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Hopefully they just did an MS Word find & replace and changed Leia to Lando. Including an emotional scene with Ben, so we find out that Lando is his real mother.

He's a TV guy originally. You write TV with an endless string of hooks. It's soap opera 101. He LIVES for the hook. Lost and Alias lived and died by the hook/cliffhanger.   He also came up on super h

I like all 4 of the Disney movies, to me they are just gifts I never expected to get. Hopefully IX will keep that going and I suspect it will.

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There's plans... and then there's PLANS.

 

In serialized TV we break things on the general first, and get specific later. We plan arcs at once-- like stories in 8 episode chunks. We say, In episode 1 this has to happen. By episode 3, we know this. By episode 8 they get to this conclusion.

 

We know WHAT has to happen, but not HOW it happens. When we get to breaking individual episodes we go into far more detail.

 

Using Star Wars as an example, you could say--

 

In episode 4, Luke gets sucked into an adventure against the empire to save a woman he doesn't realize is his sister.

 

In episode 5, he'll grow in experience and power, but he'll find out the villain is his dad.

 

In episode 6, he'll come into his own, face his dad, but blah blah blah

 

You know the signposts, the big beats. You still have plenty of room and exploration when you get to making the individually.

 

Lucas.film didn't even go this far, and they should have.

 

In episode 7 the search for Luke is activity by a new generation of heroes, one of whom is destined to be a Jedi, and we learn Luke's own nephew has gone evil.

 

In episode 8, we find Luke, but blah blah blah.

 

It is never a good idea to start into a serialized story without a rough idea of where you are going. Even if you change the plan, you need to have some sort of goal.

 

The ST was basically treated like a round robin story, which I don't think worked out well.

 

Honestly, the idea that TFA and TLJ don't work well together is the one criticism that baffles me most. I guess I, and Rian Johnson I suppose, just saw TFA somewhat differently than most did. Pretty much all the big, important things that happened in TLJ went as I expected.

At the risk of starting another semantical argument...

 

it's again, all about theme. Sure they lined up narratively, but not thematically. Everything about TFA was a love letter to the past. Specifically, ANH. JJ is a sucker for nostalgia, and did everything he could to make a film that celebrated ANH and put it on a pedestal. And, TLJ, as discussed, was about moving on from the past. Those to themes are pretty contrary.

 

Given that JJ lives for nostalgia, I don't exactly trust it will feel even.

 

There was a tonal shift too, for sure-- but that's less of a problem. The differences between ANH and ESB are tonal, not thematic.

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TFA was a love letter to Star Wars for sure, but the idea of dealing with the past is present for sure. I mean Rey is lying to herself about her past. Han is running away from his. Kylo kills Han in an effort to sever himself from his past. I mean the whole "let the past die" thing is in TFA because he literally tries to kill his past.

 

Also I think the idea that Johnson was somehow trying to kill Star Wars past or something is way overblown. I mean I think through all 4 Disney movies the very best use of nostalgia and Ot imagery is when Artoo plays the hologram for Luke.

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So what would possess lucas film or Disney to not have the episodic major story beats planned out? Fear of not knowing what to do? Hubris? Why would they not want to know the direction they are going and the stops they need to make before handing the keys to different directors? I feel like JJ may have played it safe but at least he made it feel good and was a smooth ride. With Rian Johnston I felt like he was drunk at the wheel, passed out for a bit, came to again later on in the journey. Meanwhile I'm trying to bail but the doors are locked.

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So what would possess lucas film or Disney to not have the episodic major story beats planned out? Fear of not knowing what to do? Hubris? Why would they not want to know the direction they are going and the stops they need to make before handing the keys to different directors? I feel like JJ may have played it safe but at least he made it feel good and was a smooth ride. With Rian Johnston I felt like he was drunk at the wheel, passed out for a bit, came to again later on in the journey. Meanwhile I'm trying to bail but the doors are locked.

Wanting to hire talented film makers and give them the freedom to be creative and make movies that didn't have to fit exactly into what fans thought they'd be. But I suppose everyone does like Memba Berries and the reaction form some quarters to TLJ unfortunately may mean we will be getting a steady diet of them.

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So what would possess lucas film or Disney to not have the episodic major story beats planned out? Fear of not knowing what to do? Hubris? Why would they not want to know the direction they are going and the stops they need to make before handing the keys to different directors? I feel like JJ may have played it safe but at least he made it feel good and was a smooth ride. With Rian Johnston I felt like he was drunk at the wheel, passed out for a bit, came to again later on in the journey. Meanwhile I'm trying to bail but the doors are locked.

My guess: Disney-era LFL didn't quite know how to handle Star Wars. It seemed like they were trying to replicate what was being done by the MCU, but couldn't quite figure out how Kevin Feige did what he did, or what his formula was. They signed JJ up to do TFA, but the rest of the writers/directors that were signed up were lesser known people. Maybe it was a well-intentioned attempt to give new and up-and-coming writers/directors a chance to re-invigorate Star Wars, and they didn't give much thought to the fact you can't really do that with a 40 year old franchise with a fanbase that has certain expectations. I understand JJ getting signed up because he's this generation's equivalent to Spielberg and he was supposed to set the tone for the rest of ST, Jon Kasdan, Lawrence Kasdan's son, makes sense because of his connection made sense to write Solo, Ron Howard replacing Lord and Miller on Solo makes sense to me because he's a veteran film maker and LFL didn't like Lord and Miller's ideas, but I don't know what the hell they were thinking with Rian Johnson. He seems such a mismatch. Rogue One nailed it, and whatever those guys did, they should do that again.

 

"They didn't give much thought to the fact that you can't really do that with a 40 year old franchise with a fanbase that has certain expectations."

 

I'd say the very best thing they could do is to take a hammer to those expectations and shatter them into millions of little pieces. In fact if it were me making VIII, I would have torn apart the OT much more than Johnson did.

 

But here is the great thing. Disney can do both, and thus far have. They can give us movies for someone like you (and many other fans) who don't want what I just said. They can also give people like me what I want. You don't have to like or love every movie they release.

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There's a way to do both.

 

I agree being precious with th OT wasn't necessary, and hiring young indie filmmakers is super smart. Like I said, you can give somebody a handful of plot points to hit, have an ageed upon theme, and still let them have a ton of freedom to explore thier vision.

 

It didn't have to be one extreme or the other.

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There's a way to do both.

 

I agree being precious with th OT wasn't necessary, and hiring young indie filmmakers is super smart. Like I said, you can give somebody a handful of plot points to hit, have an ageed upon theme, and still let them have a ton of freedom to explore thier vision.

 

It didn't have to be one extreme or the other.

But we really have no idea how much or how little planning or collaboration there is. I mean we know for a fact that Johnson asked JJ to change which droid went with Rey. I get that's a small point but it did lead to an important scene in TLJ. I'm also 99% sure I read Rian say he had given serious thought to having Snoke's guards be the Knights of Ren and was asked not to, because there were other ideas for them in IX.

 

I also know I read where Daisy was asked about Rey being a "nobody" and on set of TFA Abrams told her basically exactly what it ended up being.

 

We know Lucasfilm will fire directors and writers who aren't giving them what they want. Now whether that is just flat out quality of the movie in their eyes or maybe someone not giving them what they want plot wise, we don't know exactly. However it is obvious if you arent giving them what they want, they will get rid of you. Through five movies Johnson is the only one to make it all the way through the process.

 

And Im not saying I;d be against some grand plan if they wanted to do that. I really don't care what their process is. All I care is that I like what I see as a finished product. Which I have with all 4 movies Disney has released.

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Yeah, he's not going away. His movie made over a billion dollars. Not as huge as TFA, but it also didn't have the cultural impact, because it wasn't the first new Star Wars in a decade. His trilogy is going to happen. Unless I hear great things, Star Wars movies are the same as solo MCU films. I'll probably get around to watching them, but I'm not paying for it. It'll either be streaming or watching it with someone who bought it. The exceptions will be big group events or, if for some weird reason, my wife wants to see it.

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Really the only thing that was set up by JJ that Rian didnt pick up on that somewhat disappointed me was the Knights of Ren. The other things people thought he set up I never really believed he was setting up anyway. I thought Snoke was simply there for Kylo to kill and usurp, I said it maybe the day I first saw TFA. JJ put Luke on that island and gave us the explanation from Han that a student turned on him, Luke blamed himself and left. Those who knew him best (which means Han) thought he went looking for the first Jedi Temple. That's what we are told in TFA, thats exactly what we got in TLJ. The fact is that if there was some "good" reason for Luke's exile, like say he has a secret new Jedi school on the island, that would be going against what we heard in TFA.

 

As I've said here and elsewhere I wish TLJ had torn apart what we knew about Star Wars even more than it did. Hell even alot more. We get a thing about Luke saying the Jedi had to end and he gives us essentially a quick recap of the PT. I wish he had given us specific things about the Jedi teaching and way of life that he diagreed with. Wish he woulda torn the Jedi a new asshole. I wish he woulda questioned whether his father could be redeemed or even deserved to be redeemed. I like that we didn't get to really see the three of them together and happy (much to Mark Hammills consternaton) because to me if we got that it would just have lessened the tragic events that led to this trilogy.

 

I don't need to see Han, Luke and Leia happy together again because if I want to see that I'll pop in Star Wars and watch them running around the Death Star or Jedi and watch them on the barge.

 

For years I heard Star Wars fans claim to want a dark movie. But I think they want like a surface darkness, just like a somewhat somber mood, scenes shot darker. That kinda thing. What happens to Luke between the trilogies, that's actual darkness. That;s a great person whose life is totally ruined and destroyed and there really is no happy ending.

 

Also, I'd like to say its cool to be able to talk about this without people getting angry. Its just a movie. If someone likes it and another doesn't, who cares.

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I'm with you on a lot of that, especially Snoke. He was never meant to be anymore than exactly what he was. While I am curious to know who he is/where he came from, I don't need it.

I agree, I'd be fine if its addressed in IX or if it had been in TLJ I'm fine without it. In fact I'd prefer to see how he first came into contact with Kylo rather than where he came from.

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Really the only thing that was set up by JJ that Rian didnt pick up on that somewhat disappointed me was the Knights of Ren. The other things people thought he set up I never really believed he was setting up anyway. I thought Snoke was simply there for Kylo to kill and usurp, I said it maybe the day I first saw TFA. JJ put Luke on that island and gave us the explanation from Han that a student turned on him, Luke blamed himself and left. Those who knew him best (which means Han) thought he went looking for the first Jedi Temple. That's what we are told in TFA, thats exactly what we got in TLJ. The fact is that if there was some "good" reason for Luke's exile, like say he has a secret new Jedi school on the island, that would be going against what we heard in TFA.

 

As I've said here and elsewhere I wish TLJ had torn apart what we knew about Star Wars even more than it did. Hell even alot more. We get a thing about Luke saying the Jedi had to end and he gives us essentially a quick recap of the PT. I wish he had given us specific things about the Jedi teaching and way of life that he diagreed with. Wish he woulda torn the Jedi a new ***hole. I wish he woulda questioned whether his father could be redeemed or even deserved to be redeemed. I like that we didn't get to really see the three of them together and happy (much to Mark Hammills consternaton) because to me if we got that it would just have lessened the tragic events that led to this trilogy.

 

I don't need to see Han, Luke and Leia happy together again because if I want to see that I'll pop in Star Wars and watch them running around the Death Star or Jedi and watch them on the barge.

 

For years I heard Star Wars fans claim to want a dark movie. But I think they want like a surface darkness, just like a somewhat somber mood, scenes shot darker. That kinda thing. What happens to Luke between the trilogies, that's actual darkness. That;s a great person whose life is totally ruined and destroyed and there really is no happy ending.

 

Also, I'd like to say its cool to be able to talk about this without people getting angry. Its just a movie. If someone likes it and another doesn't, who cares.

I'm fine with all of that. I just wanted some consistency or flow with the two films. I know you think there was, but I think it could have been better.

 

As for a dark star wars, I would love that.

 

Part of what bugs me about the new trilogy is that the New Order is the power structure. It still doesn't jive with Jedi... I was thinking the other day it would've been interesting if the Republic had been re established after ROTJ, and was the current power base. But the New Order is an uprising of sectarian "terrorists" (for lack of a better word) violently uprising taking system after system led by the knights of ren. the republic cant quash them no matter what they try, and keep losing territories to the New Order. A collapse looks eminent. In my head that tracks better with the end of the OT and could be different enough to not be a PT or OT rehash. But, hindsight i guess

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Yeah, he's not going away. His movie made over a billion dollars. Not as huge as TFA, but it also didn't have the cultural impact, because it wasn't the first new Star Wars in a decade. His trilogy is going to happen. Unless I hear great things, Star Wars movies are the same as solo MCU films. I'll probably get around to watching them, but I'm not paying for it. It'll either be streaming or watching it with someone who bought it. The exceptions will be big group events or, if for some weird reason, my wife wants to see it.

I have similar problems with TLJ that others have listed above, but despite those problems it's a well made movie with a lot of good stuff in it. My big issue was with how I kept getting pulled out of the movie-watching experience by how aware I was of RJ sticking his tongue out at fan theories/ fanboys/Star Wars history/ TFA/whatever. I don't so much care that he was dismissing those things, but that I was so aware of it and it that I lost the ability to be immersed in it.

 

That said, give him his own trilogy with his own characters, his own history to make and I think it could be fantastic. I don't dislike RJ, I just dislike what he did to this current trilogy.

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My biggest issue was just that I wasn't entertained. Like you, I was constantly pulled out of the movie, and I also kept checking my watch to see how long until I could go home.

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Ya know before the ST I kinda woulda agreed with Odine. I didn't want anything to sort of erase the ending of ROTJ. Over time I realized that not only did I not care but I was actually wrong. You see Star Wars works best when it's very simple. The bad guys are chasing the good guys, they are trying to kill the good guys, capture the good guys, steal something the good guys possess. The good guys are running away from the bad guys, hiding from bad guys, trying to prevent the bad guys from doing something terrible. The exact nature of those bad guys it doesn't matter at all. It doesn't matter where they came from, who they are, what their motivations are or how they rose to power.

 

They very easily could have started the ST with the New Republic in power and told the story of how the new bad guys took control. In fact before any of this happened thats what I would have envisioned. What JJ did was smart though. Make the bad guys completely dominant and powerful from the start, so the good guys are at the disadvantage from the beginning. Star Wars works best that way.

 

It goes back to something I read Kasdan say. In this kind of story it's best to start telling the story as late in the game and as close to the climax as possible where the story still makes sense. Who Snoke is, how the First Order gained prominence, how he corrupted Kylo. That is all part of the story but by skipping that and getting to where TFA starts we almost certainly got better movies.

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Being overly simplistic may have worked in the past, but audiences have grown a lot. Film and TV has evolved. Audiences are capable of engaging in things that are way more complex and have more subtext than what we were given

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Being overly simplistic may have worked in the past, but audiences have grown a lot. Film and TV has evolved. Audiences are capable of engaging in things that are way more complex and have more subtext than what we were given

I don't agree with this. You have because you are older than you were when you first saw the OT, the kid who is the same age as you were when you saw the OT has not evolved and that kid is who really matters here.

 

You are trying to make Star Wars something it never was to fit who you are now, rather than what it's always been and for the most part should remain.

 

And ofcourse audiences are capable of engaging in things more complex than Star Wars. That was true in 1977 just as it is today. And just like in 1977 there are many entertainment choices for someone who wants something more complex than Star Wars. That doesn't mean Star Wars should become one of those things.

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No, what Im saying is that if someone wants what you are saying there are plenty of choices where it is present. If you want to go to the movies for 2 hours or so, see lightsabers and blasters and big foots who can fly ships and little green muppets who are the wisest beings in the galaxy then go see Star Wars.

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I feel like what you are saying is this: When I was a kid I loved ketchup on my steak. Now I like steak sauce on it. However I have a loyalty to ketchup so I still want to use ketchup on my steak so can you please change ketchup to make it more like steak sauce? Just use steak sauce.

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