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Why the difference in opinion between critics and fans on TLJ


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#51
The Choc

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It's very split with me. I have very big issues with the second act. But everything in act one and three is great. I also think that in terms of production design, visuals, and FX it's easily the most stunning film of the saga.

I DO feel like the ST can't be fully judged until IX comes out. TLJ changed a lot of my feelings about TFA. That's not a great thing, I agree that a lack of cohesive overall story for the ST was a huge mistake.

So I don't hate TLJ. There's complex stuff going on that I like, a lot of it didn't work, but some of it did. I think there could have been a version of Luke that wouldn't have divided people, but it's not a hill I would die on. In fact, I could live with the Luke stuff had he turned in the middle like I said, or if the middle was at least interesting.

And I won't lie, the part of me that dislikes fandom is happy to see a film that wasn't as precious with the franchise as they are.

For me TLJ makes TFA better because of clarifying that Rey is a "nobody". It takes the early scenes there and makes them much sadder. Thats the most important thing, making Rey a nobody is the best thing the ST has done. 

 

I never felt any of the "mysteries" in TFA were actually mysteries waiting to be solved. Those things like how the saber got to Maz, why Artoo turned on, how anyone had a map to Luke were never meant to be explained. They were glossed over in TFA for the sake of expediency, not to be explained in the next movie. I understood that from the very beginning with TFA. I think someone people didn't get that or maybe they got it but didn't want it to be the case. TFA is good because it does't get bogged down in the these explanations, I wouldnt want TLJ to waste its time on them either.

 

Snoke is the possible exception. I've laid out my reasons for not caring about his backstory before so I won't again. Although as opposed to the other "mysteries" I can understand why people wanted more of Snoke. Although I think Kylo killing him and taking his spot was really the only good way to go.

 

As for Luke, what you are suggesting is what I would have figured going into the movie. First sequence: grumpy Luke tells Rey to leave, 2nd sequence: Luke reluctantly agrees to train her, 3rd sequence: Reys pluckiness in training brings back the old Luke. There is nothing wrong with that and it would have worked and more people would have liked it. I think it just ends up paying lip service to Lukes depression though. I think what they did was probably the right way to go. 

 

One thing about what you said about "everything in act one and three is great". When do you consider Act 3 to start? Basically when do you think the movie gets back on track? For me its right after Finn leaves Canto Bight. We cut from there to Rey and Kylos force connection where Kylo gives his version of events to Rey, then Rey goes into the cave, then they are sitting in the tent and Luke barges in. From that point on it's great. At that point there is over an hour of the movie left. We are almost exactly halfway through the movie when they leave Canto Bight. I think maybe you are looking at the movie as "beginning, middle, end" and perhaps in your mind overestimating how long that "middle" is. For me the movie sort of gets a bit off course in that scene where they contact Maz, but it gets completely back on track once they leave Canto Bight. Thats about 30 minutes worth of screen time and even during that time we are cutting to Luke, Rey, Kylo which is all stuff I like.

 

Basically I think our opinion of the movie can be simplified to something like this:

 

Me: Beginning A, Middle B-, End A

You: Beginning A, Middle D, End A

 

Thats obviously over simplified. 



#52
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If we're going by Hollywood screenplay paradigm rules, (which ANH adhered to and has set the standard for every blockbuster since) the first act ends between 25-30 minutes. Rey has given her pitch to Luke, he's said the Jedi are over, but knows something is different about her, Poe is demoted and challenged by Leia, and Kylo launches his attack, and Leia is seemingly killed.

Generally in movies you have a few scenes of reactions to all the crazy things that just happened before the second act begins in earnest. For TLJ, this is Finn and Rose heading out, and Luke agreeing to train Rey.

The act two end and third act start happens when Rey leaves Ach To.

#53
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See, if you are saying the end is great you are talking about the entire 2nd half of the movie. 



#54
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Sorry, I meant when Rey leaves Kylo.

But I will concede the Rey/Kylo/Praetorian Guard duel is aces.

#55
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Yeah, see for me the 2nd act is pretty well divided in two parts. It changes once they leave Canto Bight. 



#56
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Tank, I fully realize we are getting into territory where you know far more than I can ever hope to, but I will attempt to respond to some of your points....

 

The real issue is that a large amount of people did NOT like TLJ, or how Luke was portrayed.  I may be in the minority on THIS board, but I don't think I am alone in how I feel about Luke or TLJ.  I fbelieve that people with similar points of view as I  have about TLJ and how Luke was written are often mis-characterized as extremists or fan-babies.  That is unfair and dismissive and I think it's grossly untrue. I don't feel I am extremist in my opinions, nor am I a rabid fan.  I am just some guy who thinks TLJ was a terrible movie, and is very frustrated with Star Wars right now, perhaps not all that different about how you feel about the PT. Just because I am personally upset by TLJ doesn't make me an extremist or crazy fan.

 
A few things... one, there is no concrete proof that "most" or even "half" of Star Wars fandom hated TLJ. This is rhetoric spewed out over and over by a subset of fans. It's these aggro fanbabies with YoutTube pages and an army of Twitter friends who are so excited they can be heard and have other people agree with them, that they have become the loudest voice. That doesn't mean they are the biggest voice.

I've poured over endless message boards and social media posts about my own work and there are two types of people who post comments. Fandom nerds and idiots. I don't mean that to be negative, I am a fandom nerd that has been posting on this site for 20 years. But most comments are negative and most are clearly semi-literate. Go to any youtube thread ever and read the comments.

The average movie goer does not go online to share their opinion. Cinephiles stick to their chosen message boards. Fandom goes wide. People who are angry and want to be heard go wide. So while it may seem like everywhere you go online people hate TLJ, that doesn't mean that's an overwhelming majority, it's just the loudest voice.

And sadly, the loudest voice tends to be the nastiest. So yes, most of the haters get labelled. But it's pretty easy to tell who is an MAGA/MRA fanbro who hates Mary Sue Rey from somebody who has legit criticisms of the movie. But if YOU aren't making claims like that, then you aren't the one being targeted with that shot. I have a crap ton of issues with TLJ, and I don't for a second come off like that. In fact, I'm a pinko commie libtard SJW homo, and yet I have all sorts of bad things to say about TLJ.

The criticism of Luke specifically though is a unique thing from the usual noise. It comes down to him being a different character, and people just can't get their heads around it. That doesn't make it wrong, but on the flip side that doesn't mean it was done well, which is my point.

 

I will concede that there is no good metric to measure exactly how many  like or dislike TLJ.  So yeah, maybe it is not half.  Maybe not even a 1/3.  Who knows?  The closest we have is rotten tomatoes, and I know that isn't a very scientific source. But we do know it is a significant enough of people that are making noise about the fact they are not happy with TLJ, well beyond the typical amount of people that can't be pleased no matter what is done, and not all of them are on youtube or social media, either.  TLJ has caused such rancor that it has inspired enough people to step up and say TLJ sucks, and in significant numbers.  

 

I totally get that there are a ton of people on social media that fit exactly what you are talking about.  I even get that in some cases their arguments intersect with what I consider more reasonable critics of TLJ, like myself. However those are not the ones I am talking about.  I am talking about average people like me. Maybe I am not an average movie goer, because here I am talking about this movie online, but this is literally the ONLY forum I talk about Star Wars to anyone.

 

I don't want to talk in circles about all that, though.   What I would like to point out is that there are a LOT of people who did not like TLJ, and that point alone is significant because if there wasn't something wrong, there wouldn't be so many people expressing that their issues with the movie.   No other single movie, including the PT, has divided the Star Wars fan base the way TLJ has.  So, if it is half the fan base, 1/3, or even just 1/4, that is still significant, because I am seeing (and even saying it myself) a lot of fans, not casual movie goers but fans, saying they don't even care what happens and may not even see episode 9 in theaters.  Until now, that was unheard of, even taking the PT into account. This is my point, and I see it as a problem. 

 

 

 

All of that is subjective. There are people out there who love what went down with Luke. I get it, I've been on the other side of this argument on this website for 20 years. I think the PT is completely wrong and terrible. And after 20 years of yelling about, and now being on the other side of fan anger, I realize it was a lot of wasted time. I can't change the movies. I've made my points clearly. If I can't get over it and I am made about a movie from 20 years ago, that's kind of on me.

I know and I get that this is all a waste of time, and this is a discussion 99.9% of people couldn't care less about, and of course there are those who like TLJ and how Luke was handled.  I don't mean to imply that there isn't.  And yes, it is on me if I am talking about a movie from 20 years ago.  But I am not.  I am talking about one that came out less than 9 months ago, that is still part of a franchise still producing movies.  So, from that point of view, I think it is still perfectly valid to discuss TLJ, or complain about it...essentially give feedback.  Maybe Disney LFL feels that negative feedback is irrelevant, and I am sure my opinion is, but unlike a movie that was filmed and in the can for 20 years, there is at least a ghost of a chance that based on the negative feedback TLJ received, that someone at Disney LFL will see that there are a number of people saying they don't like what Disney LFL is selling, and perhaps they will think twice and consider those opinions for the next movie.  From that perspective, then maybe it is worthwhile discussing TLJ.

 

 

 

100% disagree. One, Lucas was the one who had the idea of Luke being in exile. That's what he wanted in TFA. When JJ couldn't figure out how to solve it he pushed that beat back to the very end. Two, the PT is proof positive that in no will fandom universally agree that whatever he makes up has merit.

 

Luke being an exile was just one idea Lucas had.  We all know he is famous for having all kinds of ideas that go off in all kinds of tangents.  But let's say Lucas did end up making the ST himself and did use that idea.  I think we would have received a very different version of Luke in exile.  I think we wouldn't have Luke casually tossing lightsabers over his shoulder, or pulling one on his own student, or a Luke who has given up on life and is just sitting around waiting to die.  But perhaps that is all academic because we will never know how Lucas would have done it.  

 

As to JJ pushing Luke off to Episode 8, that again drives home the point how RJ effed up handling Luke. JJ put all kinds of emphasis on the lightsaber (another story for another time), and Rey's origins, and why Luke left a map to find him if he didn't want to be found in the first place.  RJ basically trash canned all the set up JJ had provided, and for me, that is a problem.

 

 

 

I see this all over the place online. First, it was taken from a video interview he gave in 2005. Second, as I said above, you cannot go into making a film trying to please everyone. If you play it safe, you'll have an empty hollow movie. You have to make bold decisions. People take this statement as him saying he intentionally WANTS to alienate half his audience. That's not what he is saying. He is saying he would rather illicit an emotional reaction than indifference. He'd rather have people hate the movie than not care.

That's filmmaking 101, you don't set out with the goal of not-moving people. That said I'm sure more than once he giggled over his keyboard saying "oh man, this will piss off the nerds," but to say he intentionally struck out to alienate fandom and dismantle Star Wars is silly. 

I don't dispute that a writer has to write a story that isn't empty and hollow.  However, you also have to consider that when one is writing for a property like Star Wars, there IS a certain amount of responsibility  to recognize that there are certain "rules" that universe has to play by based on what came before, and certain expectations people will have.  I, along with probably a whole generation or two of fans who grew up on the OT had all kinds of ideas how they wanted to see Luke portrayed.  You touch on that as well.  It's one thing to take writing in a bold, unexpected, or different direction.  But what should also be considered by a writer before going in that direction is if that direction will alienate a lot of people.  I think Rian Johnson, in an effort to be bold as you put it, took things in a direction that in fact alienated a significant amount of people, and didn't seem to care.  When he is then quoted, be it 2005 or 2018, one can only conclude he did in fact (at least on some level) actually enjoyed doing that.  And for some people, like me, that is a problem.


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#57
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But we do know it is a significant enough of people that are making noise about the fact they are not happy with TLJ, well beyond the typical amount of people that can't be pleased no matter what is done, and not all of them are on youtube or social media, either.  TLJ has caused such rancor that it has inspired enough people to step up and say TLJ sucks, and in significant numbers.

Again, there's no proof of that beyond the unhappy voices being the loudest. Volume doesn't equal numbers. Honestly, box office numbers are still the best datametric and TLJ did fine. Solo on the other hand... I think if IX has low numbers too, then I'd be more willing to buy that more than aggro fans hate the movie.
 

I totally get that there are a ton of people on social media that fit exactly what you are talking about.  I even get that in some cases their arguments intersect with what I consider more reasonable critics of TLJ, like myself. However those are not the ones I am talking about.  I am talking about average people like me. Maybe I am not an average movie goer, because here I am talking about this movie online, but this is literally the ONLY forum I talk about Star Wars to anyone.

But no one here is accusing you of being racist or sexist are they?
 

What I would like to point out is that there are a LOT of people who did not like TLJ, and that point alone is significant because if there wasn't something wrong, there wouldn't be so many people expressing that their issues with the movie.   No other single movie, including the PT, has divided the Star Wars fan base the way TLJ has.

I disagree with you on this one. The PT is hated by most people, fan or average. Near as I can tell, the only people who like the PT are people who grew up with it as "their" Star Wars, or big Star Wars fans who like everything. Not everyone will fit that, but I do think that is the majority. Just from a technical and basic filmmaking angle the PT is objectively bad. Lucas wanted to break the rules so hard, that in impacted the quality. Even if you hate TLJ's story you can't deny it's construction and quality level blows the PT out of the water.

I know and I get that this is all a waste of time, and this is a discussion 99.9% of people couldn't care less about, and of course there are those who like TLJ and how Luke was handled.  I don't mean to imply that there isn't.  And yes, it is on me if I am talking about a movie from 20 years ago.  But I am not.  I am talking about one that came out less than 9 months ago, that is still part of a franchise still producing movies.  So, from that point of view, I think it is still perfectly valid to discuss TLJ, or complain about it...essentially give feedback.  Maybe Disney LFL feels that negative feedback is irrelevant, and I am sure my opinion is, but unlike a movie that was filmed and in the can for 20 years, there is at least a ghost of a chance that based on the negative feedback TLJ received, that someone at Disney LFL will see that there are a number of people saying they don't like what Disney LFL is selling, and perhaps they will think twice and consider those opinions for the next movie.  From that perspective, then maybe it is worthwhile discussing TLJ.

I would never say it isn't worthwhile (again, I still like to get mad about the PT). If people went to vent, they totally have that right. I'm not levelling my finger at you, but those aggro fans on the train of hate. Again, it's those crappy fans being the loudest that makes everyone else tired of the anti TLJ stuff. They are literally ruining it for both sides. If you like TLJ, you want them to shut up. If you donm't like TLJ, your legit argument is lost in the mix of the fanbabies crying.
 

Luke being an exile was just one idea Lucas had.  We all know he is famous for having all kinds of ideas that go off in all kinds of tangents.  But let's say Lucas did end up making the ST himself and did use that idea.  I think we would have received a very different version of Luke in exile.  I think we wouldn't have Luke casually tossing lightsabers over his shoulder, or pulling one on his own student, or a Luke who has given up on life and is just sitting around waiting to die.  But perhaps that is all academic because we will never know how Lucas would have done it.

It's hard to say. The PT is full of really bad ideas straight from Lucas. The guy who made ANH and THX is long, long gone. I don't think you'll ever convince me Lucas would have made a better ST than what we have. I'd even hazard to say he might ruin the characters even more.  
 

We all know he is As to JJ pushing Luke off to Episode 8, that again drives home the point how RJ effed up handling Luke. JJ put all kinds of emphasis on the lightsaber (another story for another time), and Rey's origins, and why Luke left a map to find him if he didn't want to be found in the first place.  RJ basically trash canned all the set up JJ had provided, and for me, that is a problem.

Again, no argument here. I don't like JJ's penchant for mysteries that have no solutions, and I don't like RJ pulling a round robin and just tossing out whatever to do his own thing. Regardless of which side of the TLJ argument you're on, the one thing everyone agrees on is that there should have been ONE solid through line for the ST trilogy. Even the PT managed that.

However, you also have to consider that when one is writing for a property like Star Wars, there IS a certain amount of responsibility  to recognize that there are certain "rules" that universe has to play by based on what came before, and certain expectations people will have.  I, along with probably a whole generation or two of fans who grew up on the OT had all kinds of ideas how they wanted to see Luke portrayed.  You touch on that as well.  It's one thing to take writing in a bold, unexpected, or different direction.  But what should also be considered by a writer before going in that direction is if that direction will alienate a lot of people.

I am loathe to use myself as an example, but I wrote a prequel/origin story for a famous horror icon. I was faced with trying to honor the legacy, play by the rules, but at the same time-- and I know I said this, but you don't go into making a movie to play it safe. This will sound conceited, but a lot of time fandom doesn't actually know what it wants. If you play by the rules, and do what people expect, even if they BEGGED for that, once they see it, it won't move them, and they won't like it. Hollywood is full of sequels that don't up the stakes and try to just do the same thing a second time, and it only works when you have a killer cast that can carry it with personality. ESB is a great example of doing something tonally and visually un expected. It retconned things from ANH and carried on just a couple plot points.

It's a carnal sin in movie making to do something that's already been done. It just never works. In my case, I decided to do something for the movie I was writing. I wasn't breaking rules, but I also wasn't going with what was expected. Specifically, Leatherface is always portrayed as a gibbering simp who is very far from being a normal person. The assumption has always been, he is born into a cannibal hillbilly family and had no choice but to be what he was-- a freak. I had a great datametric in that while I was making a prequel to the original film, there had been a prequel made for the REMAKE of TCM. And that movie did exactly what I just described. They gave people exactly the young Leatherface that you'd expect... and people hatred it. I had the choice of doing what was STILL expected by fandom (despite there already being a bad example of it) or I had an idea that would work, not be out of continuity, but would definitely be unexpected. I knew half of Chainsaw fans would love it, half would hate it. I didn't WANT to piss off half my audience, but at the same time, I was hired to deliver an movie that had to stand on its own and make an impact. So I did the unexpected thing. There was never any question. In fact, that unexpected thing was part of my pitch and it's what got me the job.

Again, I agree a path could have been taken with Luke that was unexpected, but also more true... but no one working on the film cracked that.

I think Rian Johnson, in an effort to be bold as you put it, took things in a direction that in fact alienated a significant amount of people, and didn't seem to care.  When he is then quoted, be it 2005 or 2018, one can only conclude he did in fact (at least on some level) actually enjoyed doing that.  And for some people, like me, that is a problem.

You CAN'T care. The second you do, you compromise your own confidence. I say that as somebody writing low budget horror movies. To be writing AND directing an installment of the biggest franchise ever? It's impossible to do that without some ego. Again, I agree that Rian missed the mark, but the dude is a Star Wars fan and I will forever argue that he went into it with the intent of breaking fandom and ruining anything.
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#58
The Choc

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Its funny looking at Tanks comment earlier about how you can't compare critics in 1980 from today because many today are just fans with blogs. I read a review from Stalog magazine written in May of 1980, which is probably as close you can get to a fan with a blog or a fan writing on a messageboard in 1980.

 

Some of his complaints made me laugh in terms of their similarity to complaints today.

 

First was how Han, Leia and Chewie left the falcon on the asteroid with only oxygen masks on when they should need full space suits. He also complained about how there shouldn't be gravity and they should be bouncing around. Made me think of how people complained bombs dropped in TFA or how the Falcon should not have been able to slow down quickly enough when exiting light speed so close to Starkiller Base.

 

Another was he complained how Yoda was so against Luke leaving why did he raise the XWing. That there was no logic in him raising the XWing. Made me think of people complaining about the lack of logic in terms of the First Order not having a ship lightspeed in front of the Resistance cruiser or the lack of logic in terms of Hux not telling Poe of her plan.

 

There were more criticisms of Empire in that article that really just made me chuckle due to how closely they resembled equally ridiculous complaints about The Last Jedi. 


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#59
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The gamble that SW is taking with the ST is trying to appeal to old fans and new, which is tricky. Lots of old fans were upset about Hans portrayal in TFA and Lukes portrayal in TLJ. I was fine with Han, but not Luke.

As for the new characters, I think most of them suck. From what I hear the merchandise isnt selling well, so I wonder if theyre catching on with younger viewers.

The attempt, though, is nothing new. You see it in all forms of entertainment. The NFL, for one, banks on its established fans while trying to attract new fans. They made rule changes to try and make the game more exciting to younger viewers and they pretended to care about breast cancer in order to appeal to women. Currently theyre flirting with putting a franchise overseas, All of these changes have diluted the product for old school fans, but overall theyre doing just fine.

Pro wrestling always targets younger audiences with the hope that older fans will roll with the changes. As much as I hate the current product, I have to give them credit because its clearly working. The younger fans are watching while most of the older fans hate watch, presumably so they can bitch about it online. Regardless people still watch and thats all the WWE care about.

One interesting example of trying to appeal to old and new fans is Resident Evil. Im a huge fan of the old games, which focused on suspense, ambiance, and problem solving, but later morphed into more action oriented gaming This appealed to younger players and alienated us old farts. After they jumped the shark with a really bad game (6) they made an attempt to woo older gamers back while still appealing to younger gamers (7). It underperformed. Their next attempt will be similar to 7, a remake of RE 2, which is a game that came out 20 years ago. Early trailers indicate that its another attempt to appeal to both young and old.

As for SW I certainly believe that they want to appeal to all fans, but they have to be concerned. If they lose the older audience they better be sure they can replace them, which I think will be harder than they anticipated.

#60
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You know what else I hate about TLJ? Rey's woo-hoos! when she's piloting the falcon and hits a target. I hated that in TFA too. They sound so forced.
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#61
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At least they're better than 'Yippee'



#62
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I'm obviously going to watch episode IX even though I'm not looking forward to it. But to be honest, over the past few months of coping with how bad the series has become I actually started to accept it. Nothing lasts forever, not even Star Wars. I guess I could just keep the OT on the mantle and come to terms with scrapping the rest and maybe just look forward to the next big franchise thatll be delivered by some yet to be discovered genius. Is that so hard to accept? That maybe it's time for new creations instead of Hollywood just constantly trying to revamp the old? Is that doing justice to our children if they can't have their own thing, instead just be forced to swallow what their grandparents loved as kids?

#63
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Ha. Well you come up with an idea then big brains

To start off, you clarified that you weren't going for the Grey Jedi thing, which is what I thought.

 

Keeping with what was set up by JJ, which I think was all about the mystery box and not about the story, I would put Luke in a place where he's found peace, rather than being in hiding.  You can tell the exact same story, and include the Ben-killer storyline, and then have him say that he was conflicted since then, and felt the Dark Side pulling at him, but he found peace here, where the Jedi started.  He has no interest in going back to the battle because he believes this is where the Force wants him to be.  

 

You get the same basic storyline, only you still can honor the character that we grew up with at least slightly more.  He isn't running from fear, but rather staying for something in what he loves.

 

I would have Rey convince Luke to train her, and have Luke's line altered slightly to say he's never experienced such raw power before, even with Ben.  That could still frighten him, and the scene where she's sensing the cave and goes to it could play out the same.  


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#64
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fozzie I want to wish you good luck. We’re all counting on you.

#65
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Hey Fozzie! Tex posted! Did you see it? He really wants you to pay attention him!

#66
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Thanks Tank! I would hate it if I missed one of his deep and meaningful posts.
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#67
Darth Wicket

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Its funny looking at Tanks comment earlier about how you can't compare critics in 1980 from today because many today are just fans with blogs. I read a review from Stalog magazine written in May of 1980, which is probably as close you can get to a fan with a blog or a fan writing on a messageboard in 1980.

 

Some of his complaints made me laugh in terms of their similarity to complaints today.

 

First was how Han, Leia and Chewie left the falcon on the asteroid with only oxygen masks on when they should need full space suits. He also complained about how there shouldn't be gravity and they should be bouncing around. Made me think of how people complained bombs dropped in TFA or how the Falcon should not have been able to slow down quickly enough when exiting light speed so close to Starkiller Base.

 

Another was he complained how Yoda was so against Luke leaving why did he raise the XWing. That there was no logic in him raising the XWing. Made me think of people complaining about the lack of logic in terms of the First Order not having a ship lightspeed in front of the Resistance cruiser or the lack of logic in terms of Hux not telling Poe of her plan.

 

There were more criticisms of Empire in that article that really just made me chuckle due to how closely they resembled equally ridiculous complaints about The Last Jedi. 

Questioning why Star Wars does not follow the laws of physics is one thing. Star Wars has never even pretended to do so. However, I believe it is not a bad thing to question characters' motivations in Star Wars or any other movie for that matter. When characters do things that seem unreasonable, it makes certain parts of the story seem less believable. Not that all criticisms of motivations are valid, but at the same time, I don't think they should be readily dismissed as being ridiculous.



#68
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Maybe they aren't ridiculous but at the least they aren't rendered equally across all the movies. No one ever says "hey the Empire knows the Rebel Attack on the Death Star is dangerous but they only send 3 TIE fighters". No one would ever question why the transports need to go right by Star Destroyers in Empire but not long later Luke and evidently most of the rebel fleet leave completely unmolested" No one every says "Why would the Emperor give the real location of the shield generator to the Rebellion when a fake location would work just as well."



#69
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Maybe they aren't ridiculous but at the least they aren't rendered equally across all the movies. No one ever says "hey the Empire knows the Rebel Attack on the Death Star is dangerous but they only send 3 TIE fighters". No one would ever question why the transports need to go right by Star Destroyers in Empire but not long later Luke and evidently most of the rebel fleet leave completely unmolested" No one every says "Why would the Emperor give the real location of the shield generator to the Rebellion when a fake location would work just as well."

In my opinion, all the movies are up for criticism (OT, PT, ST) except for the Holiday Special. :D

 

I think maybe the disparity in the volume of criticism may come from a few things:

1. The OT was released before the World Wide Web, so like you said, much of the criticism back then came from either sci-fi magazines or word of mouth. Starting with the PT in 1999, we all had this message board to discuss the movie.

2. Many of us were kids back when the OT was released. Perhaps when people get older, they tend to look at movies with a more critical eye than kids do.

3. I think it is widely recognized that the OT is the best so far of the bunch, so maybe (unfairly) people tend to ignore criticisms of it.

4. The ST is still on going, so it is still fresh in peoples' minds.



#70
The Choc

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I agree with all of what you say but my point is basically #3. 



#71
Tex

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Thanks Tank! I would hate it if I missed one of his deep and meaningful posts.


Can we just stop and talk about Fozzie for a minute? This guy is awesome!

#72
James Madison

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A possible explanation is the expectation, an expectation planted by Abrams in Force Awakens, of what shouldve occurred in Last Jedi did not manifest itself.

Abrams, in TFA, set the stage for Luke to return, as opposed to Luke, in hiding, not wanting to be found and vowing never to come back and involve himself in political and military affairs. After all, theres a map showing Lukes location, implying he left clues of his location behind.

Both sides, Resistance and the First Order, desperately want the map, for obviously different reasons. Snoke fears Luke and says if Luke is found, then the new Jedi will rise. So, First Order wants the map to send Luke off on a permanent force ghost vacation. The Resistance seeks the map because Luke can help them, and as Lora San Tekka said, bring balance.

For fans, Abrams set them up to see the Luke of the OT return to action, and Rian Johnson didnt follow through the with the narrative. Hence, fans disappointment.

Critics, however, can, from a cinematic point of view, explain away the seemingly divergent story in Last Jedi, and in doing so, make a decent argument Johnsons own trail making was genius. Luke, perhaps doesnt retreat to Ahch-To initially to be a hermit, but after some time spent alone with creatures who are great conversationalists because they apparently do not speak English, reflecting on what went wrong, studying the Jedi history, he then subsequently decides it is time for the Jedi to die and to remain hidden.

For the critics, this is good cinematic story writing, a kind of symmetry. Luke experienced the pain and trauma of confronting his father. Now, hes confronted with similar pain and trauma as his nephew, his sisters son who entrusted Luke to teach her son in such a manner as to avoid the next iteration of a family Vader. But this time hes not the savior, hes the catalyst for Bens fall. Immersed with guilt and shame, haunted by the fact he let Leia down since hes the reason her only beloved son has gone dark, and not wanting to confront his nephew, specifically having to kill the monster he at the least sparked into existence, decides it is time to bow out.

Cinematically, TLJ is great story writing. TLJ is a very good story. Yet, fans are disappointed and perhaps the reason why also because of a sincerely held point of view.

Such a view is to ask who do you think you are Rian Johnson, to fundamentally change a character you didnt create, whose personality and traits were cast and molded over 40 years ago, and dang near burn down the existing Star Wars house you didnt create but was set and established 40 years ago. Hence, fans feel betrayed. Maybe they are right.
  • Odine +1 this

#73
Iceheart

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Furthermore, if Luke was really running away to end the Jedi, he didn't bother to tell anyone? Not tell Leia or Han? "Hey, don't come looking for me." Just he's up and gone?

 

I left Facebook about a month ago and only told my nearest and dearest privately so they could keep me accountable (not something I'd expect Luke to burden Han and Leia with, especially since his reason for leaving was to atone for failing them and his nephew). I ghosted mostly because I remember how much everyone hated the "I'M LEAVING FOREVER!" ploy for attention threads that were allllllll over Star Wars Chicks back in the day, and I didn't want to give those optics.

 

But then my phone broke and I lost all my contacts. So, I went back to Facebook while my phone was being fixed, so I could recoup my contacts list and not go completely dark. And I told everyone why I had left while asking for help with my missing contacts. And took some flack for making ANY public announcement whatsoever, looking like I'm so high-and-mighty-and-not-basic by "bragging" about leaving Facebook on Facebook.

 

So, I mean, as far as public opinion is concerned, you can be a ghost, or you can be an attention whore. Is it any wonder Jedi Master Luke chose the former?

 

Besides, Jedi Master-In-Exile is one of the biggest SW tropes (and Master-In-Exile is one of the biggest general tropes).

 

Anyway, speaking of Star Wars Chicks, anyone remember Emerald Angel? She's my mom. Clearly, I still stay in touch - saw TLJ with her, even. She hated it. I was meh about it.

 

She was a teenager when ANH came out, and she adored everything about it from her second viewing. When I asked why she hated TLJ, the first thing she said was that Rian Johnson burned the Jedi Library. As far as she was concerned, that scene was a big ol' middle finger to the original fans like herself, and was a signal that the Star Wars they've known and loved for 41 years was over, even as the franchise was just picking back up. After that it was the usual fan complaints - the new characters aren't interesting enough, Rey is just a Luke rehash, Leia Poppins, etc, etc.

 

I mean, she even liked the PT (granted, being able to share current Star Wars with her teen and pre-teen kids probably factored into that. We're all grown now, and she doesn't have any grandkids to get into Star Wars with).

 

My second-generation fan self has only seen TLJ once, so I'm not really in a great place to fully review it, but I thought it was too long and stretched too thin. For instance, I like Rose Tico as a character, but I wish that they had given her a better story line that served the overarching plot more. And I had a hard time keeping the thread of what was happening during the slo-mo space chase parts, but I'm not sure if that's because the dialogue wasn't effective at conveying exactly what was happening, or if it was and I just forgot about it because there was so much jumping around and so much to keep track of.

 

It is what it is, I guess.



#74
Brando

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I don't think the Facebook comparison works.

This is leaving your family with the intent of never seeing them again. That's a dick move.

#75
Iceheart

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I left after a major blow-up with a family member, actually. And leaving Facebook is cutting a LOT of people out of my life, including family members, who I have vowed to never see again. Facebook isn't just the hub of the internet anymore, it's the hub of everything.

 

But that was supposed to be a hyperbolic example, thanks for humorlessly noticing.

 

In Luke's case, though, I don't think he saw it as a dick move, he saw it as a merciful move. After Ben turned, Leia and Han's marriage broke up. That's a LOT to feel responsible for, and if I were Luke, I'd want to ghost, too, if only because I'd feel like not only was I responsible for everything that had happened, but anything that might happen were I to stick around. I'd doubt Han and Leia would want to see my face or hear my name.





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