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The basic thing that got guys over


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I think Henry got over enough on his own. We should all take a moment and give him a hand.

You'd better extend that moment to a pregnant pause.

Sounds good to me   El Gigante/ Giant Gonzales: clothing

I'll never get the Shawn Michaels thing. He was an awesome performer, but the fact that he wasn't a draw whilst being such a cancer backstage makes you wonder why he ever got the push he did. He was either in the right place at the right time or there was something else going on that we don't know about.

 

I understand why guys don't want to do jobs, especially smaller guys, because once they do they tend to fade away. Piper refused to job to Hogan, but Dibiase, Perferct, and Rude were content to do so and ultimately became mid card acts as a result (special props going out to Rude who had a great post WWF run with WCW).

 

Michaels took it to a different level, though. I commend him for being able to get away with it, but I would've preferred that any of the guys I mentioned above gotten his spot. Maybe I just wasn't a fan of his, personally or professionally, and my opinions are swayed by that.

 

But in the theme of this thread that some crazy person started:

 

Shawn Michaels: Pat Patterson

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I'll never get the Shawn Michaels thing. He was an awesome performer, but the fact that he wasn't a draw whilst being such a cancer backstage makes you wonder why he ever got the push he did. He was either in the right place at the right time or there was something else going on that we don't know about.

 

Pretty simple.

 

1. He was a draw.

2. Anyone else who was a draw was on Ted Turner's payroll.

3. His contract was locked down.

 

Look, Vince had to be looking at the numbers. Moreso in the mid-90s than ever because the whole company was in trouble. They had house shows that headlined HBK and house shows that didn't. If Michaels wasn't making a difference, he simply wouldn't have gotten away with what he did. They would have handed the title to someone else, kept him as a heel where he was a much more natural fit at the time, and saved themselves the headache. But, for a company that couldn't match the checkbook of Ted Turner, Michaels was gold and there was no one else that could have picked up his slack.

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Give me the numbers.

 

Burden's on you I'm afraid. You're the one who declared it a fact that Michaels wasn't a draw in the first place.

 

I can only go by what makes sense. Either Michaels was worth the trouble (i.e. was making the company more money than a malleable replacement) or Vince enjoyed the headache. The only other explanation is Vince's tastes, but I think we'll all agree that Michaels does not fit with the parade of big guys that Vince was trying to plug in as a replacement for Hogan throughout the mid-90s.

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The Dolph Ziggler money in the bank cash in to save Nikki memes are already all over the place. Funny how Cena is being set up to be the villain in this whole thing. As if she didn't know how he was before she got serious with him.

 

(special props going out to Rude who had a great post WWF run with WCW).

The only man to appear on Raw and Nitro on the same Monday night.

 

Mickie James: psycho superfan Trish worshipper (their Wrestlemania match even had the unintentional Roman Reigns effect-the majority of fans were cheering her and booing Trish)

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The Dolph Ziggler money in the bank cash in to save Nikki memes are already all over the place. Funny how Cena is being set up to be the villain in this whole thing. As if she didn't know how he was before she got serious with him.

I'm currently going through a breakup myself for what appear to be very similar reasons. She wants marriage and I don't. Kidding aside I feel bad for Cena, cause I know what it's like to delude yourself into thinking there's something there when there really isn't. It's gotta be 1000 times worse when you're in the public eye.

 

So yeah, I don't think Cena is the heel here. She probably isn't either. Breakups just suck for all parties involved.

 

Macho Grande: William Shatner

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Give me the numbers.

 

Burden's on you I'm afraid. You're the one who declared it a fact that Michaels wasn't a draw in the first place.

 

Apparently this has been a hot topic among wrestling circles for years now. I found this data on another site:

 

Royal Rumble PPV buyrates:

(1.10) - Bret Hart vs. Taker- RR 96

(1.00) - Diesel vs. Bret Hart- RR 95

(0.90) - Yokozuna vs. Taker- RR 94

(0.70) - HBK vs. Sid - RR 97

 

WrestleMania PPV buyrates:

(1.68 grossing $5.2 million) - Bret Hart vs. Yokozuna- WM 94

(1.40 grossing $5.1 million) - Diesel vs. HBK- WM 95

(1.20 grossing $4.0 million) - HBK vs. Bret Hart - WM 96

(0.77 grossing $2.5 million) - Taker vs. Sid - WM 97

 

King of the Ring PPV buyrates:

(0.85) - Piper vs. Lawler - KOTR 94

(0.65 ) - Diesel/Bigelow vs. Sid/Tatanka - KOTR 95

(0.60) - HBK vs. Bulldog - KOTR 96

(0.50) - Taker vs. Farooq - KOTR 97

SummerSlam PPV buyrates:

(1.30) - Taker vs. Taker - SS 94

(0.90) - Diesel vs. Mabel - SS 95

(0.80) - Bret Hart vs. Taker - SS 97

(0.58) - HBK vs. Vader - SS 96

Survivor Series PPV buyrate:

(0.90) - Taker vs. Yokozuna - SS 94

(0.89) - Bret Hart vs. HBK - SS 97

(0.58) - HBK vs. Sid - SS 96

(0.57) - Diesel vs. Bret Hart - SS 95

 

In Your House PPV buyrates:

(0.83) - Diesel vs. Sid - IYH 1 [14 May 95]

(0.75) - Diesel vs. Bret Hart - IYH 6 [18 Feb 96]

(0.70) - Diesel vs. Sid - IYH 2 [23 July 95]

(0.70) - Diesel/HBK vs. Yokozuna/Bulldog - IYH 3 [24 Sept 95]

(0.65) - Diesel vs. HBK - IYH 7 [28 April 96]

(0.60) - HBK vs. Taker - IYH 18 [5 Oct 97]

(0.59) - Hart Foundation vs. Team USA - IYH 16 [6 July 97]

(0.57) - Austin vs. Taker - IYH 15 [11 May 97]

(0.50) - Bret Hart vs Taker vs Austin vs Vader - IYH 13 [16 Feb 97]

(0.50) - Bret Hart vs. Austin - IYH 14 [20 April 97]

(0.48) - HBK vs. Mankind - IYH 10 [22 Sept 96]

(0.45) - HBK vs. Bulldog - IYH 8 [26 & 28 May 96]

(0.45) - HBK vs. Taker - IYH 17 [7 Sept 97]

(0.44) - HBK vs. Shamrock - IYH 19 [7Dec 97]

(0.40) - Diesel vs. Bulldog - IYH 4 [22 Oct 95]

(0.40) - Taker vs. Mankind - IYH 11 [20 Oct 96]

(0.37) - Vader/Owen/Bulldog vs. HBK/AJ/Sid - IYH 9 [21 July 96]

(0.35) - Bret Hart vs. Sid - IYH 12 [15 Dec 96]

(0.33) - Bret Hart vs. Bulldog - IYH 5 [17 Dec 95]

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I'd love to compare those with Hogan numbers. Although I was never a fan, and have a lot of contempt for him, there can be no doubt that was the golden goose of wrestling.

 

It does appear that HBK had a hard time putting butts in the seats. Sadly enough common fans would rather watch big men who can't work, which is weird because if that really draws all you have to do is look out your window.

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It does appear that HBK had a hard time putting butts in the seats.

 

Actually, he holds up just fine when you compare things within the same timeframe. Which is only fair considering this is when WCW was at its peak and monthly PPVs had just watered-down the buy-rates from the formerly quarterly offerings. Only Diesel is clearly better and HBK's pretty much on par with Undertaker for 2nd. He's also a cut above Brett Hart.

 

It was Sid and, oddly enough, Davey Boy Smith who seem to be the consistent drags.

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Well yeah, Sid and Davey sucked. I'm assuming you've seen them, and if you have you know why. Steroids can build muscles, but they can't build charisma or talent.

 

It was a slump, business wise, in mid 90s WWE/WWF and maybe I'm too hard on HBK because I'm not sure if anyone could've done better. All I know is that he wasn't a top draw and his legacy will forever be intertwined with Bret Hart as intermediate champions. There was a Hogan era and an Austin era. Lotta big names in the mix, but no one who could hold the torch during that rough patch. WCW had a good run, but they were hotshotting it and I'm pretty sure I could get monkeygirl over for a week or two if I tried hard enough.

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Well yeah, Sid and Davey sucked. I'm assuming you've seen them, and if you have you know why. Steroids can build muscles, but they can't build charisma or talent.

 

It was a slump, business wise, in mid 90s WWE/WWF and maybe I'm too hard on HBK because I'm not sure if anyone could've done better. All I know is that he wasn't a top draw and his legacy will forever be intertwined with Bret Hart as intermediate champions. There was a Hogan era and an Austin era. Lotta big names in the mix, but no one who could hold the torch during that rough patch. WCW had a good run, but they were hotshotting it and I'm pretty sure I could get monkeygirl over for a week or two if I tried hard enough.

I agree, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you. He's not Andre, Hogan, Austin, Rock. He's just not. I don't think anyone suggested he was. There was no HBK era. Plus he worked best as a heel anyway. He was at his best once dX formed. From his feud with Taker that had him face him at the Sept IYH and then in the first Hell in a Cell, through the Screwjob, then another match with Taker at Rumble and ofcourse his final match against Austin at Mania. That was Shawn at his best. He had the ability to get cheered because what he was doing was legit great and funny and then when it came time to get the boos because he was actually fueding with a face he'd just easily turn the boos to cheers.

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You are totally wrong. The guy was great on the mic. Not in a catch phrasey kinda way though. I remember some of his interviews so well and they just all worked. His work in his run up to his loss to Austin was just masterful. Starting in the Fall of that year when Hart had the belt and Shawn was still given the main event slots in the Sept and October PPVs over Brett. HHH yelling out "who is the ICON, who is the showstopper, who is the main event" and HBK yelling back "Me, Me Me". It just signified that HBK was the top guy eventhough Brett had the belt. Shawn had a legitimacy to him at that point.

 

WCW was full of older, past their prime guys and Brett eventually joined them. Shawn telling him on RAW to go join all those dinosaurs down South. Shawn at that point gave WCW a feel of "they have all these old guys who you remember from your childhood" whereas Shawn could wrestle 5 star matches and still bring it on the mic. Plus he was cool and edgy. That's what got the nWo over but by this point even that had gone stale and there were so many mistakes made with them. Shawn on the other hand WWF had realized how to take advantage of his past assholeness by putting him out there as a wildcard who was against the establishment. During their feud Shawn was just as anti establishment as Austin was.

 

By the time their match came the WWF had been able to position Shawn as the best performer in the business. Whether it was true or not doesnt matter. They had built a story of "WCW has old men, we have a dynamic young guy." Then Austin beat him and took off from there. Austin was already the most over guy since Hogan but beating someone who was positioned like Shawn certainly helped.

 

The "Attitude Era" officially started when Austin beat HBK. Although I'd say it was really already on it's way during the previous year. Austin is obviously the Jesus of the Attitude Era, but Shawn was John the Baptist. His antics, from sticking the Canadian flag up his nose, to doing an in ring interview with JR in overtight bicycle shorts stuffed with socks, to his mockery of Slaughter presaged the Attitude Era. It couldn't have happened without Shawn Michaels.

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100% agree on everything choc said about HBK.

 

To me, though, the attitude era started in Montreal. Everything that was what people call attitude can pull its beginnings from there. As time goes on, Im more and more in the camp that calls the whole thing a work, even though I know thats the wrestling version of 9/11 was an inside job, jet fuel cant melt steal beams. Its not realistic but it makes so much goddamn sense. Bret Hart is a douche bag.

 

Hi sorry its my birthday and Im ****ing hammered.

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Well yeah, Sid and Davey sucked. I'm assuming you've seen them, and if you have you know why. Steroids can build muscles, but they can't build charisma or talent.

 

Davey Boy Smith was one of the more talented guys on the roster at the time and has plenty of gems to his credit. Heck, he's still a part of the consensus greatest SummerSlam match ever and a legit contender for the greatest match of Bret Hart's career. And he did it after weeks of smoking crack, pumped up on steroids that made him less mobile than he'd been just a couple years earlier and simultaneously not in shape, dodging Bret's attempts to plot out the match, and promptly forgetting what little planning Bret had managed as soon as the match started.

 

Yeah, it was Bret Hart's personal masterpiece as a wrestler that he called an all-time great match on the fly with a guy who so clearly wasn't prepared to work that night, but Davey obviously had incredible skills for Bret to pull out of him to put on a match like that while in such rubbish condition.

 

And not long afterwards, he got fired for the steroids. It's safe to say that steroids and drug use were what held Smith back. Not what put him as high on the card as he was.

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The consensus among people who knew them say this was a great match because Bret wanted to make his brother-in-law look good. Hart did all the work and it's a testament to his abilities that he got that out of Smith. Had it been anyone else it wouldn't have been anywhere near that. Hard to give Smith credit when it was a family member who was at his peak and wanted to help him look good.

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You are totally wrong. The guy was great on the mic. Not in a catch phrasey kinda way though. I remember some of his interviews so well and they just all worked. His work in his run up to his loss to Austin was just masterful. Starting in the Fall of that year when Hart had the belt and Shawn was still given the main event slots in the Sept and October PPVs over Brett. HHH yelling out "who is the ICON, who is the showstopper, who is the main event" and HBK yelling back "Me, Me Me". It just signified that HBK was the top guy eventhough Brett had the belt. Shawn had a legitimacy to him at that point.

 

WCW was full of older, past their prime guys and Brett eventually joined them. Shawn telling him on RAW to go join all those dinosaurs down South. Shawn at that point gave WCW a feel of "they have all these old guys who you remember from your childhood" whereas Shawn could wrestle 5 star matches and still bring it on the mic. Plus he was cool and edgy. That's what got the nWo over but by this point even that had gone stale and there were so many mistakes made with them. Shawn on the other hand WWF had realized how to take advantage of his past assholeness by putting him out there as a wildcard who was against the establishment. During their feud Shawn was just as anti establishment as Austin was.

 

By the time their match came the WWF had been able to position Shawn as the best performer in the business. Whether it was true or not doesnt matter. They had built a story of "WCW has old men, we have a dynamic young guy." Then Austin beat him and took off from there. Austin was already the most over guy since Hogan but beating someone who was positioned like Shawn certainly helped.

 

The "Attitude Era" officially started when Austin beat HBK. Although I'd say it was really already on it's way during the previous year. Austin is obviously the Jesus of the Attitude Era, but Shawn was John the Baptist. His antics, from sticking the Canadian flag up his nose, to doing an in ring interview with JR in overtight bicycle shorts stuffed with socks, to his mockery of Slaughter presaged the Attitude Era. It couldn't have happened without Shawn Michaels.

 

I won’t lie, a couiple of my favorite matches of all time came from HBK when he came back toward the end of the attitude era. I think he’s a born-again asshat, but he was one of the best performers, workers, personalities they’ve ever had.

 

HBK vs Jericho at WM19 is one of my top 5 matches of all time.

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The consensus among people who knew them say this was a great match because Bret wanted to make his brother-in-law look good. Hart did all the work and it's a testament to his abilities that he got that out of Smith. Had it been anyone else it wouldn't have been anywhere near that. Hard to give Smith credit when it was a family member who was at his peak and wanted to help him look good.

I pretty much said the same thing. Bret's the match's MVP, no doubt. One can quibble whether his matches with Austin or Owen were better, but in both cases the credit is spread out a lot more evenly. This was Hart's greatest individual performance. If Smith had been in the ring with someone who hadn't put in the legwork or who didn't really care, it would have been a clunker.

 

That said Sid or Luger or Mabel couldn't have a match like that pulled out them on a good day. That level of technical wrestling skill can't be developed on the fly no matter how much the Hitman wills it. Watch it again, it's not smoke and mirrors or good booking. It's not Angle vs. Benoit, but it is a match that would be perfectly at home closing out a PPV today with plenty of reversals and intricate spots.

 

Really, Davey Boy Smith had the tools to make himself right at home in the mid-90s WWF. He was a good balance of the skills needed to keep up with Hart and HBK and the body type to make Vince want to put him there. He could easily have been, at minimum, a perennial player near the top of the card, especially as the roster cleared out. Someone they could trust to plug in and push out a solid match. He just personally blew it.

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I think he’s a born-again asshat

 

C'mon man. The guy was absolutely miserable and dedicated to making everyone else around him miserable as well before he found his faith. There's a more than fair chance he'd be dead by now if it hadn't changed him. Instead, by all appearances, he seems happy with his family and content with the legacy he built after his return. I'm not aware of him dropping any "God hates ***s" interviews or anything like that in the name of his faith either.

 

Can't you give Christianity the W on this one?

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