Why the difference in opinion between critics and fans on TLJ

[The Choc]

I woke up with Star Wars running through my head, not sure if this could be called a hot take (as they say in the press or sports or wherever), but I suddenly thought the ST could have made an astonishingly brave and perhaps valid choice to have had Luke dead from the start.

 

Yeah. Dead. Not missing. Dead.

 

So then the push isnt to find Luke and have Rey trained. Its oh ****, how can Rey get trained (opening up new ideas about how the Force can work... Awakening so to speak). And then Luke having been killed is the reason all this stuff is occurring, and as the story unfolds we learn how he was killed and why.

 

In fact, TFA would only need one change... no Luke on Water World. Rey shows up and its in ruins. Credits.

I would have liked Luke to have not been there, that woulda been bad ass actually.

 

I actually have said this before, a mistake TFA makes is saying its a map to Luke. It opens up dumb questions like "why would Luke leave a map to himself?" Hell, why would the First Order have it from the Imperial archives? The map is actually a map to the First Jedi Temple, where Luke is hoped to be. That way there is some drama, some quesiton as to if Luke will actually be there.

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

I woke up with Star Wars running through my head, not sure if this could be called a hot take (as they say in the press or sports or wherever), but I suddenly thought the ST could have made an astonishingly brave and perhaps valid choice to have had Luke dead from the start.

 

Yeah. Dead. Not missing. Dead.

 

So then the push isnt to find Luke and have Rey trained. Its oh ****, how can Rey get trained (opening up new ideas about how the Force can work... Awakening so to speak). And then Luke having been killed is the reason all this stuff is occurring, and as the story unfolds we learn how he was killed and why.

 

In fact, TFA would only need one change... no Luke on Water World. Rey shows up and its in ruins. Credits.

I like that idea.

 

You know, once I had a fleeting idea that was kind of similar. I thought that it would have been cool to reveal that the reason Luke couldn't leave Ahch To with Rey was he was already dead, and had actually been killed by Kylo when Luke and he fought (but no one knew for sure...Luke was just missing), and it is revealed that Rey was interacting with Luke's ghost the whole time.

[ShadowDog]

I like it too.

[Tank]

Wow, yeah.

 

Like if Luke had already become one with the Force, and HE was the one that caused the awakening in Rey, and led her to Ach-To to find the library...

[ShadowDog]

That would have solved a lot of problems.

[Guest]

Is there anything in the movie that contradicts it? Other than Luke wanting to destroy the books? Which is really part of his reaction to Rey's openness to the Dark Side?

[The Choc]

Im not saying it wouldnt work, but it just changes so much. The Force Awakens is a fun, crowd pleasing type movie. Not showing Luke at the end woulda been tough. Even if he's just not there, people woulda felt let down and disappointed. Plus then it would have just lead to rampant speculation before VIII. To then just have him found to be dead at the start of VIII would really, really have disappointed people. I guess you could mitigate this by showing Luke to be dead somehow on Act To, but thats even a bigger downer at the end of TFA.

 

The only way to do it would have been to have Luke's ghost waiting for Rey rather than Luke himself. That woulda been pretty cool.

[Tank]

Well-- if he wad dead he wouldn't be fishing and drinking alien titty milk. I also think if he were one with the force he wouldn't be as mad and defeated as he is.

[James Madison]

I woke up with Star Wars running through my head, not sure if this could be called a hot take (as they say in the press or sports or wherever), but I suddenly thought the ST could have made an astonishingly brave and perhaps valid choice to have had Luke dead from the start.

 

Yeah. Dead. Not missing. Dead.

 

So then the push isnt to find Luke and have Rey trained. Its oh ****, how can Rey get trained (opening up new ideas about how the Force can work... Awakening so to speak). And then Luke having been killed is the reason all this stuff is occurring, and as the story unfolds we learn how he was killed and why.

 

In fact, TFA would only need one change... no Luke on Water World. Rey shows up and its in ruins. Credits.

I share your view. A problem with the ST was always going to be Luke. Luke would inevitably dominate the film. Abrams said this is why he didnt introduce Luke until the end of TFA.

 

Rian Johnson had to choose between a Scylla and Charybdis in his choice of how to present Luke in TLJ. I think he also realized Luke had the potential to eat up the movie. Who the hell cares about Rey, weve got Luke back in the game.

 

If Luke leaves the island to confront the First Order, everyone takes a backseat to him, including Rey, who to this point in the story has been developed parallel to a Luke from ANH. Involving Luke in the fight renders the rest, including Rey, a footnote, This isnt desirable.

 

Take Luke off the island and put him into the game, then hes expected to whip some a$$, and a lot of fans will want to see him display his power, demonstrate hes the baddest mamba jamba in the universe, Ren and Snoke are childs play. This doesnt happen, hes ruined Luke.

 

So, Rian Johnson writes a creative script in which Luke doesnt overshadow Rey and the others importance to the story, stays on the island, but shows off his power. This was a smart play.

 

Luke was always the 1 ton elephant in the room potentially crowding out everyone else.

[Poe Dameron]

 

 

I share your view. A problem with the ST was always going to be Luke. Luke would inevitably dominate the film. Abrams said this is why he didnt introduce Luke until the end of TFA.

 

Never bought that. I think they just fanboyed themselves into paralysis to the detriment of their movie.

[ShadowDog]

Well-- if he wad dead he wouldn't be fishing and drinking alien titty milk. I also think if he were one with the force he wouldn't be as mad and defeated as he is.

Different mythos, but Bruce Willis thought he was interacting with all kinds of shit in 6th Sense. You could fan wank this.

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

Is there anything in the movie that contradicts it? Other than Luke wanting to destroy the books? Which is really part of his reaction to Rey's openness to the Dark Side?

 

Well-- if he wad dead he wouldn't be fishing and drinking alien titty milk. I also think if he were one with the force he wouldn't be as mad and defeated as he is.

In addition to that, at the end of TLJ, Rey tells Leia she senses Luke has crossed over (paraphrasing), and Leia agrees. That right there indicates they sense his life force has slipped away.

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

Wow, yeah.

 

Like if Luke had already become one with the Force, and HE was the one that caused the awakening in Rey, and led her to Ach-To to find the library...

That certainly would have explained the whole "Luke's lightsaber calling to Rey even though she is not a Skywalker in TFA" mystery box.

[Guest]

 

 

Is there anything in the movie that contradicts it? Other than Luke wanting to destroy the books? Which is really part of his reaction to Rey's openness to the Dark Side?

Well-- if he wad dead he wouldn't be fishing and drinking alien titty milk. I also think if he were one with the force he wouldn't be as mad and defeated as he is.

In addition to that, at the end of TLJ, Rey tells Leia she senses Luke has crossed over (paraphrasing), and Leia agrees. That right there indicates they sense his life force has slipped away.

I wish that Yoda hadn't showed up in the movie. One thing that I liked about the EU was the idea of the Force ghosts crossing over, which happened in the opening chapters of Heir to the Empire.

 

New head canon: Luke was actually dead during TLJ. When he said he came to the island to die, he meant that he came to kill himself after giving in to despair. But his spirit couldn't move on, and he was trapped in a form of purgatory until he could repent and remove his attachment to despair by standing up to Kylo. Then he became one with the Force.

[Tank]

Purgatory- needing to have a physical body sustained on alien titty milk.

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

Drinking green space manatee milk is Luke's punishment for being out of character and pulling a saber on Kylo.

[Guest]

Voldemort had to drink unicorn blood. Luke has to drink space milk.

[Tank]

That milk didn’t come from space, Brando. There was a very clear and obvious nipple.

[Guest]

Space is Luke's name for her. Because he loves to fly his X-Wing into space, if you know what I mean.

[Tank]

I THINK I DO

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

 

 

I wish that Yoda hadn't showed up in the movie. One thing that I liked about the EU was the idea of the Force ghosts crossing over, which happened in the opening chapters of Heir to the Empire.

Yeah, having Yoda show up and admonish Luke for learning nothing after spending nearly 40 years as a Jedi knight and master seemed forced, and while I can't quite put my finger on it, seemed off somehow. I don't mind Yoda showing up, but I personally think it would have worked better if Luke actually called to Yoda for advice, Yoda appearing, but also establishing Yoda will be soon joining the Force after he gives Luke one last bit of advice. But you know LFL won't do that because they want to milk Yoda and any other droid, guy in a mask, or creature character for as long as they can.

 

 

As it was, Yoda showing up was kind of pointless: Luke was about to burn the tree, Yoda stops him, gives Luke a tongue lashing, then calls down the thunder to burn the tree. The only thing that was accomplished was making Luke appear incompetent.

 

As for force ghosts moving on from the EU, I also agree that force ghosts should be finite, and become one with the force and disappear after a certain amount of time.

[The Choc]

I think you are missing the scene a bit, Luke runs up to burn the tree. He stops and hesitates, he just cant do it. He wasn't going to do it. Then Yoda shows up and is like "yeah, screw it burn it down." But Luke was not going to burn it down. In fact when Yoda does burn it down Luke tries to run in to save the books.

[James Madison]

 

 

I wish that Yoda hadn't showed up in the movie. One thing that I liked about the EU was the idea of the Force ghosts crossing over, which happened in the opening chapters of Heir to the Empire.

Yeah, having Yoda show up and admonish Luke for learning nothing after spending nearly 40 years as a Jedi knight and master seemed forced, and while I can't quite put my finger on it, seemed off somehow. I don't mind Yoda showing up, but I personally think it would have worked better if Luke actually called to Yoda for advice, Yoda appearing, but also establishing Yoda will be soon joining the Force after he gives Luke one last bit of advice. But you know LFL won't do that because they want to milk Yoda and any other droid, guy in a mask, or creature character for as long as they can.

 

 

As it was, Yoda showing up was kind of pointless: Luke was about to burn the tree, Yoda stops him, gives Luke a tongue lashing, then calls down the thunder to burn the tree. The only thing that was accomplished was making Luke appear incompetent.

 

As for force ghosts moving on from the EU, I also agree that force ghosts should be finite, and become one with the force and disappear after a certain amount of time.

Was it forced? I didnt perceive the scene as forced.

 

I took the scene as Yoda admonishing Luke he shouldnt be sitting on his ass and doing nothing when when the Fing universe is about to be engulfed by the dark side and, right now, in the moment, he could have done something about it, pass on what have learned to Rey. Instead, he was looking to the horizon, the future, his death as opposed to being there, living there, in the moment, in the circumstances.

 

This served the purpose of Luke, dare say it, finding a bit of the old Luke in himself from the OT, the Luke who was involved actively. It also served the point that Johnson wanted to make, which was the old stuff is important, very important, the Jedi are important, they are needed, and Luke just needed a wake up from Yoda.

[Guest El Chalupacabra]

Let's agree to disagree on that one. I didn't hate the scene. I'm just saying something about the scene is off to me. I can't even precisely identify what it is that bothers me. It just comes off as weird to me, and really seems unnecessary. That is, unless its intent is to establish force ghosts are still a thing, and lay groundwork for Luke to appear in Episode 9. If that is the intent, then I think it could have been done in a less clunky way.

[James Madison]

I understand the weirdness aspect. Undoubtedly, there were other approaches Johnson couldve taken to achieve the same result of Luke realizing his decision making, specifically repudiating any notion of training Rey.

 

But choosing to use Yoda made sense, at least to me. First, for a movie flirting with the notion of burning down the old house to erect a new one over it, but purposefully ending with the old house in tact, bringing back a relic from the OT, Yoda, fit the overall theme of the movie. Similarly, Luke, to an extent reverting to the Luke of the OT, once again is consistent with where the movie ends, of the old being preserved.

 

Luke in the LJ, is obstinate. Nobody can persuade him to leave the island and come to anyones rescue. Neither can anyone induce him to train someone to be a Jedi, not even Rey although every indication is she is supposed to be there, its the will of the force for her to be there with Luke.

 

But a visit from the master, the teacher, someone Luke is fond of, admires, looks up to, and willing to loom for guidance, and wisdom, can get his attention, make him realize hes acted unwisely.

 

I get your point, Yodas appearance feels forced, a lets find a place for him to appear in the script. Oh yes, a rah, rah, get off your ass speech to Luke, similar to the OT.

 

But given the theme of the movie, Lukes obstinate disposition, Yoda appearing to Luke worked, and didnt feel quite as forced to me. But to each their own of course, none of what I said can or should change how you feel about the movie on this point.