But we do know it is a significant enough of people that are making noise about the fact they are not happy with TLJ, well beyond the typical amount of people that can't be pleased no matter what is done, and not all of them are on youtube or social media, either. TLJ has caused such rancor that it has inspired enough people to step up and say TLJ sucks, and in significant numbers.
Again, there's no proof of that beyond the unhappy voices being the loudest. Volume doesn't equal numbers. Honestly, box office numbers are still the best datametric and TLJ did fine. Solo on the other hand... I think if IX has low numbers too, then I'd be more willing to buy that more than aggro fans hate the movie.
I totally get that there are a ton of people on social media that fit exactly what you are talking about. I even get that in some cases their arguments intersect with what I consider more reasonable critics of TLJ, like myself. However those are not the ones I am talking about. I am talking about average people like me. Maybe I am not an average movie goer, because here I am talking about this movie online, but this is literally the ONLY forum I talk about Star Wars to anyone.
But no one here is accusing you of being racist or sexist are they?
What I would like to point out is that there are a LOT of people who did not like TLJ, and that point alone is significant because if there wasn't something wrong, there wouldn't be so many people expressing that their issues with the movie. No other single movie, including the PT, has divided the Star Wars fan base the way TLJ has.
I disagree with you on this one. The PT is hated by most people, fan or average. Near as I can tell, the only people who like the PT are people who grew up with it as "their" Star Wars, or big Star Wars fans who like everything. Not everyone will fit that, but I do think that is the majority. Just from a technical and basic filmmaking angle the PT is objectively bad. Lucas wanted to break the rules so hard, that in impacted the quality. Even if you hate TLJ's story you can't deny it's construction and quality level blows the PT out of the water.
I know and I get that this is all a waste of time, and this is a discussion 99.9% of people couldn't care less about, and of course there are those who like TLJ and how Luke was handled. I don't mean to imply that there isn't. And yes, it is on me if I am talking about a movie from 20 years ago. But I am not. I am talking about one that came out less than 9 months ago, that is still part of a franchise still producing movies. So, from that point of view, I think it is still perfectly valid to discuss TLJ, or complain about it...essentially give feedback. Maybe Disney LFL feels that negative feedback is irrelevant, and I am sure my opinion is, but unlike a movie that was filmed and in the can for 20 years, there is at least a ghost of a chance that based on the negative feedback TLJ received, that someone at Disney LFL will see that there are a number of people saying they don't like what Disney LFL is selling, and perhaps they will think twice and consider those opinions for the next movie. From that perspective, then maybe it is worthwhile discussing TLJ.
I would never say it isn't worthwhile (again, I still like to get mad about the PT). If people went to vent, they totally have that right. I'm not levelling my finger at you, but those aggro fans on the train of hate. Again, it's those crappy fans being the loudest that makes everyone else tired of the anti TLJ stuff. They are literally ruining it for both sides. If you like TLJ, you want them to shut up. If you donm't like TLJ, your legit argument is lost in the mix of the fanbabies crying.
Luke being an exile was just one idea Lucas had. We all know he is famous for having all kinds of ideas that go off in all kinds of tangents. But let's say Lucas did end up making the ST himself and did use that idea. I think we would have received a very different version of Luke in exile. I think we wouldn't have Luke casually tossing lightsabers over his shoulder, or pulling one on his own student, or a Luke who has given up on life and is just sitting around waiting to die. But perhaps that is all academic because we will never know how Lucas would have done it.
It's hard to say. The PT is full of really bad ideas straight from Lucas. The guy who made ANH and THX is long, long gone. I don't think you'll ever convince me Lucas would have made a better ST than what we have. I'd even hazard to say he might ruin the characters even more.
We all know he is As to JJ pushing Luke off to Episode 8, that again drives home the point how RJ effed up handling Luke. JJ put all kinds of emphasis on the lightsaber (another story for another time), and Rey's origins, and why Luke left a map to find him if he didn't want to be found in the first place. RJ basically trash canned all the set up JJ had provided, and for me, that is a problem.
Again, no argument here. I don't like JJ's penchant for mysteries that have no solutions, and I don't like RJ pulling a round robin and just tossing out whatever to do his own thing. Regardless of which side of the TLJ argument you're on, the one thing everyone agrees on is that there should have been ONE solid through line for the ST trilogy. Even the PT managed that.
However, you also have to consider that when one is writing for a property like Star Wars, there IS a certain amount of responsibility to recognize that there are certain "rules" that universe has to play by based on what came before, and certain expectations people will have. I, along with probably a whole generation or two of fans who grew up on the OT had all kinds of ideas how they wanted to see Luke portrayed. You touch on that as well. It's one thing to take writing in a bold, unexpected, or different direction. But what should also be considered by a writer before going in that direction is if that direction will alienate a lot of people.
I am loathe to use myself as an example, but I wrote a prequel/origin story for a famous horror icon. I was faced with trying to honor the legacy, play by the rules, but at the same time-- and I know I said this, but you don't go into making a movie to play it safe. This will sound conceited, but a lot of time fandom doesn't actually know what it wants. If you play by the rules, and do what people expect, even if they BEGGED for that, once they see it, it won't move them, and they won't like it. Hollywood is full of sequels that don't up the stakes and try to just do the same thing a second time, and it only works when you have a killer cast that can carry it with personality. ESB is a great example of doing something tonally and visually un expected. It retconned things from ANH and carried on just a couple plot points.
It's a carnal sin in movie making to do something that's already been done. It just never works. In my case, I decided to do something for the movie I was writing. I wasn't breaking rules, but I also wasn't going with what was expected. Specifically, Leatherface is always portrayed as a gibbering simp who is very far from being a normal person. The assumption has always been, he is born into a cannibal hillbilly family and had no choice but to be what he was-- a freak. I had a great datametric in that while I was making a prequel to the original film, there had been a prequel made for the REMAKE of TCM. And that movie did exactly what I just described. They gave people exactly the young Leatherface that you'd expect... and people hatred it. I had the choice of doing what was STILL expected by fandom (despite there already being a bad example of it) or I had an idea that would work, not be out of continuity, but would definitely be unexpected. I knew half of Chainsaw fans would love it, half would hate it. I didn't WANT to piss off half my audience, but at the same time, I was hired to deliver an movie that had to stand on its own and make an impact. So I did the unexpected thing. There was never any question. In fact, that unexpected thing was part of my pitch and it's what got me the job.
Again, I agree a path could have been taken with Luke that was unexpected, but also more true... but no one working on the film cracked that.
I think Rian Johnson, in an effort to be bold as you put it, took things in a direction that in fact alienated a significant amount of people, and didn't seem to care. When he is then quoted, be it 2005 or 2018, one can only conclude he did in fact (at least on some level) actually enjoyed doing that. And for some people, like me, that is a problem.
You CAN'T care. The second you do, you compromise your own confidence. I say that as somebody writing low budget horror movies. To be writing AND directing an installment of the biggest franchise ever? It's impossible to do that without some ego. Again, I agree that Rian missed the mark, but the dude is a Star Wars fan and I will forever argue that he went into it with the intent of breaking fandom and ruining anything.