choc

    Member

  • Member
  • 8,949 posts

Honestly, when watching the movie I never did think that until someone else pointed it out afterwards. I actually more thought early in the movie why didn't the First Order seemingly even attempt to attack the Resistance Cruiser which was basically just sitting still in space. The First Order had several Star Destroyers and seemingly don't even give a thought to going after that cruiser, eventhough it essentially is the whole reason they are there.

 

Now maybe someone will read what I just wrote and think "hey, I never thought of that. Thats stupid too!!!" And then they just get dragged down deeper and deeper into negativity.

 

For me though, the bad guys always do dumb crap. In ANH the Empire realizes the Rebellion attack is an actual threat. So why do they do? Send 3 TIE fighters? Why not sit 10 TIE fighters right over the exhaust port. Its like "we analyzed their attack and this exhaust port is an issue? Should be guard it?" "Nah".



#36
El Chalupacabra

El Chalupacabra

    Monster of Mass Destruction

  • Supporters
  • 8,663 posts

I know I've said this before, but the fatal flaw of TLJ for me is the great space OJ chase. Using the fuel as a built in time clock is VERY pipe-y to me. The fact that fuel is mentioned in every other movie but is never a plot point does feel odd-- worse it feels forced.

And the fact The first Order doesn't send ships to jump in ahead of the rebels IS a plot hole in my eyes because Finn/Rose and Rey/Chewie both make precision jumps into the chase from other points in the galaxy.

If they show me it's possible to do something they can't get mad when I say it's BS the First Order didn't do it.

Yeah I think instead of the space chase, they should have done something more like the BSG episode 33  with the Resistance jumping to hyperspace to a rally point, and the First Order appears and is all over them, forcing the Resistance to jump again, and the cycle starts over several times.  



#37
Robin

Robin

    zambingo

  • Validating
  • 524 posts
The exhaust port thing is an in-story mistake, Choc. It is pointed out intentionally to display the Empires hubris.

The opening of TLJ was used that way too, like I noted above, there is literally an officer bemoaning the decisions or lack thereof by Hux.
  • El Chalupacabra +1 this

#38
Tank

Tank

    Driver

  • Member
  • 34,422 posts

Honestly, when watching the movie I never did think that until someone else pointed it out afterwards. I actually more thought early in the movie why didn't the First Order seemingly even attempt to attack the Resistance Cruiser which was basically just sitting still in space. The First Order had several Star Destroyers and seemingly don't even give a thought to going after that cruiser, eventhough it essentially is the whole reason they are there.
 
Now maybe someone will read what I just wrote and think "hey, I never thought of that. Thats stupid too!!!" And then they just get dragged down deeper and deeper into negativity.
 
For me though, the bad guys always do dumb crap. In ANH the Empire realizes the Rebellion attack is an actual threat. So why do they do? Send 3 TIE fighters? Why not sit 10 TIE fighters right over the exhaust port. Its like "we analyzed their attack and this exhaust port is an issue? Should be guard it?" "Nah".


But in that example it was the climax of the movie, it was fast paced, it was persona between Luke and Vader and the Empire wasn't taking the threat THAT seriously.

In TLJ, it's the entire second act of the movie, with cut away conversations, it's slow as hell, Leia is already in a coma and Poe has a filler storyline. Engineered risk isn't risk at all.
  • El Chalupacabra +1 this

#39
The Choc

The Choc

    Member

  • Member
  • 8,949 posts

The "plot hole" element of it could have been fixed by 2 lines of dialogue: 

 

Officer: General Hux should be have Captain So and So's Destroyer make a hyper space jump in front of them?

 

Hux: And allow General So and So to get all the credit for their capture. I think not, they will run out of fuel soon enough.

 

I don't really care about the "plot hole" but that woulda solved that part of it.

 

 

Overall, it may have been better that instead of their gas running out it was that their shields could only hold so long. 



#40
Tank

Tank

    Driver

  • Member
  • 34,422 posts
I don't think there is a way to make it work compelling-- which, again, is to me why it's the fatal flaw of the movie.
  • El Chalupacabra +1 this

#41
The Choc

The Choc

    Member

  • Member
  • 8,949 posts

I'll also add that the "slow speed chase" is the worst aspect of the movie. I'm not defending it overall, I wish he had found a somewhat different way to handle that segment of the movie. I'm just saying the specific complaint that the First Order not jumping ahead of is some sort of crazy logical fail I don't agree with. They simply made a mistake. 



#42
Poe Dameron

Poe Dameron

    Member

  • Member
  • 2,485 posts

I know I've said this before, but the fatal flaw of TLJ for me is the great space OJ chase. Using the fuel as a built in time clock is VERY pipe-y to me. The fact that fuel is mentioned in every other movie but is never a plot point does feel odd-- worse it feels forced.

 

No sarcasm question:  What's the definition of pipe-y?

 

Like I said, I had no problem with them putting a timer on the whole thing.  That feels more generic than forced.

 

Yeah I think instead of the space chase, they should have done something more like the BSG episode 33  with the Resistance jumping to hyperspace to a rally point, and the First Order appears and is all over them, forcing the Resistance to jump again, and the cycle starts over several times.

 

Yeah, that's one easy fix.  Just have them keep going into hyperspace and say that if they keep doing this, they're eventually going to run out of fuel.  Problem solved.

 

Or they could have used an Interdictor Cruiser to trap them, and make it so that ships can't just fly in and out.  Rose and Finn get away with a cloaking device, setting up the use of them to evacuate later.  Though that concept was tossed aside by Abrams for no reason in TFA.

 

Or just have a game of hide and seek where the Resistance is sneaking through asteroids/debris/a nubula/whatever.

 

Point is, this could have been solved to at least not insulting to the audience.  Maybe it still wouldn't have made the most amazingly enticing movie since it went on so long, but at least it wouldn't be eye-roll inducing.

 

I just think it's a trap people fall into "this is what I would do if it were me." Well its not you making that decision as to how the First Order should proceed. Its General Hux who isnt exactly shown as being supremely confident. Whether you think that characterization of him is correct or not, it's certainly not a huge plot hole to think that Hux would not make the correct decision while trying to hunt down the Resistance.

 

You can call it a plothole, or you can call it characters being incredibly stupid to the point of undermining their credibility as threatening villains.  Vader strangled Ozzel and Needa for less.

 

Either way, I can't defend that part of the movie.

 

Honestly, when watching the movie I never did think that until someone else pointed it out afterwards.

 

I did.  I'm sure a lot of a people did as well.


  • El Chalupacabra +1 this

#43
Brando

Brando

    83% Muppet

  • Admin
  • 18,838 posts

This one felt so common and specific that it took me out of the story in a way that none of the other things did. I'd be okay feeling this way if no one else in the world felt the same way. In the end, if I had felt it was well done, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I think the whole "We're being tracked!" storyline didn't need anything else.

 
It gave the story a countdown timer.  That's a perfectly justifiable storytelling technique.
 
But the plotholes of the chase itself sorta mess everything up and cause people to scrutinize the details a lot more.  Which causes even non-issues to become issues.  The saddest part is that the problems with that sequence could have so easily been fixed with a minor re-write.

I'm sure that there are plenty of things with valid storytelling techniques that you just don't entertain you. I'm thinking of ways that it would have worked better for my personal enjoyment. In the end, I think that the movie was just destined to disappoint me. I found every aspect of it to be boring. There was no segment where I felt lost in the story, and I was constantly checking my watch. I like to think that a few small changes would have made me enjoy it. As is, I don't really feel strongly about it. But I feel strongly about the fact that I don't feel strongly about the movie. Being a Star Wars fan has been part of my identity for my entire life from the time I was a toddler. I'm not someone who is mad about what happened. It didn't ruin anything for me. But it also made me realize that a small portion of my identity isn't going to be the same going forward.

The topic is what Ep 9 needs to "save the ST" for those who disliked TLJ. Feel free to do whatever you want, but I don't think that this is tyright venue for effectively telling people that they're wrong.
  • Iceheart and Odine +1 this

#44
The Choc

The Choc

    Member

  • Member
  • 8,949 posts

See, something Fozzie said there just sounds crazy to me. I can't imagine part of my identity is being a Star Wars fan. They are movie that I enjoy seeing and talking about. Im not putting it down, because I guess being a Yankee fan is part of my identity and that is no more important in a general sense than Star Wars. 

 

At some point, even as a huge Yankee fan, you realize its just baseball. It really doesn't matter. The same applies for Star Wars, if you did feel as strongly about the movies now like you did as a toddler or little boy that would be weird. At least to me. If you are looking for that feeling of just pure and total love and infatuating and engrossment and magic and wonder that you experienced when seeing Star Wars as a child. That is never going to happen and in fact it would be strange if it did. 



#45
Brando

Brando

    83% Muppet

  • Admin
  • 18,838 posts
Like I said, it's a small part of my identity. Anything that you feel passionately about is part of your identity, in my opinion. Especially something that has been part of your entire life. The MCU, not so much.

I'm not looking for the same feeling that I had as a kid, but I want to feel something, and would prefer it to be positive.

If the Indians won the World Series and I didn't care, I would also feel really weird about it. At one point, being a Weezer fan was part of who I was, and I spent a ton of time tracking down every bootleg and rare/international single. Then the band moved on and I didn't move in the same direction. Of course, now that I'm close to 40 their music seems pretty immature. So I've completely moved on from that part of my life I'm ok with it, and really don't care. I would imagine that something similar will happen within next year for me with Star Wars, after Episode 9 comes out. Especially since I already don't care at all about Solo, and there was a time where I would have consumed anything Star Wars.

In the grand scheme, none of it matters. But without Star Wars, I wouldn't have been part of Nightly for almost two decades. I wouldn't have bonded with my best friend, even though Star Wars means almost nothing to our relationship now, but it broke the ice.

Being a father, a husband, being Catholic, being a friend, having a group of guys that I meet with twice a month to share deep, intimate parts of our lives, all those things are Central to who I am. But that doesn't mean that there aren't small things that are part of me.
  • Iceheart and El Chalupacabra +1 this

#46
Tank

Tank

    Driver

  • Member
  • 34,422 posts

I know I've said this before, but the fatal flaw of TLJ for me is the great space OJ chase. Using the fuel as a built in time clock is VERY pipe-y to me. The fact that fuel is mentioned in every other movie but is never a plot point does feel odd-- worse it feels forced.

 
No sarcasm question:  What's the definition of pipe-y?
 
Like I said, I had no problem with them putting a timer on the whole thing.  That feels more generic than forced.


Pipe-y as in laying pipe, as in making an obvious straight-forward plan that lacks any tension because it's obvious from every angle.
 
So yeah, generic, which to me is the biggest sin. Especially when there could have been alternatives, like--
 

Yeah I think instead of the space chase, they should have done something more like the BSG episode 33  with the Resistance jumping to hyperspace to a rally point, and the First Order appears and is all over them, forcing the Resistance to jump again, and the cycle starts over several times.

 
Yeah, that's one easy fix.  Just have them keep going into hyperspace and say that if they keep doing this, they're eventually going to run out of fuel.  Problem solved.
 
Or they could have used an Interdictor Cruiser to trap them, and make it so that ships can't just fly in and out.  Rose and Finn get away with a cloaking device, setting up the use of them to evacuate later.  Though that concept was tossed aside by Abrams for no reason in TFA.
 
Or just have a game of hide and seek where the Resistance is sneaking through asteroids/debris/a nubula/whatever.
 
Point is, this could have been solved to at least not insulting to the audience.  Maybe it still wouldn't have made the most amazingly enticing movie since it went on so long, but at least it wouldn't be eye-roll inducing.


ANY of these would have been better. A good ol mousehunt would at least have tension.
  • El Chalupacabra +1 this

#47
The Choc

The Choc

    Member

  • Member
  • 8,949 posts

I just can't watch movies in this manner. I can't watch and just every and anything that doesn't make 100% perfect logical sense to me drive me nuts. I can't sit and think "oh lord why wouldn;t the First Order do this". I just can't, I just don't. I think its just an easy way to end up enjoying nothing. If the First Order didn't send a ship to box in the Resistance, tehy didn't. 

 

It was similar with TFA and the whole "we need to know how the saber got there" "we need to know where the map came from" "we need to now why Artoo turned on". I just didn't care. I don't watch and think "we didn't get this, we didn't get that." I enjoy what we did get. 

 

Now after the movie I may come here and discuss those things, but those discussions will never change my opinion on what we did get and what I like about it. I feel like if I watched movies in this way, I'd like nothing. Star Wars or otherwise. 

 

I could list everything I love about TLJ or TFA or any movie. Then I could list the things I didn't like, in fact alot of people do that. When you read users reviews on here alot of them in fact are broken down "The Good" "The Bad". I just don't think that way. I can't. I just think of all the things I do love about the movie. In the end if there is enough that I love I end up not caring about the stuff I don't like as much. 

 

And it's not just Star Wars, it snot like I have some blindspot and just refuse to acknowledge weaknesses of the movies. If you ever went in the GoT threads people are constantly like "oh how did this character get from here to there or whatever this quickly". And I'm constantly like "yeah,thats true and fair, Im not saying its not but I just don't care."

 

Just like in Thrones I don't care if the movements of characters don't fit exactly right, we got an awesome scene with dragons or whatever. It's the same here, ok maybe the First Order pursuing them doesn't make perfect sense. Who cares at the end we got one of the greatest sequences ever on the Throne Room, we got a pretty damn cool fight in the hanger bay, we got one of the coolest moments in the saga with Holdo's kamikaze mission.



#48
Tank

Tank

    Driver

  • Member
  • 34,422 posts
I agree and disagree.

For me it's how entertained I am. Example-- I love the X-Men movies even though they are a continuity mess. I am so thrilled they even exist and they are so much fun, I don't think about all the little threads I know I could pull.

Pretty much any Marvel movie at this stage is so by the numbers. They all have the same exact structure. But they are so well cast and entertaining, I don't care.

I had a ton of issues with TFA, but it got the SW feels back for me so I let so much of it go. TLJ, I got bored. Once I get bored, it's like a house of cards and I start pulling all those threads. All the SW are full of inconsistencies and logic errors, but it's only the ones that are poorly made and/or boring that fall apart for me.

I'm not a "check your brain at the door" type of guy. I'm just not. Part of that is that my job depends on my ability to take apart movies down a micro level. I can't willfully not do that, but I can be distracted if what I am watching is particularly entertaining or moving, of which TLJ was neither.

Like I said in the TLJ thread, I went in mostly spoiler free and amped. And the first act was great and exciting... and then near the top of act two I said to myself "oh no... this isn't a new set up, this is actually the movie."
  • Iceheart +1 this

#49
The Choc

The Choc

    Member

  • Member
  • 8,949 posts

To me though, its not "The Movie. The movie is Luke/Rey/Kylo. That's the heart of it, thats why we speculated about on here for two years. And Im not really defending the slow speed chase, its my least favorite aspect of the movie, but I guess it just bothers me less than you. For me, although technically the chase continues right until Holdos move, for me it kinda ends as any focus once Finn and Rose leave Canto Bight. At that point pretty much all the action is right back in the same place. From the point where they leave Canto Bight until the end of the movie, which is about 1:10 minutes or almost exactly half the movie, it really is amazing. I mean I can't imagine being bored when they are cutting between the Throne Room, Finn/Rose on the ship and Poe starting his mutiny. 

 

I get that there is a portion of the movie that isn't great or maybe even isn't good. I just think it recovers in such a spectacular way that overall it's a wonderful movie. If that portion of the movie poisons the well for you to the point where the movie can't truly recover in your eyes I can't say you are wrong. I just do somewhat think you are allowing a frustration that the movie "could have been better' to stop you from enjoying so much of the movie that is truly great with some of the very, very best stuff we've ever seen in Star Wars. 



#50
Poe Dameron

Poe Dameron

    Member

  • Member
  • 2,485 posts

I'm not a "check your brain at the door" type of guy. I'm just not. Part of that is that my job depends on my ability to take apart movies down a micro level. I can't willfully not do that, but I can be distracted if what I am watching is particularly entertaining or moving, of which TLJ was neither.

Like I said in the TLJ thread, I went in mostly spoiler free and amped. And the first act was great and exciting... and then near the top of act two I said to myself "oh no... this isn't a new set up, this is actually the movie."

Funny, that's what I liked about the movie.  That it actually went out there and challenged the viewer.  Not that it's the theatrical version of The Sound and the Fury, but I much preferred it to the genuine "check your brain at the door" films like TFA or even Solo.

 

Now, was the chase scene and Canto Bight a problem?  Yeah.  Stuck in-between some of the best work Star Wars has ever done are two sequences that are treading water and not even doing it in any particularly interesting way.  It's a shame because this movie was a layup away from laying a stranglehold on the title of 3rd best in the series.





Reply to this topic