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Why the difference in opinion between critics and fans on TLJ


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Everything you're saying makes sense. I'm actually going to do it myself if my latest and last filmmaking project (a webseries) fails. This project failing would cap 14 years of nothing but abject failure in the business and that's enough for me. I'm leaving the business and the internet forever.

 

So I can relate to Luke. Too many straight years of personal and professional failure will break anybody, even Luke.

 

My issue with Luke ghosting though is he left the problem he'd created for other people to deal with. That's a dick move. You can't do that and I don't believe Luke would.

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I have only skimmed through the last few posts after discussion resumed about how so many people hated TLJ and I just wanted to step back in and mention that I actually provided data from a source tha

Thanks Tank! I would hate it if I missed one of his deep and meaningful posts.

To start off, you clarified that you weren't going for the Grey Jedi thing, which is what I thought.   Keeping with what was set up by JJ, which I think was all about the mystery box and not about the

 

 

Furthermore, if Luke was really running away to end the Jedi, he didn't bother to tell anyone? Not tell Leia or Han? "Hey, don't come looking for me." Just he's up and gone?

 

I left Facebook about a month ago and only told my nearest and dearest privately so they could keep me accountable (not something I'd expect Luke to burden Han and Leia with, especially since his reason for leaving was to atone for failing them and his nephew). I ghosted mostly because I remember how much everyone hated the "I'M LEAVING FOREVER!" ploy for attention threads that were allllllll over Star Wars Chicks back in the day, and I didn't want to give those optics.

 

But then my phone broke and I lost all my contacts. So, I went back to Facebook while my phone was being fixed, so I could recoup my contacts list and not go completely dark. And I told everyone why I had left while asking for help with my missing contacts. And took some flack for making ANY public announcement whatsoever, looking like I'm so high-and-mighty-and-not-basic by "bragging" about leaving Facebook on Facebook.

 

So, I mean, as far as public opinion is concerned, you can be a ghost, or you can be an attention whore. Is it any wonder Jedi Master Luke chose the former?

 

Besides, Jedi Master-In-Exile is one of the biggest SW tropes (and Master-In-Exile is one of the biggest general tropes).

 

Anyway, speaking of Star Wars Chicks, anyone remember Emerald Angel? She's my mom. Clearly, I still stay in touch - saw TLJ with her, even. She hated it. I was meh about it.

 

She was a teenager when ANH came out, and she adored everything about it from her second viewing. When I asked why she hated TLJ, the first thing she said was that Rian Johnson burned the Jedi Library. As far as she was concerned, that scene was a big ol' middle finger to the original fans like herself, and was a signal that the Star Wars they've known and loved for 41 years was over, even as the franchise was just picking back up. After that it was the usual fan complaints - the new characters aren't interesting enough, Rey is just a Luke rehash, Leia Poppins, etc, etc.

 

I mean, she even liked the PT (granted, being able to share current Star Wars with her teen and pre-teen kids probably factored into that. We're all grown now, and she doesn't have any grandkids to get into Star Wars with).

 

My second-generation fan self has only seen TLJ once, so I'm not really in a great place to fully review it, but I thought it was too long and stretched too thin. For instance, I like Rose Tico as a character, but I wish that they had given her a better story line that served the overarching plot more. And I had a hard time keeping the thread of what was happening during the slo-mo space chase parts, but I'm not sure if that's because the dialogue wasn't effective at conveying exactly what was happening, or if it was and I just forgot about it because there was so much jumping around and so much to keep track of.

 

It is what it is, I guess.

 

So, the burning of the Library was an "FU" to the fans. That library didn't even exist until TLJ, Johnson invented it himself and then burned it down. It didn't exist until this movie. That is maybe the craziest thing I've heard yet. I'll move it to the top of the list.

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Sorry Icy. Humor doesn't always translate into the written word as clearly as we would like. Even after 20 years of posting online. So I misread. I also haven't been on Facebook for a couple of years, and have better relationships as a result, because I cut away the meaningless ones.

 

And Luke may have been intending mercy, but it was still a dick move. He abandoned his family at a moment of extreme trauma, and abandoned the galaxy to go be an emo kid.

 

The best part about Leia's character was that she was the only one of the Big 3 to not run away from everything. Han and Luke basically had the same arc, although Han was more willing to do the right thing.

 

My biggest complaint with TLJ is that it bored me, and I think that was a key part. RJ just copied JJ and made it more extreme. Ben turns evil, OT hero runs away and hides (Luke as a hermit, Han as a smuggler), meets Rey, ends up facing Ben and dies.

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Furthermore, if Luke was really running away to end the Jedi, he didn't bother to tell anyone? Not tell Leia or Han? "Hey, don't come looking for me." Just he's up and gone?

 

I left Facebook about a month ago and only told my nearest and dearest privately so they could keep me accountable (not something I'd expect Luke to burden Han and Leia with, especially since his reason for leaving was to atone for failing them and his nephew). I ghosted mostly because I remember how much everyone hated the "I'M LEAVING FOREVER!" ploy for attention threads that were allllllll over Star Wars Chicks back in the day, and I didn't want to give those optics.

 

But then my phone broke and I lost all my contacts. So, I went back to Facebook while my phone was being fixed, so I could recoup my contacts list and not go completely dark. And I told everyone why I had left while asking for help with my missing contacts. And took some flack for making ANY public announcement whatsoever, looking like I'm so high-and-mighty-and-not-basic by "bragging" about leaving Facebook on Facebook.

 

So, I mean, as far as public opinion is concerned, you can be a ghost, or you can be an attention whore. Is it any wonder Jedi Master Luke chose the former?

 

Besides, Jedi Master-In-Exile is one of the biggest SW tropes (and Master-In-Exile is one of the biggest general tropes).

 

Anyway, speaking of Star Wars Chicks, anyone remember Emerald Angel? She's my mom. Clearly, I still stay in touch - saw TLJ with her, even. She hated it. I was meh about it.

 

She was a teenager when ANH came out, and she adored everything about it from her second viewing. When I asked why she hated TLJ, the first thing she said was that Rian Johnson burned the Jedi Library. As far as she was concerned, that scene was a big ol' middle finger to the original fans like herself, and was a signal that the Star Wars they've known and loved for 41 years was over, even as the franchise was just picking back up. After that it was the usual fan complaints - the new characters aren't interesting enough, Rey is just a Luke rehash, Leia Poppins, etc, etc.

 

I mean, she even liked the PT (granted, being able to share current Star Wars with her teen and pre-teen kids probably factored into that. We're all grown now, and she doesn't have any grandkids to get into Star Wars with).

 

My second-generation fan self has only seen TLJ once, so I'm not really in a great place to fully review it, but I thought it was too long and stretched too thin. For instance, I like Rose Tico as a character, but I wish that they had given her a better story line that served the overarching plot more. And I had a hard time keeping the thread of what was happening during the slo-mo space chase parts, but I'm not sure if that's because the dialogue wasn't effective at conveying exactly what was happening, or if it was and I just forgot about it because there was so much jumping around and so much to keep track of.

 

It is what it is, I guess.

 

So, the burning of the Library was an "FU" to the fans. That library didn't even exist until TLJ, Johnson invented it himself and then burned it down. It didn't exist until this movie. That is maybe the craziest thing I've heard yet. I'll move it to the top of the list.

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Everything you're saying makes sense. I'm actually going to do it myself if my latest and last filmmaking project (a webseries) fails. This project failing would cap 14 years of nothing but abject failure in the business and that's enough for me. I'm leaving the business and the internet forever.

 

So I can relate to Luke. Too many straight years of personal and professional failure will break anybody, even Luke.

 

My issue with Luke ghosting though is he left the problem he'd created for other people to deal with. That's a dick move. You can't do that and I don't believe Luke would.

See saying Luke "wouldn't do that" is like saying "that soldier would't get PTSD". Luke didn't leave out of cowardice or apathy. He was completely broken apart at his core by what happened. Saying he wouldn't react this way is to just completely disregard the affect that something truly traumatic can have on even the strongest and bravest of us all. You are basically Patton slapping the shell shocked soldier.

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Hey Tank, I'll reply to your last responding post when I can, maybe Sat. Just been way busy. In short, I disagree with you on a lot in that post, and I don't think either of us will change our minds, but not a bad thing.

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Everything you're saying makes sense. I'm actually going to do it myself if my latest and last filmmaking project (a webseries) fails. This project failing would cap 14 years of nothing but abject failure in the business and that's enough for me. I'm leaving the business and the internet forever.

 

So I can relate to Luke. Too many straight years of personal and professional failure will break anybody, even Luke.

 

My issue with Luke ghosting though is he left the problem he'd created for other people to deal with. That's a dick move. You can't do that and I don't believe Luke would.

See saying Luke "wouldn't do that" is like saying "that soldier would't get PTSD". Luke didn't leave out of cowardice or apathy. He was completely broken apart at his core by what happened. Saying he wouldn't react this way is to just completely disregard the affect that something truly traumatic can have on even the strongest and bravest of us all. You are basically Patton slapping the shell shocked soldier.

But comparing PTSD with Lukes mentality of they can all go pound sound, Im not doing a damn thing to help and I couldnt care less if my inaction leaves a dark side tyrant in control of the galaxy, isnt comparable.

 

PTSD isnt a choice, but Lukes action of do nothing to help defeat a dark side tyrant hell bent on ruling the universe, is a choice. And I know plenty of veterans with PTSD who still choose to serve their country and the military, so Lukes traumatic experience isnt some immovable object that precludes him from doing what is right, which is to fight a dark side tyrant seeking to plunge the entire universe into darkness.

 

Luke is not a tabula rasa, like many movie characters, he has certain personality traits established for him in the OT. Based on those traits, the audience is given a clear understanding of the character of Luke. Hence, we can predict or judge, based on those traits and character, whether some action or conduct is consistent with Luke.

 

For instance, Anakins character was portrayed as an individual who had difficulty controlling his anger, would submit to hate, and therefore, would perpetuate some deeds entirely consistent with the dark side. He also hated losing loved ones, and the fear of losing a loved one consumed him so much, that he looked for any way to assuage his fear, including the dark side. Hence, we arent surprised by his fall, its consistent with who he was as a person in the PT.

 

Lukes personality traits reflect a person who deeply cared about the fate of the galaxy and like his father, deeply cared about people loved. Those traits guided his actions in the OT. Those traits led him to confront Vader, not to vanquish him, but to save him, at the risk of to die trying himself. He despised the tyranny of the empire.

 

So, while its understandable Luke might A) retreat Ahch-To, B.) his refusal to help defeat an evil tyrant drenched in the power of the dark side and seeking to cover the galaxies in a dark cloud of tyranny, isnt consistent with his character, with who he was in the OT.

 

Retreat away is plausible. His mentality of go F yourself, I'm not helping to defeat an evil tyrant and I do not care that my inaction may seal everyones fate to a lifetime, or longer, of servitude to the evil tyrant, is too dramatic a break from Luke in the OT.

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So, the burning of the Library was an "FU" to the fans. That library didn't even exist until TLJ, Johnson invented it himself and then burned it down. It didn't exist until this movie. That is maybe the craziest thing I've heard yet. I'll move it to the top of the list.

 

 

 

The concept of a Jedi Library and of Jedi scriptures definitely existed in many forms throughout both canon and the EU. Everyone knew there would be a Library at the first Jedi Temple, otherwise, what's the point in seeking out some old Porg-**** covered beehive huts useful for nothing but shelter? And it's not the burning of the books themselves, it's the symbolism of it. She took that scene, both the burning of the books and the conversation Luke and Yoda had as Disney telling everyone that this was now THEIR property, and they're going to do whatever tf they want with it, 40+ year fans be damned. And what my mom heard them saying is that her beloved Jedi have no place whatsoever in the new franchise.

 

I'm not saying I agree with her. But the OP asked for opinions on why there's such a disconnect, and I happen to have access to an original 1977 fan to mine data from. She feels disenfranchised by Disney. It's not just the MRA manbabies who don't like seeing non-sexualized women on their screen who feel this way.

 

 

PTSD isnt a choice, but Lukes action of do nothing to help defeat a dark side tyrant hell bent on ruling the universe, is a choice.

 

I would advise not judging what all people with a mental illness can do based on a handful of anecdotes about other people who have a similar condition. There are many people who's brain chemistry makes it impossible for them to get out of bed, care for themselves, hold down a job, etc. Their choice is between getting help and not getting help (if they even have access to help in the first place).

 

If Luke knew how to prevent Ben from turning in the first place, there would be no Kylo Ren. If Luke knew how to bring him back, he would have done so. And there would be literally no ST if any of this had happened. Instead, Luke decides to make himself scarce after his ****up, to keep from ****ing up even harder, most likely because that's all he can figure out to do at the time. Maybe he originally retreated to come up with a plan before taking action, and didn't come up with one. Maybe he recognized, whether he was correct in doing so or not, that staying out of it would be the best course for actually resolving the situation with minimal loss. Maybe he's so busy battling the demons in his head that he doesn't have the energy to fight the real world demons anymore.

 

And frankly, your argument that Luke has to stay the same for-ev-er is bad storytelling. Luke is, what, 16-20 years old in the OT? His brain wouldn't have even been fully developed yet during the timeline of the first three movies. He's 60 or so in TLJ. There are lots of factors - especially in 40 years time - that could turn a "tireless fighter" into a hermit (I'm actually dealing with a few in my current life situation right now). Not to mention the fact that this is a series that's entire premise is that we all make a perpetual choice between good and evil every day. Just because we saw Luke choose good in the OT, that doesn't mean he won't choose evil (or apathy) down the line - Vader chose good at the last possible minute and even became a rare Force Ghost, why can't it go the other way? Considering all of that, it's pure "don't mess with my childhood" fandom to expect Luke to be just how we left him on Endor in 1983.

 

In conclusion, Luke was the least of my problems with TLJ.

 

 

I'm leaving the business and the internet forever.

 

 

Wait. I get the business, but why the internet? You've always used your brand as your screen persona, but your social internet use has always been like 70% personal, 30% business. Why not re-brand as purely personal instead of leaving fully?

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So, the burning of the Library was an "FU" to the fans. That library didn't even exist until TLJ, Johnson invented it himself and then burned it down. It didn't exist until this movie. That is maybe the craziest thing I've heard yet. I'll move it to the top of the list.

 

 

 

 

PTSD isnt a choice, but Lukes action of do nothing to help defeat a dark side tyrant hell bent on ruling the universe, is a choice.

 

I would advise not judging what all people with a mental illness can do based on a handful of anecdotes about other people who have a similar condition. There are many people who's brain chemistry makes it impossible for them to get out of bed, care for themselves, hold down a job, etc. Their choice is between getting help and not getting help (if they even have access to help in the first place).

 

If Luke knew how to prevent Ben from turning in the first place, there would be no Kylo Ren. If Luke knew how to bring him back, he would have done so. And there would be literally no ST if any of this had happened. Instead, Luke decides to make himself scarce after his ****up, to keep from ****ing up even harder, most likely because that's all he can figure out to do at the time. Maybe he originally retreated to come up with a plan before taking action, and didn't come up with one. Maybe he recognized, whether he was correct in doing so or not, that staying out of it would be the best course for actually resolving the situation with minimal loss. Maybe he's so busy battling the demons in his head that he doesn't have the energy to fight the real world demons anymore.

 

And frankly, your argument that Luke has to stay the same for-ev-er is bad storytelling. Luke is, what, 16-20 years old in the OT? His brain wouldn't have even been fully developed yet during the timeline of the first three movies. He's 60 or so in TLJ. There are lots of factors - especially in 40 years time - that could turn a "tireless fighter" into a hermit (I'm actually dealing with a few in my current life situation right now). Not to mention the fact that this is a series that's entire premise is that we all make a perpetual choice between good and evil every day. Just because we saw Luke choose good in the OT, that doesn't mean he won't choose evil (or apathy) down the line - Vader chose good at the last possible minute and even became a rare Force Ghost, why can't it go the other way? Considering all of that, it's pure "don't mess with my childhood" fandom to expect Luke to be just how we left him on Endor in 1983.

 

In conclusion, Luke was the least of my problems with TLJ.

 

Well, my remark wasnt about all people with a mental illness, and my reply was showing PTSD isnt comparable to Luke in TLJ. I have some experience with PTSD, I sit on a treatment court in which we see a lot of PTSD and treat PTSD. So, this isnt entirely anecdotal.

 

But all of that is besides the point. My point is the notion Luke wouldnt abandon his friends to their fate in TLJ, because soldiers get PTSD, isnt a compelling argument, for those reasons I previously stated.

 

And frankly, your argument that Luke has to stay the same for-ev-er is bad storytelling.

Thats not my perspective, but instead my point of view was a feature of Lukes character, a character trait, guided his direction in the OT. Luke in TLJ is completely contrary to that Luke in the OT, which is a very drastic departure, a complete 180. The criticism is understandable based on the character of Luke in OT.

 

And it isnt bad story telling for a character to adhere to the personality traits of the character, and some very successful movie franchises, successful both financially and critically, were built upon that consistency. Simply, Luke in TLJ remaining true to his personality, his character traits, in the OT would not have constituted as bad story telling.

 

Lukes F yourself mentality in TLJ, more befitting Wolverine, and apathy towards the prospect of the palpable, perhaps inexorable, universe plunging into darkness, an outcome he facilitated, isnt consistent with Lukes character, his personality in the OT, and it is not bad storytelling to have a script where Luke acts in a manner consistent with that personality and character.

 

 

So, the burning of the Library was an "FU" to the fans. That library didn't even exist until TLJ, Johnson invented it himself and then burned it down. It didn't exist until this movie. That is maybe the craziest thing I've heard yet. I'll move it to the top of the list.

 

 

 

 

PTSD isnt a choice, but Lukes action of do nothing to help defeat a dark side tyrant hell bent on ruling the universe, is a choice.

 

I would advise not judging what all people with a mental illness can do based on a handful of anecdotes about other people who have a similar condition. There are many people who's brain chemistry makes it impossible for them to get out of bed, care for themselves, hold down a job, etc. Their choice is between getting help and not getting help (if they even have access to help in the first place).

 

If Luke knew how to prevent Ben from turning in the first place, there would be no Kylo Ren. If Luke knew how to bring him back, he would have done so. And there would be literally no ST if any of this had happened. Instead, Luke decides to make himself scarce after his ****up, to keep from ****ing up even harder, most likely because that's all he can figure out to do at the time. Maybe he originally retreated to come up with a plan before taking action, and didn't come up with one. Maybe he recognized, whether he was correct in doing so or not, that staying out of it would be the best course for actually resolving the situation with minimal loss. Maybe he's so busy battling the demons in his head that he doesn't have the energy to fight the real world demons anymore.

 

And frankly, your argument that Luke has to stay the same for-ev-er is bad storytelling. Luke is, what, 16-20 years old in the OT? His brain wouldn't have even been fully developed yet during the timeline of the first three movies. He's 60 or so in TLJ. There are lots of factors - especially in 40 years time - that could turn a "tireless fighter" into a hermit (I'm actually dealing with a few in my current life situation right now). Not to mention the fact that this is a series that's entire premise is that we all make a perpetual choice between good and evil every day. Just because we saw Luke choose good in the OT, that doesn't mean he won't choose evil (or apathy) down the line - Vader chose good at the last possible minute and even became a rare Force Ghost, why can't it go the other way? Considering all of that, it's pure "don't mess with my childhood" fandom to expect Luke to be just how we left him on Endor in 1983.

 

In conclusion, Luke was the least of my problems with TLJ.

 

Well, my remark wasnt about all people with a mental illness, and my reply was showing PTSD isnt comparable to Luke in TLJ. I have some experience with PTSD, I sit on a treatment court in which we see a lot of PTSD and treat PTSD. So, this isnt entirely anecdotal.

 

But all of that is besides the point. My point is the notion Luke wouldnt abandon his friends to their fate in TLJ, because soldiers get PTSD, isnt a compelling argument, for those reasons I previously stated.

 

And frankly, your argument that Luke has to stay the same for-ev-er is bad storytelling.

Thats not my perspective, but instead my point of view was a feature of Lukes character, a character trait, guided his direction in the OT. Luke in TLJ is completely contrary to that Luke in the OT, which is a very drastic departure, a complete 180. The criticism is understandable based on the character of Luke in OT.

 

And it isnt bad story telling for a character to adhere to the personality traits of the character, and some very successful movie franchises, successful both financially and critically, were built upon that consistency. Simply, Luke in TLJ remaining true to his personality, his character traits, in the OT would not have constituted as bad story telling.

 

Lukes F yourself mentality in TLJ, more befitting Wolverine, and apathy towards the prospect of the palpable, perhaps inexorable, universe plunging into darkness, an outcome he facilitated, isnt consistent with Lukes character, his personality in the OT, and it is not bad storytelling to have a script where Luke acts in a manner consistent with that personality and character.

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We're just going to have to agree to disagree about Luke's personality. Johnson could have taken the character in any of a million directions. He chose the one he did. I can see why he would make a choice like that, for stated reasons. I can see why die-hards could be pissed, for the reasons you stated. But, ultimately, Luke Skywalker is not our character. He's not even George Lucas's character anymore, he belongs to Disney now. We don't get much of a say in any of this, other than not buying movie tickets. Regardless of who or what Luke Skywalker was whether blatantly on screen or what we read into the character in the past, he's also officially, in canon, the character we saw in TLJ.

 

How's this for an even more unpopular opinion - the more I see of Disney Star Wars, the more I wish they hadn't bought the franchise, and let Star Wars just be this wonderful, nostalgic thing we all have great memories of and like to revisit sometimes.

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I think that's becoming less and less of an upopular opinion.

 

Episode 9 needs to really impress me or new Star Wars will cease to mean anything to me. I already care way more about Marvel, and I only see the Captain America and Avengers movies in the theater, and I think it's been that way since Avengers 1, with the exception of GotG 1. And Star Wars means less to me than that, and I saw AotC multiple times in the theater.

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That makes your comments in the GotG2 thread make SO much more sense to me.

 

I think you may even be a little more loyal to Star Wars than I am. I already passed on Solo. And I've heard your sentiments echoed in many, many corners of the internet by perfectly sane non-fanbros. I definitely agree that IX needs to bring it extremely hard, if Disney doesn't want to be seen as the studio that was handed Star Wars topped with a pretty bow and everything and proceeded to kill it beyond dead.

 

Man, Disney doing this after what they've done with Marvel is, like, even worse than being just the Mouse House and doing Star Wars like this.

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Also, I wasn't trying to compare it exactly to PTSD. Comparing it more to this:

"i

My sister died of a drug overdose at 27. Since then my mom has tried to kill herself twice, which is the ultimate abandonment of your loved ones. She just can't get better. It's been 11 years. Maybe that's why what happened to Luke resonates with me, especially considering my theory that Luke was about to jump off the cliff and kill himself when Rey showed up.

 

Since TFA I've seen drug addiction in Kylo's turn to the dark side. NOt that I think it's intentionally in there but I still see it. From Han and Leia's convo "we did everything we could" to how Kylo's fall just destroys all his loved ones lives, to Luke blaming himself. I see alot of parallels in how some of the characters responded. Leia is the parent whose kid died and the parent then says "Im going to do something about this" and volunteers to help at treatment centers or give speeches to kids. This is what you want to happen. Han is sort of the one who just tries to get on with his life the best he can in his own way. Luke is the worst, the one who just can't deal with the tragedy.

 

I'm not saying these are 100% perfect comparisons but I do completely see these things in these movies.

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For me the problem is not what became of Luke, but that there was just a fast cut from a happy ever after in ROTJ to TLJs I have to learn to believe again. We didn't suffer enough with Luke. We didn't see Kylos turn, the First Order isn't that devastating, or maybe I need to watch TFA again.

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I watched TLJ for the second time today. Some good, maybe some great, very cool looking things, but the bad is worse than I remember.

 

I havent thought about this much, but it popped in there as I was trying to figure out why both myself and even my kids are having a hard time digging our new heroes and villains. I think there are too many characters and they are too similar. But this is a problem from TFA, that just seems to have been exasperated by this mostly wheel spinning sequel.

 

Side Note: Im like really going out on a limb here, not certain if this is too far, Ive been thinking long and hard and I think it should be said... the people that rage against the movie are ***holes.

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We're just going to have to agree to disagree about Luke's personality. Johnson could have taken the character in any of a million directions. He chose the one he did. I can see why he would make a choice like that, for stated reasons. I can see why die-hards could be pissed, for the reasons you stated. But, ultimately, Luke Skywalker is not our character. He's not even George Lucas's character anymore, he belongs to Disney now. We don't get much of a say in any of this, other than not buying movie tickets. Regardless of who or what Luke Skywalker.

I agree but I also think this is where the criticism of Rian Johnsons treatment of Like is legitimate. Luke wasnt a tabula rasa. He was invented by Lucas over 40 years ago. His attributes set over 35-40 years ago. His establishment as an iconic hero in the movies, video games, comics, books, all trashed by Johnson, leading some to rightfully ask who the hell does Johnson think he is? He was entrusted with a character already created, a personality and history already set, but not to rewrite him.

 

I also think Johnson knew the Luke he wrote was the antithesis of Luke in the OT, anticipated fans would be upset, and gave them a middle finger salute, as he wrote the line of,Did you think I was going to walk out with a laser sword and face down the whole First Order.

 

Like you, I understand why Rian Johnson minimized Luke. The Skywalker family has dominated the SW universe for over 41 years. The script accomplished a transition from a Skywalker dominated movie and trilogy, to pivot away from the Skywalker story, to get away from the been there and done that already, of Jedi versus Sith, with Skywalkers in the mix.

 

But for me, as much as I find the script to be a stroke of genius for breaking away from the past, of fulfilling the need to write a new story not dominated by old heroes, but new ones, of pivoting away from the Skywalker story, I also have deep disappointment.

 

Its the first SW movie I found to be wonderfully written and also disappointing. In the past, the more I watched the film, the more the film ameliorated my disappointment (Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones), but after numerous viewings, I still feel resounding disappointment.

 

Perhaps you are right, Star Wars was better left untouched after the prequel trilogies.

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For me the problem is not what became of Luke, but that there was just a fast cut from a happy ever after in ROTJ to TLJs I have to learn to believe again. We didn't suffer enough with Luke. We didn't see Kylos turn, the First Order isn't that devastating, or maybe I need to watch TFA again.

Very good point. There isnt enough movie material in between to connect the audiences between the Luke of ROTJ and TLJ. Its Luke in ROTJ and then Luke in TLJ.

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A fast cut? Given that Luke has aged real time the people most upset about his change should be the ones old enough to have perspective to understand it.

 

Fandom and arrested development often go hand in hand though.

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We're just going to have to agree to disagree about Luke's personality. Johnson could have taken the character in any of a million directions. He chose the one he did. I can see why he would make a choice like that, for stated reasons. I can see why die-hards could be pissed, for the reasons you stated. But, ultimately, Luke Skywalker is not our character. He's not even George Lucas's character anymore, he belongs to Disney now. We don't get much of a say in any of this, other than not buying movie tickets. Regardless of who or what Luke Skywalker.

I agree but I also think this is where the criticism of Rian Johnsons treatment of Like is legitimate. Luke wasnt a tabula rasa. He was invented by Lucas over 40 years ago. His attributes set over 35-40 years ago. His establishment as an iconic hero in the movies, video games, comics, books, all trashed by Johnson, leading some to rightfully ask who the hell does Johnson think he is? He was entrusted with a character already created, a personality and history already set, but not to rewrite him.

 

I also think Johnson knew the Luke he wrote was the antithesis of Luke in the OT, anticipated fans would be upset, and gave them a middle finger salute, as he wrote the line of,Did you think I was going to walk out with a laser sword and face down the whole First Order.

 

Like you, I understand why Rian Johnson minimized Luke. The Skywalker family has dominated the SW universe for over 41 years. The script accomplished a transition from a Skywalker dominated movie and trilogy, to pivot away from the Skywalker story, to get away from the been there and done that already, of Jedi versus Sith, with Skywalkers in the mix.

 

But for me, as much as I find the script to be a stroke of genius for breaking away from the past, of fulfilling the need to write a new story not dominated by old heroes, but new ones, of pivoting away from the Skywalker story, I also have deep disappointment.

 

Its the first SW movie I found to be wonderfully written and also disappointing. In the past, the more I watched the film, the more the film ameliorated my disappointment (Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones), but after numerous viewings, I still feel resounding disappointment.

 

Perhaps you are right, Star Wars was better left untouched after the prequel trilogies.

 

Yeah, Johnson wrote that line as a total FU to the fans and not as foreshadowing for later in the movie when Luke, ya know, actually does face down the whole first order with his lazer sword.

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We're just going to have to agree to disagree about Luke's personality. Johnson could have taken the character in any of a million directions. He chose the one he did. I can see why he would make a choice like that, for stated reasons. I can see why die-hards could be pissed, for the reasons you stated. But, ultimately, Luke Skywalker is not our character. He's not even George Lucas's character anymore, he belongs to Disney now. We don't get much of a say in any of this, other than not buying movie tickets. Regardless of who or what Luke Skywalker.

I agree but I also think this is where the criticism of Rian Johnsons treatment of Like is legitimate. Luke wasnt a tabula rasa. He was invented by Lucas over 40 years ago. His attributes set over 35-40 years ago. His establishment as an iconic hero in the movies, video games, comics, books, all trashed by Johnson, leading some to rightfully ask who the hell does Johnson think he is? He was entrusted with a character already created, a personality and history already set, but not to rewrite him.

 

I also think Johnson knew the Luke he wrote was the antithesis of Luke in the OT, anticipated fans would be upset, and gave them a middle finger salute, as he wrote the line of,Did you think I was going to walk out with a laser sword and face down the whole First Order.

 

Like you, I understand why Rian Johnson minimized Luke. The Skywalker family has dominated the SW universe for over 41 years. The script accomplished a transition from a Skywalker dominated movie and trilogy, to pivot away from the Skywalker story, to get away from the been there and done that already, of Jedi versus Sith, with Skywalkers in the mix.

 

But for me, as much as I find the script to be a stroke of genius for breaking away from the past, of fulfilling the need to write a new story not dominated by old heroes, but new ones, of pivoting away from the Skywalker story, I also have deep disappointment.

 

Its the first SW movie I found to be wonderfully written and also disappointing. In the past, the more I watched the film, the more the film ameliorated my disappointment (Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones), but after numerous viewings, I still feel resounding disappointment.

 

Perhaps you are right, Star Wars was better left untouched after the prequel trilogies.

 

Yeah, Johnson wrote that line as a total FU to the fans and not as foreshadowing for later in the movie when Luke, ya know, actually does face down the whole first order with his lazer sword.

 

Right. Of course. Foreshadowing for a holographic encounter, which necessarily means he did not really "face down the whole first order with his lazer sword." The fact Johnson utilized Luke as a hologram was to emphasize the prior point made, Luke was not leaving the island to confront the First Order on a swashbuckling crusade.

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A fast cut? Given that Luke has aged real time the people most upset about his change should be the ones old enough to have perspective to understand it.

 

Fandom and arrested development often go hand in hand though.

The people who have the must perspective also tend to have the most desire for something to remain good and pure.

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A fast cut? Given that Luke has aged real time the people most upset about his change should be the ones old enough to have perspective to understand it.

 

Fandom and arrested development often go hand in hand though.

The point was not there was a "fast cut."

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We're just going to have to agree to disagree about Luke's personality. Johnson could have taken the character in any of a million directions. He chose the one he did. I can see why he would make a choice like that, for stated reasons. I can see why die-hards could be pissed, for the reasons you stated. But, ultimately, Luke Skywalker is not our character. He's not even George Lucas's character anymore, he belongs to Disney now. We don't get much of a say in any of this, other than not buying movie tickets. Regardless of who or what Luke Skywalker.

I agree but I also think this is where the criticism of Rian Johnsons treatment of Like is legitimate. Luke wasnt a tabula rasa. He was invented by Lucas over 40 years ago. His attributes set over 35-40 years ago. His establishment as an iconic hero in the movies, video games, comics, books, all trashed by Johnson, leading some to rightfully ask who the hell does Johnson think he is? He was entrusted with a character already created, a personality and history already set, but not to rewrite him.

 

I also think Johnson knew the Luke he wrote was the antithesis of Luke in the OT, anticipated fans would be upset, and gave them a middle finger salute, as he wrote the line of,Did you think I was going to walk out with a laser sword and face down the whole First Order.

 

Like you, I understand why Rian Johnson minimized Luke. The Skywalker family has dominated the SW universe for over 41 years. The script accomplished a transition from a Skywalker dominated movie and trilogy, to pivot away from the Skywalker story, to get away from the been there and done that already, of Jedi versus Sith, with Skywalkers in the mix.

 

But for me, as much as I find the script to be a stroke of genius for breaking away from the past, of fulfilling the need to write a new story not dominated by old heroes, but new ones, of pivoting away from the Skywalker story, I also have deep disappointment.

 

Its the first SW movie I found to be wonderfully written and also disappointing. In the past, the more I watched the film, the more the film ameliorated my disappointment (Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones), but after numerous viewings, I still feel resounding disappointment.

 

Perhaps you are right, Star Wars was better left untouched after the prequel trilogies.

 

Yeah, Johnson wrote that line as a total FU to the fans and not as foreshadowing for later in the movie when Luke, ya know, actually does face down the whole first order with his lazer sword.

 

Right. Of course. Foreshadowing for a holographic encounter, which necessarily means he did not really "face down the whole first order with his lazer sword." The fact Johnson utilized Luke as a hologram was to emphasize the prior point made, Luke was not leaving the island to confront the First Order on a swashbuckling crusade.

 

It doesn't matter if it was a "hologram". "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." Luke was there, maybe not the casing of his crude matter but he was there, and he did face down the entire First Order. He figured out a way to do it.

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