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I have a "what if" for you since you think Snoke dying sucked. How would you have handled that? He's all powerful. If Rey defeats him when he can read her mind and sling her around like a rag doll, then she really would have been a Mary Sue. And he was hell bent on killing her. So ... What else was there that wasn't lame AF or a Deus ex Machina ass pull?

 

This was literally the only way you were going to defeat somebody this powerful, use his arrogance against him. That's it. That's your only hope.

Just to play devils advocate: youre using the constraints put on Snoke in this movie (that hes all-powerful) to justify the outcome.

 

A different script could have had Snoke be a little less powerful and found a different story to tell.

That's totally true. I would have gone a different way myself and made him less powerful. But people are complaining about the movie we have, not the movie we wish we had. They're not complaining about him being too powerful. They're complaining he went out like a chump. My point is, given the constraints placed before us, this was the only way I can see for him to be defeated and it not be contrived AF.

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Its funny that as the franchise has grown and my relationship to it has grown, Im getting to a place where I can be totally disappointed in a film (like the PT, maybe TLJ), but Ill accept what it has

Ever been to Utah? I kid.

I know I'm known as a Star Wars apologist around here, but you really didn't think that scene was Dramatic? Like, Snoke has been flinging Rey around the room, he's trying to convince Kylo to kill her,

What makes him so powerful? I mean he shows no power in TFA. In this movie he is so powerful because he is able to use the Force to move Rey around? Because he is able to cause a saber to hit Rey in the head? Because he says he is so powerful?

 

To me I don't think he is any more powerful than the Emperor or Yoda or whoever. It's like Rey in TFA when people were saying she got too powerful too fast. We have seen too much of the Force now, to just have her do what like did in IV would seem like nothing. They had to demonstrate her power more. Same thing applies here.

 

Either way I don't think essentially the ability to move Rey around using the Force makes him all poweful or anything. The real fact is this, the stuff from TFA that isn't explained like Snoke's origin or the map or how Maz got the saber were not left unexplained so they could be explained down the road. They were left unexplained because JJ and Kasdan didn't want TFA to get bogged down in explanation and exposition.

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How about the fact that he was the one who connected Rey and Ren through the force. Sure it's not cannon, but Serkis goes around during the press junkets talking about how powerful Snoke is suppose to be. If we're going to go by what we're shown as opposed to what we're told, we can toss half of what people believe Kylo Ren is out the window.

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Either way I don't think essentially the ability to move Rey around using the Force makes him all poweful or anything.

 

I think it was more the strike of lightning on Kylo - generally when we've seen that, the person behind it is pretty powerful in the Force. Also as Metropolis said, the connection between Kylo and Rey. That said, I agree that he isn't as powerful as he made out to be. I think probably on the same level as the Emperor, but definitely not Skywalker level.

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What Daark Wader said.

 

Also you gotta hand it to Rian Johnson. The nerve to kill off half the cast. It was a bold move, but Im with him on this one now. I like the idea. Gives JJ so much room to be creative in IX. I wouldnt have liked an Episode IX that was all rushed to tie up loose ends of different character`s stories. Admit it, thats where we were headed.

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I also don't see Kylo killing him as some kind of swerve or gotcha moment. It's what is set up and the logical next step for Kylo.

 

In TFA we see Kylo talking to Vader's helmet. He says he will finish what he started. Later we see Rey tell Kylo that he is afraid he will never become as powerful as Vader. This shows Kylo idolizes Vader but also wants to be as powerful and even surpass Vader, "finish what you started."

 

What is the one thing Vader more than once talked about wanting to accomplish but never did? He twice says he wants to overthrown the Emperor and rule the galaxy. He says it to Padme in ROTS and to Luke in ESB.

 

Kylo accomplishing this would be how he finishes what Vader started, how he becomes not only as powerful as Vader but surpasses him. He does the thing Vader wanted to do but was never able to.

 

It's not some shocking gotcha moment, its the logical step for Kylo Ren to take.

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What makes him so powerful? I mean he shows no power in TFA. In this movie he is so powerful because he is able to use the Force to move Rey around? Because he is able to cause a saber to hit Rey in the head? Because he says he is so powerful?

 

To me I don't think he is any more powerful than the Emperor or Yoda or whoever. It's like Rey in TFA when people were saying she got too powerful too fast. We have seen too much of the Force now, to just have her do what like did in IV would seem like nothing. They had to demonstrate her power more. Same thing applies here.

 

Either way I don't think essentially the ability to move Rey around using the Force makes him all poweful or anything. The real fact is this, the stuff from TFA that isn't explained like Snoke's origin or the map or how Maz got the saber were not left unexplained so they could be explained down the road. They were left unexplained because JJ and Kasdan didn't want TFA to get bogged down in explanation and exposition.

1) The effort to astral project for about ten minutes KILLED Luke Skywalker. Snoke connected two people via astral projection multiple times for minutes at a time. As Kylo says, doing that would have killed Rey.

 

2) Show me the clips where the Emperor flung around Jedi Force users (who could presumably resist via the Force) like they were rag dolls.

 

3) The Emperor could feel some of Luke's emotions and a few of his intentions. Snoke could read other Force users like books. Know their every intention. Kylo only beat him because Snoke over confidently assumed his intention was that Rey was the enemy he would strike down.

 

The point is real simple. If a man can read your mind and so knows you're gonna attack him, and if that man, thusly forewarned, can fling you around before you could ever reach him with your light saber ... How ... Do ... You ... Defeat ... Him? Kylo took the only option.

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What makes him so powerful? I mean he shows no power in TFA. In this movie he is so powerful because he is able to use the Force to move Rey around? Because he is able to cause a saber to hit Rey in the head? Because he says he is so powerful?

 

To me I don't think he is any more powerful than the Emperor or Yoda or whoever. It's like Rey in TFA when people were saying she got too powerful too fast. We have seen too much of the Force now, to just have her do what like did in IV would seem like nothing. They had to demonstrate her power more. Same thing applies here.

 

Either way I don't think essentially the ability to move Rey around using the Force makes him all poweful or anything. The real fact is this, the stuff from TFA that isn't explained like Snoke's origin or the map or how Maz got the saber were not left unexplained so they could be explained down the road. They were left unexplained because JJ and Kasdan didn't want TFA to get bogged down in explanation and exposition.

1) The effort to astral project for about ten minutes KILLED Luke Skywalker. Snoke connected two people via astral projection multiple times for minutes at a time. As Kylo says, doing that would have killed Rey.

 

2) Show me the clips where the Emperor flung around Jedi Force users (who could presumably resist via the Force) like they were rag dolls.

 

3) The Emperor could feel some of Luke's emotions and a few of his intentions. Snoke could read other Force users like books. Know their every intention. Kylo only beat him because Snoke over confidently assumed his intention was that Rey was the enemy he would strike down.

 

The point is real simple. If a man can read your mind and so knows you're gonna attack him, and if that man, thusly forewarned, can fling you around before you could ever reach him with your light saber ... How ... Do ... You ... Defeat ... Him? Kylo took the only option.

 

I think you are in a way you are taking the showing of powers too literally. They have to keep upping the ante with force powers somewhat. In Star Wars what do we really see? The mind trick and a choke? Plus Luke uses it to concentrate? In Empire we see the actual moving of objects with Luke grabbing his saber and then obviously Vader at the end. Plus we see Vader communicate with Luke through The Force. In Jedi we get lightning and also like the reading of thoughts. Its similar in the prequels, then again in the sequels. They want/need to show us new powers that make us go "wow, havent seen that before". That's where Snoke comes in. I don't think what he does is a sign he is literally more powerful, its not like some game where Snoke has 98 power and the Emperor had 94 and Vader 91 etc., its just showing us more powers to keep it fresh and new.

 

Having said that, I think the scene plays out perfectly. The way all three are getting partial information and then extrapolating out from that information based on what they want to see. Rey says Kylo will not bow to Snoke, she is ofcourse correct but she is wrong in assuming it means that Kylo turns good. Kylo says something like he sees him and Rey fighting alongside each other, which again is correct but it does not mean what Kylo thinks it does. Snoke sees resolve in Kylo to kill his enemy which yet again is correct, just doesn't mean what Snoke thinks it does.

 

I think it all plays out perfectly and not in some "well they wrote themselves into a corner and this is how to get out" kind of way. With the foreshadowing, the characters misreading their visions, its great.

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I think you are in a way you are taking the showing of powers too literally. They have to keep upping the ante with force powers somewhat. In Star Wars what do we really see? The mind trick and a choke? Plus Luke uses it to concentrate? In Empire we see the actual moving of objects with Luke grabbing his saber and then obviously Vader at the end. Plus we see Vader communicate with Luke through The Force. In Jedi we get lightning and also like the reading of thoughts. Its similar in the prequels, then again in the sequels. They want/need to show us new powers that make us go "wow, havent seen that before". That's where Snoke comes in. I don't think what he does is a sign he is literally more powerful, its not like some game where Snoke has 98 power and the Emperor had 94 and Vader 91 etc., its just showing us more powers to keep it fresh and new.

You're right of course, from a meta POV. But we can't go by what we believe or what we want to be true. We have to go by what we SEE on screen. And what we see ON SCREEN is that Snoke is more powerful than the Emperor. Any other conclusion is fan wank based on things not found on screen.

 

But even if Snoke vs Emperor is debatable, we started down this rabbit hole because you asked what makes Snoke so powerful. I think we saw enough on screen to justify that for sure.

 

I agree with the rest of what you said. I think it all played out perfectly, which is why it annoys me when people dismiss it as a lame death or that the character was wasted.

 

 

Snoke could read other Force users like books.

 

Maybe he could read Rey and Kylo "like books", but he missed the punctuation. "I will kill, Supreme Leader" versus "I will kill Supreme Leader".

LOL

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I think it all played out perfectly, which is why it annoys me when people dismiss it as a lame death or that the character was wasted.

Where it fell short for me was in how soon it happened. I think.

 

We were just starting to see something of Snoke and he looked better and was a lot more interesting than he had been in TFA. And then he got killed.

No big build up to it, no big dramatic moment, it just happened...in kind of a surprise twist.

 

I'm sure RJ would argue (and you might agree) that we've seen it the other way before. We've seen the dramatic, tension-filled scene where the villain finally gets it a million times. But this is a space opera. I'm not saying I never want anything about Star Wars to change, but you take out that sort of old-timey drama and it feels weird. It feels like fan fic instead of the genuine article.

 

That's what bugged me about Snoke's death. Story-wise it should absolutely happen (we don't need Palpy 2.0), but just give us some drama.

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I think the scene was filled with tension, we didn't really know what was going to happen. I mean I think we all could guess that Rey wasn't going to be killed by Kylo then and there but how it would all play out? There were tons of possibilities.

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Maybe I'm not explaining it right. Or maybe I'm just wrong and I need to see the movie again.

 

I'm not talking so much about the drama the story has created as I am the capital-D Drama. The Drama created by music and editing and camera angles and all those cheap film tricks that in any other movie are total cheese, but in a Star Wars movie send shivers up your spine.

 

It's that (plus the tension of the moment) that give me chills when that lightsabre flies past Kylo and into Rey's hand in TFA. And that's what I felt robbed of in Snoke's death. My reaction was to laugh (seriously, I did) -- I think it was intended to be funny in how it surprised us and flipped our expectations of a Star Wars movie on its head --and that's not really what I want, personally. I want that cheesy drama - it feels like Star Wars.

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I know I'm known as a Star Wars apologist around here, but you really didn't think that scene was Dramatic? Like, Snoke has been flinging Rey around the room, he's trying to convince Kylo to kill her, Kylo says he knows what he needs to do, Snoke basically narrates what's going to happen, you see Kylo start to turn the lightsaber around, and then "HE KILLS HIS TRUE ENEMY!" Lightsaber ignites right through Snoke, the music blares, you see his face, the lightsaber slices through him, Rey catches it, stands up in slo mo, her and Kylo stare at each other, and then they whip around to fight the Praetorians.

 

It's one of the best moments in the movie, IMO

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I admit I need to watch it again, I might revise my opinion, but as I said, I laughed when it happened. That was my honest reaction.

 

I felt RJ watching us in the audience, smugly snickering at anyone who might have thought it might happen in a more traditional way (like maybe not 2/5ths of the way through the movie, not 2/5ths of the way through the trilogy, maybe through some effort of Rey and/or Luke). It felt like a self-conscious "gotcha" kind of twist and it took me out of the movie.

 

Maybe I was too stuck in analyzing things as I watched. It just felt off to me.

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If you did it that way half the audience would be confused as to what happened. With unspoken Force actions you need to visually connect the dots.

 

It was also important to note that Snoke was deep in Kylo's head, and he was mirroring what he was doing to the Skywalker saber with the force, with his hand on his own lightsaber to hide his intentions from Snoke.

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The visual clue makes it work better. It plays out like this "what is that?...oh is he doing what I think he is doing....oh crap he is!!....oh crap he actually did it!!!. Then the whole time, which is only a moment or two, wondering if Snoke will figure it out.

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