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Snoke prequel


43 replies to this topic

#26
Odine

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Up in Snoke also sounds like a SW fetish porno movie.

Edited by Odine, 13 March 2018 - 03:49 PM.


#27
Tank

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Tank, would that one line have made the movie better? Would you have left the theater more entertained somehow? I doubt it. 
 
As for planning it out all at once, I don't agree with that either. If the OT had been planned out all at once then Vader isn't Luke's father. Would that have been better? I certainly don't think so.
 
I still just don't get this whole idea that TLJ somehow didn't build on what TFA did. I almost feel like I watched a different TFA than you guys or at least understood it in a totally different way. TLJ did most things in very much the exact way I though it should building on TFA. 
 
And listen I'm not saying I would disliked a line or two on Snoke. I just don't think it would have added anything really. Would have just been neutral. I just think overall people want too much explained. People wanted how the saber got to Maz explained, they wanted the map explained. I get Snoke's backstory is potentially more important than those things but we don't need it. Is there a story behind Snoke? Ofcourse there has to be. That's not the story being told here though.


Would it have been more entertaining? Who knows— but I wouldn’t have had a dangling question. That’s a huge pet peeve of mine (and JJ is one of the most criminal filmmakers when it comes to doing it), the unanswered plot jumps or gaps. I’m not saying we need a deep cut into Snoke’s story, but when you’re working within some well-known and established timelines and other movies, it raises some big flags and questions. That’s why I am saying a one-off line services the question, but doesn’t stop the main story.

As for the planning— Lucas changed and altered ideas plenty, but the spine of the story was always there. If you look at any of the early drafts of SW you can see the DNA. Even ROTJ which basically compacted the original ST movies to some extent into one, was still following a basic thrust.

Even as ideas are developed and they evolve, you can still stay close to a basic narrative thrust. Despite all the evolution the original OT filsm went through, the core conceit and hero’s journey was there. The ST doesn’t seem to have an over-arching structure— and ironically, they have the brain trust developing these ideas, which means they should be running it like a TV writer’s room which exists ti plot out longer form stories.

And I agree TLJ built from TFA in many ways— arguably to the most important in Campbellian terms, but it failed in that JJ left too many danglers for Rian to address and also tell his own stories. Those sort of things wouldn’t happen with a bit of planning. The OT in comparison left very little dangling— basically just Vader escaping in ANH and Han being frozen in ESB. With only one dangling plot point, and a over-arching spine, you have a much cleaner jumping off point.
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#28
The Choc

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I just dont think these "danglers" were left to be resolved. I think JJ breezed by them to make a fast paced movie and not dwell on those things. In fact Im 99% sure I saw JJ say that he was worried about explaining the map and the saber and stuff like that and it was Kasdan who told him to not worry about that stuff.

 

The one line thing I just disagree with, it feels like dipping your toe in the pool. Either Snoke's backstory is considered important or it's not considered important. If it's important then do it right, add an extra flashback scene and really do it justice. If it's not important then its not important and who cares. 

 

I wouldn't have been against seeing alot of Snoke's backstory, that's not what Im saying. If they had made that choice then I'd have been fine with that. Obviously when you look at the ST and its backstory there is potentially alot there. The whole 30 years from ROTJ to TFA basically. They have to pick and choose exactly which part of the story to tell. Could they have decided to include Snoke's backstory in what they are telling? Ofcourse they could have. Thus far they have decided not to tell that part of it, and that is more than fine with me. In the part of the story they are choosing to tell, Snoke's backstory doesn't have alot of relevance. 


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#29
Tank

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I just dont think these "danglers" were left to be resolved. I think JJ breezed by them to make a fast paced movie and not dwell on those things. In fact Im 99% sure I saw JJ say that he was worried about explaining the map and the saber and stuff like that and it was Kasdan who told him to not worry about that stuff.


He absolutely didn’t give a damn. That’s what I am saying is a problem with JJ. That’s ultimately one of the major reasons I hated Lost. Plain and simple, he wanted his own Emperor, so they threw Snoke out. I don’t like that he does this— and the fact that it’s the first film in a trilogy makes it lazy if not irresponsible.

This is why I’ve said in some ways that TLJ has made TFA work less well for me. You can’t just let these things hang. Rian had his own story to tell about Luke— but he had to service these other things— or literally just kill them off.
 

The one line thing I just disagree with, it feels like dipping your toe in the pool. Either Snoke's backstory is considered important or it's not considered important. If it's important then do it right, add an extra flashback scene and really do it justice. If it's not important then its not important and who cares. 


How would itbe any different from Obi-Wan telling Luke about the Clone Wars? Or Han giving a quick backstory on who Lando is? Neither of these are truly needed in the story, but are added for flavor and backstory set-up. Every movie is full of drops like this. Think of any James Bond movie, somewhere in there there’s a couple lines on the villain’s origin. “He’s SPECTRE lead scientiest who has gone rogue... he’s a former KGB agent who’s stolen a nuke and blah blah blah.”

Every movie does it.
 

I wouldn't have been against seeing alot of Snoke's backstory, that's not what Im saying. If they had made that choice then I'd have been fine with that. Obviously when you look at the ST and its backstory there is potentially alot there. The whole 30 years from ROTJ to TFA basically. They have to pick and choose exactly which part of the story to tell. Could they have decided to include Snoke's backstory in what they are telling? Ofcourse they could have. Thus far they have decided not to tell that part of it, and that is more than fine with me. In the part of the story they are choosing to tell, Snoke's backstory doesn't have alot of relevance.


In TFA I was fine with that— but after TLJ he’s desd. Now there is no real reason to ever mention him again, which leaves us forever wondering (untilt he stupid EU book comes out). Maybe if we get the Knights of Ren in the next movie (we better) they could address it there, but with JJ back behind the wheel I’m not counting on it. There could have been an explanation in either movie that didn’t make the edit too— either way, if you’re making a sequel and you do something that makes no sense given the established past, that’s bad writing.
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#30
The Choc

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Im not saying Snoke is the strength of the movies so far, in fact he is a weakness. He was boring and generic in TFA and he is somewhat the same in TLJ. I guess my point is that giving a line or two about his part won't change the fact that he is a weakness. JJ created a generic Emperor stand in, Johnson gave him a purpose in terms of Kylo killing him to surpass him and become Supreme Leader himself. 

 

As for Obi Wan telling Luke the Clone Wars, I think that is something pertinent to Luke there. Ben is trying to motivate Luke to join him and become a Jedi. Not much better way than to say "hey your Dad was a great Jedi, this jerk Vader killed him, wanna go with me to fight this jerk Vader?". Its a bit different than Rey who really is only interested in what happened to Kylo and it makes sense that Luke would 1-lie about and then 2-make it seem like totally his own fault because he blames himself. I mean if Rey asks "what happened" and then Luke blames Snoke it kinda takes away from Luke's sense of blame. 



#31
Tank

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I'd argue that given their connection, Rey knowing Kylo Ben's story, and potentially what made him god dark, is no different, and just as important, as Obi-Wan telling Luke about Anakin's death and the Clone Wars.

Snoke's relevance is definitely part of the problem-- but giving a little backstory would help alleviate that and most definitely make his place in the story less weak. Whether you like him or not as part of the method is irrelevant. As the one who apparently swayed Kylo to the dark side knowing where he came from could be very important if played right.

LEaving plot points dangling is bad. I personallly think Snoke was never needed really. Kylo could have easily just forged his own path and joined the first order. But that's not what happened-- they gave him a Master in an era where none was available-- that requires an explanation after everything established in the OT.

IF that's not your story, fine-- but give me something.

#32
The Choc

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But did Snoke sway Kylo to the darkside? Luke doesn't seem to think so. He says something like "Leia blamed Snoke but it was my fault". Now that's from Luke's perspective and he blames himself. The truth of that is far more interesting to me than where Snoke came from. But again we can't expect Luke, who has exiled himself because he blames himself, to give us the full story. In his mind it was his own fault and this is what he tells Rey. You can't expect Luke to give us both sides of that tale, not at that point at least. There is a movie left and Luke could and I'd argue will be a ghost in it and he could still give Rey more backstory on Kylo's fall. Now that he's seemingly admitted his failings and accepted it perhaps he can give Rey a more full telling of Kylo's fall than we've gotten thus far. 



#33
El Chalupacabra

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I really wish that Disney wasn't trying to push out the Episode films every two years.  I get why they are, but I have to imagine that they could have tightened up so many of the problems with TLJ with more time.

The other mistake I think they made with the Episodes is not just having JJ (or someone else) do all 3 films for consistencies sake.  Why they didn't just have JJ handle directing and producing the Episodes and have Kasden write them is beyond me.  
 
I wonder if Disney would still have given TLJ to Rian Johnson, if they knew beforehand he would trash everything that the OT and JJ Abrams set up in TFA.  Hopefully, Disney has learned something, here.

Again Disney has nothing to do with it. They write checks to Lucasfilm, and make their profit. All hiring, firing, and creative direction ultimately lands on Kath;een Kennedy.

Nothing in TLJ was a suprise to anyone in Lucasfilm. While these movies are being pumped out, there is constant communication between everyone involved. No one involved in making a movie is surprised by anything in it, not even when they read the script. Rian would have pitched his ideas in his first meeting, and everyone involved would have been part of the development of the script and seen drafts. JJ had read TLJ before TFA had even come out he commented on how much he liked it.

I do agree that they should have planned all three movies for consistancy, but if KK had any true issues with TLJ she had plenty of time to change it. Even with a tight schedule. Fords injury on the TFA set stalled them out enough that a pretty heavy rewrite was done. R1 had extensive reshoots, Solo swapped directors if at any time Lucasfilm or Disney took issue with what TLJ was shaping up to be they could have changed it.

 

When you put it that way, then I am left with less confidence in Kennedy, and perhaps criticism directed at her (at least when it comes to creative control) may have some merritt after all.  I do not mean to say she is unqualified.  Clearly she is.  But perhaps the recent calls to have Filoni be the one put in charge of creative control, while Kennedy focuses more on the "business end" (production and promotion side, as well as the hiring), wouldn't be such a bad idea.  



#34
The Choc

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Filoni in control of all of Lucasfilm would be terrible. 


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#35
El Chalupacabra

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Not all of Lucasfilm.  I am talking about the creative side.  And I have to disagree with you.   I think some of the stuff in TLJ could have been fixed if someone like Filoni had been in charge of the creative side.  



#36
Odine

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But did Snoke sway Kylo to the darkside? Luke doesn't seem to think so. He says something like "Leia blamed Snoke but it was my fault". Now that's from Luke's perspective and he blames himself. The truth of that is far more interesting to me than where Snoke came from. But again we can't expect Luke, who has exiled himself because he blames himself, to give us the full story. In his mind it was his own fault and this is what he tells Rey. You can't expect Luke to give us both sides of that tale, not at that point at least. There is a movie left and Luke could and I'd argue will be a ghost in it and he could still give Rey more backstory on Kylo's fall. Now that he's seemingly admitted his failings and accepted it perhaps he can give Rey a more full telling of Kylo's fall than we've gotten thus far. 

I don't think Snoke swayed Kylo. I think he actively sought Snoke out because he wanted a master that could give him real power. And I think the films thus far have been pretty clear in alluding to that. Kylo Ben was not manipulated or tricked into the dark.

As for all this backstory business. A little would've gone a long way. Maybe a line or two, or some force based flashbacks to Kylo and the Rens in an old tomb unearthing Snoke or something. There are so many things they could have done to flesh Snoke out more. And in an interesting visual manner.

Edited by Odine, 14 March 2018 - 05:52 AM.

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#37
El Chalupacabra

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Agreed Odine.  Kylo was a bad seed to begin with.   Han Solo even said as much and they tried to have Luke straighten him out, which of course, he failed to do.  Kylo was already dark.  He may have been pushed over the edge sooner with Snoke egging him on, but I think regardless if Snoke was there, Kylo would have turned evil eventually either way. 



#38
Odine

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I just had a thought. It might've been cool if we saw a flashback to Kylo finding an entombed Snoke, and Han (accompanied by Lando) has gone on a desperate chase to bring Ben back. (they somehow caught wind of his plan). Lando gets killed in the confrontation, Han, who is horrified and dejected, flees. Ben for whatever reason fails to kill Han who escapes but loses the falcon.

A somewhat long flashback maybe but it could've worked. Hindsight though...

Edited by Odine, 14 March 2018 - 05:53 AM.

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#39
Stallion

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Tank, would that one line have made the movie better? Would you have left the theater more entertained somehow? I doubt it. 
 
As for planning it out all at once, I don't agree with that either. If the OT had been planned out all at once then Vader isn't Luke's father. Would that have been better? I certainly don't think so.
 
I still just don't get this whole idea that TLJ somehow didn't build on what TFA did. I almost feel like I watched a different TFA than you guys or at least understood it in a totally different way. TLJ did most things in very much the exact way I though it should building on TFA. 
 
And listen I'm not saying I would disliked a line or two on Snoke. I just don't think it would have added anything really. Would have just been neutral. I just think overall people want too much explained. People wanted how the saber got to Maz explained, they wanted the map explained. I get Snoke's backstory is potentially more important than those things but we don't need it. Is there a story behind Snoke? Ofcourse there has to be. That's not the story being told here though.

For me it would have helped. It's one of my biggest issues with the film.

#40
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I just had a thought. It might've been cool if we saw a flashback to Kylo finding an entombed Snoke, and Han (accompanied by Lando) has gone on a desperate chase to bring Ben back. (they somehow caught wind of his plan). Lando gets killed in the confrontation, Han, who is horrified and dejected, flees. Ben for whatever reason fails to kill Han who escapes but loses the falcon.

A somewhat long flashback maybe but it could've worked. Hindsight though...


That would have been interesting.

#41
Ryn

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Snoke wasn't sufficiently compelling to me (only peripherally necessary to Kylo's arc) so I was quite satisfied with his portrayal.

#42
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Yes, making a standalone film to whitewash over poor storytelling would be a huge mistake. But since they don't seem to be following any actual plan for this trilogy (if they are I sure as **** can't see it) I assume Abrams is going to just bring him back in the next one. Clones are already established in Star Wars, just do that. Or since Snoke is seemingly so powerful just say that he was messing with Rey and Kylo's heads or something. Like, he was just "force projecting" (not sure how you would explain the body, or lack thereof, but who cares at this point) Otherwise this is will just go down as a bizarre, non-starter, waste-of-time character.

HAHAHAHA! It's like the ghost of Jar Jar and Lucas are in charge. If they make a movie about Snoke that would be like throwing money away or our new Christmas Special.

#43
El Chalupacabra

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Yes, making a standalone film to whitewash over poor storytelling would be a huge mistake. But since they don't seem to be following any actual plan for this trilogy (if they are I sure as **** can't see it) I assume Abrams is going to just bring him back in the next one. Clones are already established in Star Wars, just do that. Or since Snoke is seemingly so powerful just say that he was messing with Rey and Kylo's heads or something. Like, he was just "force projecting" (not sure how you would explain the body, or lack thereof, but who cares at this point) Otherwise this is will just go down as a bizarre, non-starter, waste-of-time character.

HAHAHAHA! It's like the ghost of Jar Jar and Lucas are in charge. If they make a movie about Snoke that would be like throwing money away or our new Christmas Special.

 

What is sad is that AT LEAST Lucas had an overall story he had mapped out.  You can debate how well the PT was executed or not, but he did have some idea where he was going.    With the ST, it got off to a great start with TFA, and introduced the characters and set the stage for further story telling, but the TLJ (while not a BAD movie) just lobbed a grenade into pretty much everything that came before, and I have no sense of them having a basic story outline fleshed out, or at least as well. When you compare and contrast the Emperor with Snoke, the OT just mentions the Emperor in ANH, we get a tease of a hologram in TESB, and actually meet the Emperor in ROTJ.  The PT lays out his rise to power and how he corrupted Anakin.  With the ST, we don't get any of that.  No back story, no info on how Snoke corrupts Kylo or maybe more properly helps to make him more corrupt. ANd Snoke has little screen time in TLJ.  I don't necessarily want a Snoke prequel movie, but if JJ Abrams at least just throws a bone and explains where Snoke came from and how he turned Kylo (I will NOT accept it was ALL Luke's fault causing Kylo to turn) in just some dialogue or flash back scenes in Episode 9, I can forgive a LOT. 



#44
jayce76

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He was never interesting enough too begin with, that I want a prequel of his character. Should of done him better in the trilogy he was in. Other than that, dont really care about a rip-off from Beowulf.  





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