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What Episode IX needs to do to save the ST


RamonAtila
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For me one of the main themes of the ST is the idea that these elite institutions are not good, even if they are well intentioned. The Jedi were well meaning, but they failed in training their most important student even, the Chosen One, and they allowed the Sith to take over right under their noses. Luke, who tried to start a new formal Jedi Order, also failed. The idea is power to the people, they don't need to be deemed as worthy at birth by some weird sect of warrior monks. They don't need to be related to the Messiah.

 

The will of the force clearly had more to do with Anakin's choices than any Jedi instructor. In TPM, Obi-Wan argued (wth Jinn) that the Jedi saw Anakin as dangerous (meaning the handwriting was the on the wall, and he only changed his mind out of sympathy for / wanting to honor Jinn's dying wish), while 13 or so years later, Mace flat out said did not trust Anakin (which was more than a reference to his relationship to Palpatine). In short, Mace was waiting for the ticking time bomb to finally explode, justifying the council's initial refusal to train Anakin in TPM.

 

That's simply laying out character markers all but screaming that Anakin was destined to fail no matter what the Jedi did or did not do. Luke never blamed Yoda, Obi-Wan or the Jedi in general for his father's fate in ROTJ. He--as part of the constant Lucas theme of self responsibility--only looked to Vader as the source of his own fall to the dark side, not any imagined failing on the part of Luke's mentors. Luke's TLJ complaint about the Jedi was pulled out of nowhere--or Johnson's revisionist butt all to justify why the ST's Mary Sue did not need training like all other force practitioners, yet was still superior to everyone else in using the force.

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And really Rey fails in her training. When Luke is telling her to reach out and all that, she immediately goes to the darkness. Luke tells her to resist. Later she can't resist it even to the point of physically going into that dark place. What she sees down there prompts her to have that force connection with Kylo where they touch hands. Which is what really convinces her Kylo can be turned. Her failure to resist the cave is what leads to her failure later in the movie.

 

 

I'm going to go ahead and preface this with saying that this is a SUPER personal assessment for reasons I will get into, and that the majority of the world won't be picking up what I'm dropping here...

 

 

I belong to a spiritual practice that does a ton of meditation (I'm not Buddhist). Doing this meditation, while going down is fine at first (picturing yourself walking down a staircase is a common trick to teach people how to reach the meditative state), you're then supposed to go up. I keep going down. I've tried going up, and "the light" is just not for me. No one who knows me would call me evil. Just differently attuned. I even tap this energy to do things like environmental activism.

 

The meditation that Rey does to touch the Force, the experience in the cave... I have actually really done those things. Lucas based The Force on a number of real religious beliefs and spiritual practices.

 

So, as someone who has a very different understanding of this concept that, say, 98% of Star Wars's audience, it's just too simplistic for me.

 

And I certainly don't feel like a failure at spirituality, just because I go different places than I'm "supposed to."

 

I'm really hoping that ultimately, the message with Rey is that "light" and "dark" are artificial divisions of the same neutral energy force, and that evil people using "The Dark Side" are evil because they're trash people, not because of the way they interact with The Force.

 

... but, like you said, Star Wars loves it's simple good vs. evil evangelical storytelling, so I'm sure I'll be disappointed.

 

 

 

For me one of the main themes of the ST is the idea that these elite institutions are not good, even if they are well intentioned. The Jedi were well meaning, but they failed in training their most important student even, the Chosen One, and they allowed the Sith to take over right under their noses. Luke, who tried to start a new formal Jedi Order, also failed. The idea is power to the people, they don't need to be deemed as worthy at birth by some weird sect of warrior monks. They don't need to be related to the Messiah.

 

This is why I keep coming back to a kid's movie as an over-analyzing adult.

 

 

 

My point about the nose to the canvas was probably poorly explained. I get that by looking closely you can see the brush strokes and appreciate the craft and talent of the artist. Just like with a movie if you break it down you can try to see the craft of all the many people who are involved making a movie. I understand that and I'm not saying we shouldn't look closely at Star Wars movies.

 

But, I'm sure you'd agree, that looking that closely at a work of art can't be the only way to appreciate it. You also have to step back and see it as a whole. I think some people arent doing that at all. They are looking so closely and IMO looking for certain things that they want ot be there or think should be there. When maybe they need to take a step back, see the whole thing, realize the big picture of what the movies are trying to do and then go back, look closely and see if the movie is doing what it actually is trying to do rather than what you think it should be trying to do.

 

Now a person could do that and either just not like what the movie is trying to do. Or they could still think they failed at doing it.

 

It sounds like you're a general, broad, big picture kind of thinker. I'm very much a detail-oriented thinker. I don't want to just sit back and enjoy a movie, I want to interact with it, and analyzing the story is a huge part of my enjoyment of it.

 

I don't think anyone would disagree that TLJ was too long and poorly paced. Once you lose a detail-oriented person's focus, we're going to start pointing out flaws out of sheer boredom. Think Benedict Cumberbatch's Sherlock Holmes for an extreme (or maybe not so extreme in some cases) example.

 

And, frankly, I don't think a lot of these armchair critics hated the movie as much as you might think. Picking apart a story is the height of entertainment for us detailphiles.

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Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to question your reading of the movie, I meant that "Honestly?" as "Seriously, get this, can you believe that this is the first time I've realized this, and it had to be spelled out in no uncertain terms, I mean, wtf?!?"

 

Which I realize now did not work without vocal inflection, my bad.

I just wanted to explain where I got my timeline, since there's some disagreement about it. But I think that it's pretty clear. The only question is how long it took Rey to get to the Lonely Island

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For me one of the main themes of the ST is the idea that these elite institutions are not good, even if they are well intentioned. The Jedi were well meaning, but they failed in training their most important student even, the Chosen One, and they allowed the Sith to take over right under their noses. Luke, who tried to start a new formal Jedi Order, also failed. The idea is power to the people, they don't need to be deemed as worthy at birth by some weird sect of warrior monks. They don't need to be related to the Messiah.

 

The will of the force clearly had more to do with Anakin's choices than any Jedi instructor. In TPM, Obi-Wan argued (wth Jinn) that the Jedi saw Anakin as dangerous (meaning the handwriting was the on the wall, and he only changed his mind out of sympathy for / wanting to honor Jinn's dying wish), while 13 or so years later, Mace flat out said did not trust Anakin (which was more than a reference to his relationship to Palpatine). In short, Mace was waiting for the ticking time bomb to finally explode, justifying the council's initial refusal to train Anakin in TPM.

 

That's simply laying out character markers all but screaming that Anakin was destined to fail no matter what the Jedi did or did not do. Luke never blamed Yoda, Obi-Wan or the Jedi in general for his father's fate in ROTJ. He--as part of the constant Lucas theme of self responsibility--only looked to Vader as the source of his own fall to the dark side, not any imagined failing on the part of Luke's mentors. Luke's TLJ complaint about the Jedi was pulled out of nowhere--or Johnson's revisionist butt all to justify why the ST's Mary Sue did not need training like all other force practitioners, yet was still superior to everyone else in using the force.

 

Obi Wan seemed to think he bore some responsibility for what happened to Anakin.

 

Also, Luke's views aren't allowed to change over the course of 3 decades?

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Ice,

 

I actually agree with your thinking that evil people are just evil. The Force is not inherently evil or good. It just is. It's how you use it. In the long run though using the force for an evil purpose has a corrosive effect.

 

Did TLJ suffer from some pacing issues? Yeah, Ive said that plenty of times. It;s not a perfect movie. I never said it was. I'd say the 2nd quarter of the movie could have been cleaned up a bit. Basically from Leia's space walk to when Finn and Rose leave Canto Bight. It's almost exactly the 2nd quarter of the movie. For me though I love the stuff on the island the whole movie. It's just a couple of the segments surrounding Canto Bight. It's the scene where they talk to Maz, then the 2 sequences that actually take place on Canto Bight. Even those though, which are my least favorite of the movie, I still find things that I like. I love the music when they first start riding the horse things. I love the look on the kids faces when Rose shows they are Resistance.

 

And as for your last point, I don't think some of the arm chair critics hate the movie as much as they, themselves, think. Let alone me. That's really my whole point. Go through the movie with a fine tooth comb and find everything you don't like until you work yourself into a frenzy. Thats all well and good. What Im saying is also go back and just enjoy the movie too.

 

There was someone on this board who loved the movie after like his 2nd or 3rd viewing. Only a few weeks later, he hated it. I can't get that. I understand an opinion changing, in fact it would be odd if it didn't. BUt that quickly and that severely? To me it can't just be a normal over time changing of opinion. There is something else going on. All Im saying is "hey you found alot you dont like when you gave it though, thats fine. But also at some point you loved the movie, there has to be stuff in there that caused that. Go and, once in a while, concentrate on that stuff rather than dwell on the negative.

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Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to question your reading of the movie, I meant that "Honestly?" as "Seriously, get this, can you believe that this is the first time I've realized this, and it had to be spelled out in no uncertain terms, I mean, wtf?!?"

 

Which I realize now did not work without vocal inflection, my bad.

I just wanted to explain where I got my timeline, since there's some disagreement about it. But I think that it's pretty clear. The only question is how long it took Rey to get to the Lonely Island

 

I doubt it took her long based on how fast hyperspace seems to be in the movies now. TLJ begins before TFA ends. We get the whole opening battle then cut back to essentually the end of TFA. So in terms of actual time from TFA to TLJ it's actually negative. Zero time has passed and in fact we go back to before the ending of TFA.

 

The question I suppose could be how long is it in TFA from when Rey leaves the Resistance until when she arrives on the island. Unless the Resistance is very dumb and didn't start their evacuation preperations quickly, I'd say Rey leaving the base to the start of TLJ would basically be as long as it would take the Resistance to pack up their base.

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What if Reys mother was Lukes love interest? Reys mother for whatever reason felt like she had to get away from the center of attention, so to speak. Whether for safety or philosophy differences what have you. All that was known of Rey by Luke, Leia, Han and Ben et al was that this woman was pregnant with a girl.

 

So... Baby Mom leaves. Luke becomes distracted, perhaps beginning his path of doubt about his ability to teach. Snoke then seizes on the opportunity and courts Ben. Ben falls, Luke is defeated, Han and Leia are so distraught... after initial attempts to turn Ben back themselves their hope is exstinguished and their patience and love for each other as well.

 

Reys vision of her on Jakku is perhaps not seeing her parents abandon her, but is instead a bounty hunter having captured or defeated her mother and father figure. Rey wasnt abandoned, but left and not by choice but in a manner similar to Jyn Erso.

 

That easily weaves into everything shown in the films so far, especially given their short span of time between them, giving a credible explanation for why no one character has as of yet pieced it together. Perhaps it will be knowledge Luke acquires now he has become one with the Force. Perhaps this is why the Force and its messengers (such as Obi-Wan calling out to Rey in TFA) has been trying so hard to wake her up, its not that her lineage makes her special its that not knowing her past gives her no foundation to stand on. This message/lesson (so to speak) then is the mirror to Bens desire to tear down the past to build a future.

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I'm pretty sure it's just going to be what it's already stated to be many times in the TFA and TLJ. Remember Kylo doesn't tell Rey about her parents. He says something like "should i tell you or do you already know, have you always known" Rey tearfully says "they were nobody" Kylo then further elaborates about their drunken ways.

 

Rey's parents were no one of importance. It's the single best decision they've made about the sequels thus far.

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I thought of that in the above. It is one line that is super ambiguous and doesnt invalidate what I wrote. Nor does what I wrote invalidate that line. Ben still is acting along his interests and goal and that line is still true for the emotion it carries with it for Rey based on her understanding about her past.

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I agree in the sense that it doesn't change the moment for Rey. But I do believe what I've written a couple times about the theme of the elite being taken down by the everyday people is important. Plus Daisy has said that JJ told her she was a nobody when she asked him while filming TFA.

 

Really, there is nothing in the movies to make us think there was some huge revelation about Rey other than the fact that we thought there would be.

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The entire mystery box about Rey was who is she. Luke himself reiterated it in TLJ. The answer we got was a one sided point of view by a character that wants the past to die. What other line or line of attack from him could possibly have been more fitting than telling Rey that her past means nothing and that she is a nobody, implying he is the future that matters?

 

And I agree the message about rising up against corrupt authority is totally in the films too, I mean thats the basis of the Star Wars universe. Its also why my original thought in this thread was to develop splintering within the two warring divisions and that the splintering leads both to a peace treaty for some and destruction for others.

 

Afterthought: What JJ told Daisy might not be important if we consider, if my recollection is correct, that the big reveal of ESB was filmed with the actor saying that Obi-Wan killed Lukes father. I think Mark knew at that moment, but it was guarded for obvious reasons. If, as it seems, this new trilogy had a basic (but flexible) outline when they started, it could have been easier or wiser just to keep certain reveals off the books so to speak until necessary.

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I just think at this point some new revelation about her adds zero to the story. The reason the revelation works in Empire is not just cause of the shock but because it's the very last think Luke would want to hear. Same thing applies here. The next movie should be about her accepting this truth and dealing with it, not another revelation.

 

Like I said earlier, the revelation was not made by Kylo. She says it herself. Then Kylo elaborates. I guess that is a technicality, but I don't think it was done without purpose. Kylo just says "Do you want to know the truth about your parents? Or have you always known?" Rey tearfully responds "they were nobody". Then Kylo mentions the specifics about her being sold. But Kylo does not reveal to her that they were nobody. Rey realized that on her own.

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Thats true, of course, but again it all falls in line with what is known at the time. Emotions that characters had come to terms with at that point, and mirrors the desire to burn away the past by the villain. It however could run contrary to what the Force could be shown to be saying to Rey when all her visions are considered in a state of mind that is not under duress. Even her cave vision, where she wants to desperately discover something, instead is a mirror that shows her only what she knows, what she clings to, what she later reveals to Ben that she is nobody... the cave vision shows her past and future is her and indentical hers. There is no change, no growth, nothing. This is another visual which mirrors Bens goal and failure. Not knowing the past, ignoring the past, likely inhibits the future.

 

Afterthought: To be clear when I said Luke would gain that knowledge when he became one with the Force, I am not saying it gets written that he just tells Rey. This would be a key contemplative moment for Rey, perhaps sitting in mediation, when she starts to piece it together. Perhaps similar to Luke contemplating Leias relation. Hes quietly thinking, listening to and chatting with the Force, with Obi-Wan, and that information is discovered in that process. Admittedly it is a pretty bonk bonk on the head moment for Luke in RotJ, but he is the one that makes the final connection and it is a key moment that both provided Luke with temptation to fight Vader to death and perhaps part of the reason he found the strength to stand down.

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But is she clinging to that? It seems more to me that she is clinging to her parents being somebody. She says she is nobody but we also know she spent most of TFA truly thinking they were coming back. She may not have thought her parents were of any super importance but she at least thought they were good, loving people who had some good reason to leave her and were coming back. That seems to me what she is clinging too. Not that her parents were nobody.

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I dont disagree with that. I just think her later conclusion, and her mirror vision having revealed nothing to her right in a moment when it looked like it would, falls in line with and is fueled by her clinging to that ideal and not wanting to truly face the past.

 

My parents were awesome and loved me, they will come back.

 

My parents were no one and abandoned me, only I matter.

 

Those are two extremes, with the possible reality being in the middle.

 

The cave vision is also fueled at a time when she is in emotional conflict over her expectations for what Luke should have been or should do. This then could be further fueling her revelation with Ben. Luke wasnt awesome, he failed and did nothing. My parents werent awesome, they were nothing.

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I get totally that, I just feel it is a face value interpretation which provides little gravitas to be worked with in the next installment. Im trying to say this proposed concept does not invalidate what has been shown, but deepens it. The concept provides an emotional arc for Rey to travel through that mirrors her antagonists failure. Right now, through these two films, Rey went from her past matters to only she matters, her past is nothing, that is literally Kylo Rens viewpoint about life. These two films extreme opposing points practically demand there must be a middle point. The truths Rey clings to dominate her actions and will extrapolate out to a mindset alignment with self-centered Kylo Ren if she doesnt come to terms with the middle ground reality of her past.

 

Afterthought: This also provides Rey with an avenue to defeat Kylo Ren other than just hacking at him with a lightsaber. It gives Rey the position and ability, from her own growth, to argue to Kylo that the past matters and he has to incorporate it into himself. That he focused on one aspect, Vader and the dark side, and decided that was the truth. She can then echo Obi-Wan from ANH, Yoda from ESB and RotJ and Luke from TLJ that it... life and the Force... is all so much more than just our individual perspective.

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But is she clinging to that? It seems more to me that she is clinging to her parents being somebody. She says she is nobody but we also know she spent most of TFA truly thinking they were coming back.

Do we know that?

 

Maz Kanata: Dear child. I see your eyes. You already know the truth. Whomever you're waiting for on Jakku, they're never coming back.

 

That line fits remarkably well with the TLJ revelation where it's not Kylo Ren who makes the revelation, but Rey herself:

 

Kylo Ren: Do you want to know the truth about your parents? Or have you always known? You've just hidden it away. You know the truth. Say it. Say it.

 

Rey: They were nobody.

 

Both movies make pretty clear that Rey was in denial, or telling herself a fairy tale, about her parents.

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But is she clinging to that? It seems more to me that she is clinging to her parents being somebody. She says she is nobody but we also know she spent most of TFA truly thinking they were coming back.

Do we know that?

 

Maz Kanata: Dear child. I see your eyes. You already know the truth. Whomever you're waiting for on Jakku, they're never coming back.

 

That line fits remarkably well with the TLJ revelation where it's not Kylo Ren who makes the revelation, but Rey herself:

 

Kylo Ren: Do you want to know the truth about your parents? Or have you always known? You've just hidden it away. You know the truth. Say it. Say it.

 

Rey: They were nobody.

 

Both movies make pretty clear that Rey was in denial, or telling herself a fairy tale, about her parents.

 

You are right, I worded what I said poorly. She is lying to herself but she doesn't really know it. Deep down she knows the truth but in the moment she does think they are coming back.

 

I shouldn't have put the word truly in there, but I think the point of the post stands. She is clinging to that belief.

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I'm wondering what the episode IX version of ROTS' 'you were supposed to be the chosen one' and ROTJ's 'i am a Jedi like my father before me.' will be. Such a line for Rey would do so much in defining what she went through for three movies and give closure to people's feeling she was a Mary Sue or not.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

If Adam driver were just a few years older (36 y/o), and Rey's character just a few years younger (18 y/o), I think it would have been interesting if Rey was a force-amnesiac, and Kylo was her father, and it was Luke who wiped her mind and placed her on Jakku to hide her. Thus explaining everything: why Kylo wants to train her/convert her and why Rey wants to redeem Kylo (something Vader failed to do to Luke, and something Luke did for Vader), Rey being powerful because she is descendant of a Skywalker, why Han and Leia don't immediately recognize her, why Luke doesn't want to train her, why the lightsaber calls to her, etc,etc.

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If Adam driver were just a few years older (36 y/o), and Rey's character just a few years younger (18 y/o), I think it would have been interesting if Rey was a force-amnesiac, and Kylo was her father, and it was Luke who wiped her mind and placed her on Jakku to hide her. Thus explaining everything: why Kylo wants to train her/convert her and why Rey wants to redeem Kylo (something Vader failed to do to Luke, and something Luke did for Vader), Rey being powerful because she is descendant of a Skywalker, why Han and Leia don't immediately recognize her, why Luke doesn't want to train her, why the lightsaber calls to her, etc,etc.

Do we really need another trilogy where the bad guy is the good guys father?

 

Here is the fact: Alot of people are craving some kind of logical or plausible reason for Rey's uncanny powers. Whether that be some kind of pedigree where her parent(s) are incredibly strong in the Force. Or though some kind of intensive training or through learning from failures. Thing is not only are they not getting this the movies are actually actively saying that she does not in fact need any of those things. It's like they just didn't put it in there haphazardly. It's completely with purpose to show that not only Rey, but anyone, doesn't need to have powerful parents or go to fancy Jedi college to be powerful.

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