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Why the difference in opinion between critics and fans on TLJ


The Choc
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I'm surprised that this is the big issue with the movie. I thought that Luke was the least terrible part of the movie. Or do people just admit that the whole ST: TNG plotline about the ship being chased was awful?

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We're just going to have to agree to disagree about Luke's personality. Johnson could have taken the character in any of a million directions. He chose the one he did. I can see why he would make a choice like that, for stated reasons. I can see why die-hards could be pissed, for the reasons you stated. But, ultimately, Luke Skywalker is not our character. He's not even George Lucas's character anymore, he belongs to Disney now. We don't get much of a say in any of this, other than not buying movie tickets. Regardless of who or what Luke Skywalker.

I agree but I also think this is where the criticism of Rian Johnsons treatment of Like is legitimate. Luke wasnt a tabula rasa. He was invented by Lucas over 40 years ago. His attributes set over 35-40 years ago. His establishment as an iconic hero in the movies, video games, comics, books, all trashed by Johnson, leading some to rightfully ask who the hell does Johnson think he is? He was entrusted with a character already created, a personality and history already set, but not to rewrite him.

 

I also think Johnson knew the Luke he wrote was the antithesis of Luke in the OT, anticipated fans would be upset, and gave them a middle finger salute, as he wrote the line of,Did you think I was going to walk out with a laser sword and face down the whole First Order.

 

Like you, I understand why Rian Johnson minimized Luke. The Skywalker family has dominated the SW universe for over 41 years. The script accomplished a transition from a Skywalker dominated movie and trilogy, to pivot away from the Skywalker story, to get away from the been there and done that already, of Jedi versus Sith, with Skywalkers in the mix.

 

But for me, as much as I find the script to be a stroke of genius for breaking away from the past, of fulfilling the need to write a new story not dominated by old heroes, but new ones, of pivoting away from the Skywalker story, I also have deep disappointment.

 

Its the first SW movie I found to be wonderfully written and also disappointing. In the past, the more I watched the film, the more the film ameliorated my disappointment (Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones), but after numerous viewings, I still feel resounding disappointment.

 

Perhaps you are right, Star Wars was better left untouched after the prequel trilogies.

 

Yeah, Johnson wrote that line as a total FU to the fans and not as foreshadowing for later in the movie when Luke, ya know, actually does face down the whole first order with his lazer sword.

 

Right. Of course. Foreshadowing for a holographic encounter, which necessarily means he did not really "face down the whole first order with his lazer sword." The fact Johnson utilized Luke as a hologram was to emphasize the prior point made, Luke was not leaving the island to confront the First Order on a swashbuckling crusade.

 

It doesn't matter if it was a "hologram". "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." Luke was there, maybe not the casing of his crude matter but he was there, and he did face down the entire First Order. He figured out a way to do it.

 

So, Yoda was referencing holograms 38 years ago in ESB when he said, "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter"? Possibly Yoda was referencing holograms but there is no evidence Yoda was referring to holograms. Given the fact Kenobi survived beyond the grave in ANH and ESB, it is much more plausible Yoda was referring to the fact Luke, Yoda, Kenobi, have an existence which is not entirely physical but exists in a spirit form as well.

 

Back to the point, Rian Johnson was not foreshadowing Luke as a hologram. Context is important. Rey is sent to the island to, in part, explain the desperate situation to Luke in an effort to induce Luke to leave the island and assist the Resistance. The hope is Luke will leave the island and return to assist the Resistance. Rey was not asking for a hologram of Luke but instead for Luke to physically leave and involve himself. When Rey says they need Luke Skywalker back, she again is not asking for Luke to return as a hologram. She is asking for Luke to physically involve himself in the fight against the First Order. Luke's reply to her occurs within this context.

 

Luke scoffs at her naivety and responds with sarcasm. He first tells her they do not need Luke Skywalker and mocks the notion he is going to leave the island, flip the switch on a light saber, confront and defeat the First Order. Luke, in responding to Rey's plea for him to leave the island and assist the Resistance against the First Order, says:

 

"You don't need Luke Skywalker. What did you think was going to happen here? Did you think I was going to walk out with a laser sword and face down the whole First Order?"

 

Given the context, that line is not foreshadowing a hologram of Luke. Rather, it is Luke sending a clear message to Rey that this notion he is going to leave the island and single handedly save the universe from the First Order, is nuts. He rejects her idea of him leaving to confront the First Order. And indeed, he doesn't, but instead his hologram was to stall and delay, giving the Resistance time to escape, as indicated by Poe and General Hux.

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I'm surprised that this is the big issue with the movie. I thought that Luke was the least terrible part of the movie. Or do people just admit that the whole ST: TNG plotline about the ship being chased was awful?

It does not surprise me. Generations of people grew up with a different depiction of Luke, the Luke in the OT. For over 35 years, between 35 to 41 to be exact, the primary source of who Luke is, what he is like, what he is about, was the OT. Then comics and books which involved Luke were also developed, and the Luke from the OT was perpetuated in those comics and books. So, multiple generations grew up with only one, singular, concept and idea of who Luke was and is, and then they get something different in TLJ. So, I do understand the displeasure.

 

But like I said elsewhere, it was good storytelling. Even if people disagree with the story, I am one who is not completely happy with it, but I can acknowledge it was good storytelling.

 

I agree the space chase was too long. The movie dragged in the middle with the too long space chase as the bridge between the opening of the movie and the ending.

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Rarely, if ever, have I seen someone misunderstand something this badly. Yes ofcourse Luke is commenting on Reys naivety. That is obvious. But, amazingly, a line of dialogue can serve more than one purpose and have more than one meaning. The idea of any person, even Luke Skywalker, facing down a whole army is ridiculous until Luke actually finds a way to do it.

 

Calling it a hologram is just not an accurate thing to call it. A hologram is that thing they played of Tupac at his concert. Thats not him. On Crait that is Luke. It's his essence, his consciousness, his being, his soul. Whatever term you want to use. He is there. To not get this is just mind boggling.

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A fast cut? Given that Luke has aged real time the people most upset about his change should be the ones old enough to have perspective to understand it.

 

Fandom and arrested development often go hand in hand though.

The point was not there was a "fast cut."

Ramon said the problem was Luke going from one movie to the next with a major change. You agreed.

 

I'm saying even if you don't read the EU, ACTUAL time has passed. The only people seeing the fast cut are those watching chronologically for the first time.

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Johnson uses dialogue that seems to have an obvious meaning at the time but actually serves are larger, foreshadowing purpose throughout the movie. The line about Luke facing down the First Order is probably the most obvious but there are other examples.

 

When Rey and Kylo have their first force connection Kylo asks Rey if she can see his surroundings and that he can't see hers. He is trying to figure out what is going on and he thinks that Rey is doing what Luke does later in the movie, sending a projection to him. He quickly realizes this isn't the case and says "this can't be you, the effort would kill you." Which at first blush makes us think "oh he is just saying Rey isn't that powerful." End of story, end of the lines meaning? Nope. It's foreshadowing the end of the movie when Luke actually does send a projection of himself across the Galaxy and the effort from it does in fact kill him.

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Yeah, Episode IX needs to bring it hard to save the sequel trilogy from the critically acclaimed box office smashes that came before it.

 

Yeah, we average joe fans all payed our $10 to see TLJ... and were largely disappointed by it. So largely disappointed that Solo tanked, production on other Star Wars Stories movies are on hold, and Disney's rumored to be talking about getting rid of Kathleen Kennedy.

 

Also, I wasn't trying to compare it exactly to PTSD. Comparing it more to this:

"i

My sister died of a drug overdose at 27. Since then my mom has tried to kill herself twice, which is the ultimate abandonment of your loved ones. She just can't get better. It's been 11 years. Maybe that's why what happened to Luke resonates with me, especially considering my theory that Luke was about to jump off the cliff and kill himself when Rey showed up.

 

Since TFA I've seen drug addiction in Kylo's turn to the dark side. NOt that I think it's intentionally in there but I still see it. From Han and Leia's convo "we did everything we could" to how Kylo's fall just destroys all his loved ones lives, to Luke blaming himself. I see alot of parallels in how some of the characters responded. Leia is the parent whose kid died and the parent then says "Im going to do something about this" and volunteers to help at treatment centers or give speeches to kids. This is what you want to happen. Han is sort of the one who just tries to get on with his life the best he can in his own way. Luke is the worst, the one who just can't deal with the tragedy.

 

I'm not saying these are 100% perfect comparisons but I do completely see these things in these movies.

 

I'm really sorry about your sister and your mom.

 

So far, it seems that the people in this thread who are okay with the creative decisions they made with Luke are good people who have Seen Some Shit and can empathize if not relate.

 

Personally, in our current political climate, I appreciate turning one of the most iconic heroes into a broken hermit. I got into the Social Justice scene hard during the election and Standing Rock. The Standing Rock crowd understands stress, trauma, burnout, and preventative self-care, but the other causes in the social justice sphere Do Not. The stress of trying to be a "tireless activist" gave me a really bad medical episode that I'm still recovering from 7 months later, and made me scared to jump back in in any capacity. I feel like this was saying, "dude, if Luke Motherfucking Skywalker can burn out so bad he becomes a crazy hermit, you can, too, so take care of yourself early and often."

 

For me the problem is not what became of Luke, but that there was just a fast cut from a happy ever after in ROTJ to TLJs I have to learn to believe again. We didn't suffer enough with Luke. We didn't see Kylos turn, the First Order isn't that devastating, or maybe I need to watch TFA again.

 

And who's fault is that? Lucas waited 20 years to make... a prequel trilogy. And then waited another nearly 20 years to sell the property to Disney. Disney had some choices - skip 40 years of the story to bring in the original actors, recast some of the most iconic characters in all of pop culture history, or completely ignore all of the previous movies about the Skywalker family and make Star Wars with zero Skywalkers. They're clearly trying to do all three (sometimes all at once). I don't know if all three is necessarily the right path, given how it's going, but a sequel trilogy set immediately after ROTJ and with the original actors was not going to work.

 

Side Note: Im like really going out on a limb here, not certain if this is too far, Ive been thinking long and hard and I think it should be said... the people that rage against the movie are ***holes.

 

Well, yeah.

 

 

I agree but I also think this is where the criticism of Rian Johnsons treatment of Like is legitimate. Luke wasnt a tabula rasa. He was invented by Lucas over 40 years ago. His attributes set over 35-40 years ago. His establishment as an iconic hero in the movies, video games, comics, books, all trashed by Johnson, leading some to rightfully ask who the hell does Johnson think he is? He was entrusted with a character already created, a personality and history already set, but not to rewrite him.

 

I also think Johnson knew the Luke he wrote was the antithesis of Luke in the OT, anticipated fans would be upset, and gave them a middle finger salute, as he wrote the line of,Did you think I was going to walk out with a laser sword and face down the whole First Order.

 

HEY CHOC, if you're going to put my mom's reasoning for hating TLJ at the top of your shit list, you might as well put this right beside it. They may have pin-pointed different scenes as examples, but they are both saying the same thing - they feel Johnson's treatment of the established canon was disrespectful both to the story itself and to the fans who have spent the better part of a human lifetime devoted to it.

 

Here's my thing about blaming Johnson for it all, though - he may have written it, but he had to get the script approved. If Disney didn't want broken old hermit Luke, they could have told Johnson to fuck off with the idea and bring them something else. But Disney wanted broken old hermit Luke. I would love to hear the reasoning behind that.

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Holograms are tech

 

Force ghosts and force projectionscare not.

 

Just being that guy.

You aren't being that guy, you are saying the truth. The idea that Luke wasn't on Crait is silly. In any meaningful way he was there, not on Ach-To.

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Yeah, Episode IX needs to bring it hard to save the sequel trilogy from the critically acclaimed box office smashes that came before it.

 

Yeah, we average joe fans all payed our $10 to see TLJ... and were largely disappointed by it. So largely disappointed that Solo tanked, production on other Star Wars Stories movies are on hold, and Disney's rumored to be talking about getting rid of Kathleen Kennedy.

 

Also, I wasn't trying to compare it exactly to PTSD. Comparing it more to this:

"i

My sister died of a drug overdose at 27. Since then my mom has tried to kill herself twice, which is the ultimate abandonment of your loved ones. She just can't get better. It's been 11 years. Maybe that's why what happened to Luke resonates with me, especially considering my theory that Luke was about to jump off the cliff and kill himself when Rey showed up.

 

Since TFA I've seen drug addiction in Kylo's turn to the dark side. NOt that I think it's intentionally in there but I still see it. From Han and Leia's convo "we did everything we could" to how Kylo's fall just destroys all his loved ones lives, to Luke blaming himself. I see alot of parallels in how some of the characters responded. Leia is the parent whose kid died and the parent then says "Im going to do something about this" and volunteers to help at treatment centers or give speeches to kids. This is what you want to happen. Han is sort of the one who just tries to get on with his life the best he can in his own way. Luke is the worst, the one who just can't deal with the tragedy.

 

I'm not saying these are 100% perfect comparisons but I do completely see these things in these movies.

 

I'm really sorry about your sister and your mom.

 

So far, it seems that the people in this thread who are okay with the creative decisions they made with Luke are good people who have Seen Some **** and can empathize if not relate.

 

Personally, in our current political climate, I appreciate turning one of the most iconic heroes into a broken hermit. I got into the Social Justice scene hard during the election and Standing Rock. The Standing Rock crowd understands stress, trauma, burnout, and preventative self-care, but the other causes in the social justice sphere Do Not. The stress of trying to be a "tireless activist" gave me a really bad medical episode that I'm still recovering from 7 months later, and made me scared to jump back in in any capacity. I feel like this was saying, "dude, if Luke Mother****ing Skywalker can burn out so bad he becomes a crazy hermit, you can, too, so take care of yourself early and often."

 

For me the problem is not what became of Luke, but that there was just a fast cut from a happy ever after in ROTJ to TLJs I have to learn to believe again. We didn't suffer enough with Luke. We didn't see Kylos turn, the First Order isn't that devastating, or maybe I need to watch TFA again.

 

And who's fault is that? Lucas waited 20 years to make... a prequel trilogy. And then waited another nearly 20 years to sell the property to Disney. Disney had some choices - skip 40 years of the story to bring in the original actors, recast some of the most iconic characters in all of pop culture history, or completely ignore all of the previous movies about the Skywalker family and make Star Wars with zero Skywalkers. They're clearly trying to do all three (sometimes all at once). I don't know if all three is necessarily the right path, given how it's going, but a sequel trilogy set immediately after ROTJ and with the original actors was not going to work.

 

Side Note: Im like really going out on a limb here, not certain if this is too far, Ive been thinking long and hard and I think it should be said... the people that rage against the movie are ***holes.

 

Well, yeah.

 

 

I agree but I also think this is where the criticism of Rian Johnsons treatment of Like is legitimate. Luke wasnt a tabula rasa. He was invented by Lucas over 40 years ago. His attributes set over 35-40 years ago. His establishment as an iconic hero in the movies, video games, comics, books, all trashed by Johnson, leading some to rightfully ask who the hell does Johnson think he is? He was entrusted with a character already created, a personality and history already set, but not to rewrite him.

 

I also think Johnson knew the Luke he wrote was the antithesis of Luke in the OT, anticipated fans would be upset, and gave them a middle finger salute, as he wrote the line of,Did you think I was going to walk out with a laser sword and face down the whole First Order.

 

HEY CHOC, if you're going to put my mom's reasoning for hating TLJ at the top of your **** list, you might as well put this right beside it. They may have pin-pointed different scenes as examples, but they are both saying the same thing - they feel Johnson's treatment of the established canon was disrespectful both to the story itself and to the fans who have spent the better part of a human lifetime devoted to it.

 

Here's my thing about blaming Johnson for it all, though - he may have written it, but he had to get the script approved. If Disney didn't want broken old hermit Luke, they could have told Johnson to **** off with the idea and bring them something else. But Disney wanted broken old hermit Luke. I would love to hear the reasoning behind that.

 

I already dealt with how silly I think his criticism of that line is. Made several posts about it, in fact.

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Rarely, if ever, have I seen someone misunderstand something this badly. Yes ofcourse Luke is commenting on Reys naivety. That is obvious. But, amazingly, a line of dialogue can serve more than one purpose and have more than one meaning. The idea of any person, even Luke Skywalker, facing down a whole army is ridiculous until Luke actually finds a way to do it.

 

Calling it a hologram is just not an accurate thing to call it. A hologram is that thing they played of Tupac at his concert. Thats not him. On Crait that is Luke. It's his essence, his consciousness, his being, his soul. Whatever term you want to use. He is there. To not get this is just mind boggling.

 

Calling it a hologram is just not an accurate thing to call it. A hologram is that thing they played of Tupac at his concert. Thats not him. On Crait that is Luke. It's his essence, his consciousness, his being, his soul. Whatever term you want to use. He is there. To not get this is just mind boggling.

That is not really the issue. It is such a non-issue I will accommodate you on this tangent and use the phrase "force projection."

 

 

Yes ofcourse Luke is commenting on Reys naivety. That is obvious. But, amazingly, a line of dialogue can serve more than one purpose and have more than one meaning. The idea of any person, even Luke Skywalker, facing down a whole army is ridiculous until Luke actually finds a way to do it.

Given the context, it was not foreshadowing as you contest. Yes, a dialogue can serve more than one purpose, I have never asserted otherwise, and since I have not asserted anything to the contrary, the use of the word "amazingly" was a nice, subtle, jab. My point is given the context of the dialogue, the context being the evidence, the evidence does not point to foreshadowing in which Luke force projects himself.

 

Luke force projecting himself, as opposed to leaving the island and confronting the First Order, is consistent with a persistent theme of the movie, and adheres to Luke's prior point to Rey, which is he is not going to leave the island and take on the First Order and save the universe. And he doesn't.

 

However, since the exchange has devolved to be a bit more on the personal level, with your allegation I am "badly" misunderstanding, I will make a different point. I will concede your foreshadowing argument since, apparently, any view to the contrary is "badly" misunderstanding what is occurring.

 

The existence of foreshadowing does not, as you implied, preclude Luke from addressing Rey's naivety that he is going to leave the island and take on the First Order, which is what some fans wanted and expected. Hence, I may still make my point that Rian gave a middle finger salute to those who disagree with the Luke he has created for TLJ but anticipated a Luke from the OT, a Luke who does take his light saber, joins the Rebellion, to fight evil in the galaxy. That Luke is not coming back in this film and Johnson is scoffing at such an idea by writing that line into the script. As you stated, it may be foreshadowing, but since you concede the dialogue can have "more than one purpose," and a purpose, given context, is to scoff at the notion of the old Luke rushing off with his light saber to save the galaxy, something some fans expected.

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A fast cut? Given that Luke has aged real time the people most upset about his change should be the ones old enough to have perspective to understand it.

 

Fandom and arrested development often go hand in hand though.

The point was not there was a "fast cut."

Ramon said the problem was Luke going from one movie to the next with a major change. You agreed.

 

I'm saying even if you don't read the EU, ACTUAL time has passed. The only people seeing the fast cut are those watching chronologically for the first time.

 

My agreement was more than just "I agree." Come on man, I posted more than just mere agreement.

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I already dealt with how silly I think his criticism of that line is. Made several posts about it, in fact.

 

 

I started writing that post at about 9am my time. I'm at work. It's been a busy morning, I've been writing it in bits and pieces in-between the stuff I'm actually being paid to do. Turns out, that took two hours.

 

Also, saying Solo's poor performance is due to TLJ is like saying Ant Man's is due to people not liking Infinity War.

 

I don't know, man. Ant Man has never been a major character or fan favorite, but Han Solo? He's the OG.

 

There was a lot of concern about recasting Han and Lando, two HUGELY popular characters with 40 years of pop culture currency. And there was a lot of concern about the project changing directors halfway through. And the lack of advertising. But everyone was still excited enough about it that it should have done well. I mean, it's Han ****ing Solo and Lando "Not A System, a Smooth Motherfucker" Calrissian jetting around the galaxy with Danaerys Targaryen and Chewbacca. It should have made bank, and it did not, and I think the lukewarm fan reaction to TLJ was a lot of the reason.

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The notion that any fans feel Johnson purposefully antagonized them is hilarious to me and great in a way. Im about 99% sure that's not the case but if somehow that is the case, then I applaud him for it.

 

I guess I just look at Star Wars differently than most people. I wish they woulda torn up our beliefs in the OT even more, just flat turned them on their heads. The OT is the OT and no matter what happens in the ST, those old movies are the same. The movies and trilogies need to exist on their own, in their own moments.

 

I love that Rey is a "nobody". I have a friend who asked me if id be mad if they changed that in IX by some revelation. I thought a moment and said "no, in TLJ it's important for Rey to find out this info, accept it and move on. In IX maybe something else will be important." Rey finding out who her parents are is a moment in TLJ and if they change it, it doesn't change the moment to Rey or the affect it had on her at the time.

 

Just like whatever Luke does in the ST doesnt change anything he did in the OT. He still overcame all those obstacles and accomplished what he did.

 

Some people I just think what any Star Wars movies to flat out support and feed into their thoughts on the OT. This was a big issue with the PT for me. Lucas said that we'd look at the OT differently after seeing the PT. Just not the case, I looked at the OT exactly the same. I wish Obi Wan had truly fucked up and that first time we see him in the OT we now think "you POS." That woulda been changing how we saw the OT.

 

Fact is people complain that TLJ didn't follow TFA, I disagree in all major ways but even so ESB rips apart alot of ANH. The end of ANH is a huge rebel victory of the Empire, ESB starts with that victory meaning little and the rebels in a worse spot than we saw them in ANH. ANH ends with Han coming back to save the day! He is committed to his friends and the rebels now!! Nope, pretty much first thing he says in ESB is he wants to leave again. Vader is the guy who killed Luke's dad and now Luke wants revenge! Nope Vader is Luke's dad.

 

That's what the 2nd movie in the trilogy is supposed to do though.

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The notion that any fans feel Johnson purposefully antagonized them is hilarious to me and great in a way. Im about 99% sure that's not the case but if somehow that is the case, then I applaud him for it.

 

I guess I just look at Star Wars differently than most people. I wish they woulda torn up our beliefs in the OT even more, just flat turned them on their heads. The OT is the OT and no matter what happens in the ST, those old movies are the same. The movies and trilogies need to exist on their own, in their own moments.

 

I love that Rey is a "nobody". I have a friend who asked me if id be mad if they changed that in IX by some revelation. I thought a moment and said "no, in TLJ it's important for Rey to find out this info, accept it and move on. In IX maybe something else will be important." Rey finding out who her parents are is a moment in TLJ and if they change it, it doesn't change the moment to Rey or the affect it had on her at the time.

 

Just like whatever Luke does in the ST doesnt change anything he did in the OT. He still overcame all those obstacles and accomplished what he did.

 

Some people I just think what any Star Wars movies to flat out support and feed into their thoughts on the OT. This was a big issue with the PT for me. Lucas said that we'd look at the OT differently after seeing the PT. Just not the case, I looked at the OT exactly the same. I wish Obi Wan had truly ****ed up and that first time we see him in the OT we now think "you POS." That woulda been changing how we saw the OT.

 

Fact is people complain that TLJ didn't follow TFA, I disagree in all major ways but even so ESB rips apart alot of ANH. The end of ANH is a huge rebel victory of the Empire, ESB starts with that victory meaning little and the rebels in a worse spot than we saw them in ANH. ANH ends with Han coming back to save the day! He is committed to his friends and the rebels now!! Nope, pretty much first thing he says in ESB is he wants to leave again. Vader is the guy who killed Luke's dad and now Luke wants revenge! Nope Vader is Luke's dad.

 

That's what the 2nd movie in the trilogy is supposed to do though.

ESB upped the ante, though. Gave us a fresh perspective. Something to look forward to. TLJ came in and just destroyed everything without building up something fresh.

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Some people boycotted Solo because they hated TLJ, but I think a lack of marketing and not releasing it in December had a bigger impact than them.

 

However, nearly all of my friends or just people I merely know liked TLJ, and some loved it. Very few of them saw Solo. They just weren't interested.

 

There was a long thread on one of my other forums about TLJ, but when I posted about Solo there were no replies. It's still the last post on that thread.

 

I think boycotts and what-ifs about marketing and release dates are insignificant next to the power of indifference.

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