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A new way to see the SW saga


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I think TLJ is a good movie. The acting, writing, directing, effects...everything is better than the prequels. Call it cognitive dissonance, but despite TLJ being a pretty good movie on its own accord, I rank it only slightly better than AotC as a SW movie. TLJ just doesn't fit with TFA let alone the rest of the movies.

 

But I think I have come up with a perspective to change this.

 

The OT was about Luke redeeming his father.

 

Then Lucas said, "no no no...SW is about the fall and redemption of Anakin" and made the PT.

 

Disney's new take on the SW saga is not about the Skywalker's at all. Rather, it is about understanding the true nature of the force. In episodes 1-6 we learn about the two sides of the force and see two conflicting ideologies fail. In 7-9, we see the emergence of the true nature of the force...a living force that Qui-Gon mentioned at the very beginning of TPM (it rhymes). I believe that through this lens, all of the shortcomings of TLJ are resolved. I believe that when Luke reconnects with the force, he sees it as the living force. Not some BS Jedi or Sith dogma.

 

That being said, I have only seen TLJ once and reserve the right to change my mind.

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Its funny that as the franchise has grown and my relationship to it has grown, Im getting to a place where I can be totally disappointed in a film (like the PT, maybe TLJ), but Ill accept what it has

Ever been to Utah? I kid.

I know I'm known as a Star Wars apologist around here, but you really didn't think that scene was Dramatic? Like, Snoke has been flinging Rey around the room, he's trying to convince Kylo to kill her,

I think thats absolutely what RJ was doing in TLJ. It is an interesting way to look at it as a series - I would wonder what the endgame is though.

 

But at the same time, I dont know if that was meant to be the overarching theme for this series. It doesnt feel to me like that was the thought from the start. We know RJ came on after the fact and wrote his own script, but I dont see much to suggest JJ/Kasdan necessarily had that in mind.

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Star Wars is unique in that it's a story told out of order over the course of 40 years. It has to function as 1 story yet it also has to function as 3 stories and then again it has to function as 9 stories. Being told in this way is inevitably going to have some inconsistencies and changes in what it is trying to say.

 

The idea of the OT being about Luke redeeming his father isn't even the real original intent as Vader was not Luke's father during the making of Star Wars. So even during the OT ideas were changed.

 

The first movie is about a farm boy from the middle of nowhere defeating the Empire. Now we are told his father was a Knight so he is not completely without pedigree but we don't know about his father being any super special Knight. But the true story of 1977 Star Wars is that of a nobody farm boy rising up to take on an Empire.

 

What is done in this movie by having Rey come from nowhere and showing the kid on Canto Bight is get back to the original 1977 Star Wars message.

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My biggest fear concerning SW is that it will stop being about one thing. I don't want to see SW become an endless string of movies that have no direction, or nothing unifying them. I've always viewed SW as one story, and each episode is a chapter in that story. I know a lot of fans want the ST to shy away from the PT because everyone wants to forget that the PT ever happened. I have a problem with this kind of thinking because if the SW saga is supposed to tell one coherent story, the final chapter, whatever that will be, would pretty much have to acknowledge those starting chapters. The last chapter in a book doesn't shy away from the first chapter like it never happened. It has to address it somehow in order to resolve whatever those plot points those beginning chapters set up for the reader. The end of a novel always ties in to the beginning somehow. Otherwise what you would have from cover to cover is a bunch of random events with nothing holding them together. Eps. 1-6 works really well as one story. What is set up in the first chapter (the chosen one, a prophecy of bringing balance, etc.) all comes to fruition in what should have been the final chapter. As much as I've enjoyed TFA and TLJ, I fear the ST is threatening that setup.

 

As of now, though, you could argue that the SW story is about the chosen one. Episodes 1-6 was about the chosen one bringing balance, and although it hasn't been explicitly stated in the films, I like to think of Rey as another chosen who exist to counter the darkness that is again arising. There is enough in TLJ to suggest this. Rey is another Anakin, only one will make the right decisions. When you view the movies chronologically (1-8), this idea of bringing balance has been the one consistent theme holding them all together.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

I have similar concerns, but I am in the camp that the Skywalker story should end with Episode 9,because we know none of the big 3 are returning after episode 9. I hope to see ghost Luke for sure (possibly Leia if writted WELL), but after episode 9, I think they should just close the book on the Skywalkers/Solos, at least going forward if they plan on having additional episode movies.

 

As for side stories, I do want to see an Obi Wan movie, but don't care about the Solo movie. Makes me wonder if instead of going backward (as much as I would LOVE to see an Old Republic era movie, it seems I am ALWAYS in the minority on cool things like that and I would be shocked if that ever happened.), they might do well to do the MCU thing....make Episode 10 with new characters and establish who they are (possibly some being the descendants of Rey, Poe, Finn, Rose), and then each character get a side movie. Then bring them back together Avengers style for an Episode 11. Then do a few more side movies based on those characters again, then bring them together again for episode 12.

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My biggest fear concerning SW is that it will stop being about one thing. I don't want to see SW become an endless string of movies that have no direction, or nothing unifying them. I've always viewed SW as one story, and each episode is a chapter in that story. I know a lot of fans want the ST to shy away from the PT because everyone wants to forget that the PT ever happened. I have a problem with this kind of thinking because if the SW saga is supposed to tell one coherent story, the final chapter, whatever that will be, would pretty much have to acknowledge those starting chapters. The last chapter in a book doesn't shy away from the first chapter like it never happened. It has to address it somehow in order to resolve whatever those plot points those beginning chapters set up for the reader. The end of a novel always ties in to the beginning somehow. Otherwise what you would have from cover to cover is a bunch of random events with nothing holding them together. Eps. 1-6 works really well as one story. What is set up in the first chapter (the chosen one, a prophecy of bringing balance, etc.) all comes to fruition in what should have been the final chapter. As much as I've enjoyed TFA and TLJ, I fear the ST is threatening that setup.

 

As of now, though, you could argue that the SW story is about the chosen one. Episodes 1-6 was about the chosen one bringing balance, and although it hasn't been explicitly stated in the films, I like to think of Rey as another chosen who exist to counter the darkness that is again arising. There is enough in TLJ to suggest this. Rey is another Anakin, only one will make the right decisions. When you view the movies chronologically (1-8), this idea of bringing balance has been the one consistent theme holding them all together.

 

Where is it written that Star Wars is supposed to be one long story? These movies and stories were not handed down to Lucas form God while he stood atop a mountain. They've always changed and sometimes changed massively.

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Yeah, I know that they have changed many times. Believe me, I know. Every time I argue for my one story view of SW, someone always points that out to me as if it is somehow detrimental to my point. Whenever I say that I want SW to tell one story, what I think some of you are hearing instead is "SW was always supposed to tell one story." Those two statements are not equivalent. The movies so far have done a pretty decent job of looking like one long story. That doesn't mean they were always intended that way. I have my fingers crossed that writers of future episodes will be smart enough to continue to pull that off.


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I guess I’m able to separate my own enjoyment of the films from the aesthetics. I thought ROTJ provided a great sense of closure, resolving what was set up way back in TPM. I don’t think its such an odd mindset. I’m sure there are plenty of hardcore Lord of the Rings fans out there who would be appalled at learning that someone was writing a sequel. I think its pretty safe to say that a devout Christian is a big fan of the bible. That doesn’t mean that he/she wants more books added to it.


Things mean different things to different people. Just because someone likes something, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they are starved for it and need more and more. I like stepping back and seeing a final product. That gives me a more lasting satisfaction than the two hours of entertainment that I’ll get from an additional film.


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Oh my God that's perfect. I couldn't have said it better myself. This is the biggest reason I didn't like TFA but loved Rogue One. R1 was a good side story still leading to that nice conclusion I know is there...or was. But the closure I got from ROTJ was undone by TFA for the sake of putting all the same characters back in the same old conflict once again. Even when I watch Rebels now it feels hollow because I know none will live to see the freedom they are all fighting for no matter who "survives" the end of the series. Some stories are better left finished. If you try to continue them after they're told you end up with Jason Voorhees in outer space or John Connor as the villain.

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You seperate your own enjoyment from the aesthetics? The movies exist to be enjoyed. That's basically their whole reason for existence. I know they exist to make money but if people didn't enjoy them they wouldn;t make money, which brings me back to the first point. The movies exist to be enjoyed.

 

Star Wars in 1977 provided ample closure to the story. They then made sequels, one of which changed the story completely by making Vader be Luke's father. They then made prequels which also changed the whole story by now claiming it's all about Anakin's rise, fall and redemption. Now they are making even more sequels and changing the scope of the story again, which is what they;ve always done.

 

You guys are taking it all too seriously, I love Star Wars as much as anyone can, but I mean it's Star Wars. There is a space big foot, a muppet who is the wisest person in the Galaxy, munchkins with glowing eyes. Its all an excuse to see space ships, light sabers, hear the music, see crazy creatures and teach simple morality lessons like fairy tales.

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Would you have told Tolkien, when he was writing LOTR, that it didn't really matter how his story played out because it was all an excuse to "show" magic rings and swords and elves and wizards fighting armies of orcs? Would you have told him that he was taking it too seriously for caring how his story ended? Was Tolkien's only concern to entertain the masses, or was he trying to accomplish something more? Story telling is just as much of an art as it is entertainment. I wanted more from Star Wars than mindless entertainment. It just all depends on what you want. I'll go back to what I said earlier. SW means different things to different people.

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The Last Jedi only confirms the fact that as long as you have a Star Wars logo it will sell. People will goo on themselves in the process, as long as it pretends to be STAR WARS!!!!

 

It's the ugly side of nerd culture. It's not about seeing a good movie, it's about feeding some weird religion.

 

If you really liked this movie I feel sorry for you.

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I didn't hate TLJ but I didn't love it either. There were some cool scenes but overall and totally it felt like a marvel movie to me. That's okay I guess for some people, but that is not the Star Wars I love. I liked Luke's story and where they went with Kylo and Rey...but the rest of it felt like a generic sci-fi action movie. The mystery, magic and charm of star wars was not there for me. But thats okay, I've still got the OT and the games.

 

Part of me wishes Star Wars would be put out to pasture so it would only exist in the form that I love and care about. But then that is depriving future generations from enjoying he SW universe. It's just a little odd, and painful for some people, to see their beloved franchise turn into something it wasn't before. I predict that it'll just be another meaningless franchise in a few years pumping out mediocre stories dressed up as Star Wars but with none of the original spirit. Again... Whatever, that's okay. I have no ownership over Star Wars and it's content.

 

But I totally agree with Quetzalcoatl. Loving something and being a fan doesn't automatically equate to wanting or needing more.

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Guest El Chalupacabra

I’m sure there are plenty of hardcore Lord of the Rings fans out there who would be appalled at learning that someone was writing a sequel. I think its pretty safe to say that a devout Christian is a big fan of the bible. That doesn’t mean that he/she wants more books added to it.

 

Ever been to Utah? I kid.

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I didn't hate TLJ but I didn't love it either. There were some cool scenes but overall and totally it felt like a marvel movie to me. That's okay I guess for some people, but that is not the Star Wars I love. I liked Luke's story and where they went with Kylo and Rey...but the rest of it felt like a generic sci-fi action movie. The mystery, magic and charm of star wars was not there for me. But thats okay, I've still got the OT and the games.

 

Part of me wishes Star Wars would be put out to pasture so it would only exist in the form that I love and care about. But then that is depriving future generations from enjoying he SW universe. It's just a little odd, and painful for some people, to see their beloved franchise turn into something it wasn't before. I predict that it'll just be another meaningless franchise in a few years pumping out mediocre stories dressed up as Star Wars but with none of the original spirit. Again... Whatever, that's okay. I have no ownership over Star Wars and it's content.

Totally, exactly, 100%, completely how I feel.

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Its funny that as the franchise has grown and my relationship to it has grown, Im getting to a place where I can be totally disappointed in a film (like the PT, maybe TLJ), but Ill accept what it has added to the overall universe. I now appreciate that even if I didnt like a movie, its canon now and it leaves room for other things to grow out if it.

 

For example, I watched TCW series just last year and liked a lot of it. Even though I dislike the PT, I didnt mind a lot of the same stuff in a cartoon. I liked Anakin when he wasnt Hayden Christensen, I liked Ventress (though not so much the other Nightsisters) and she wouldnt exist without the PT. Of course, had the PT been good, she could still exist, Im just saying we get some manure, we can get some good fruit later on.

 

Maybe I didnt love TLJ, but its certainly not all bad and I dont mind what has happened in terms of setting the stage for future stories.

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A new way to see the saga? I think if anything TLJ went back to the old way of seeing the saga, where they werent afraid of calling the Jedi a religion. Where there was humor in the most tense moments. Im happy I finally got to watch it, I think TLJ was spot on.

 

EXCEPT FOR SNOKE DYING. WHAT CRAP. WHAT BUILD-UP FOR NOTHING

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I get peoples complaints, though. I really have to wait for IX to know for sure if TLJ is good. It moved a little fast, it was a little hot and messy

 

EDIT: This is where I can really see JJ Abrams doing justice in IX. It could go back to being slow where this middle part was just a bit too fast. He can bring it back, I believe in him. I think this trilogy needs to end on a mystical note cause this episode really did a number de-mystifying the previous seven films.

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The Last Jedi only confirms the fact that as long as you have a Star Wars logo it will sell. People will goo on themselves in the process, as long as it pretends to be STAR WARS!!!!

 

It's the ugly side of nerd culture. It's not about seeing a good movie, it's about feeding some weird religion.

 

If you really liked this movie I feel sorry for you.

 

I hate to resort to `how would you do better` but honestly how would you do better. Was this new trilogy doomed from the beginning in your eyes, or do you honeslty think you or someone else couldve done better?

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I have a "what if" for you since you think Snoke dying sucked. How would you have handled that? He's all powerful. If Rey defeats him when he can read her mind and sling her around like a rag doll, then she really would have been a Mary Sue. And he was hell bent on killing her. So ... What else was there that wasn't lame AF or a Deus ex Machina ass pull?

 

This was literally the only way you were going to defeat somebody this powerful, use his arrogance against him. That's it. That's your only hope.

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Thats true. I have to admit that was kind of the best possible twist, but only for the TLJ that exists in real life. In the one made-up in my head i woulda made Snoke almost even more significant than the Emperor. I wouldve expanded the universe. (shut up)

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I have a "what if" for you since you think Snoke dying sucked. How would you have handled that? He's all powerful. If Rey defeats him when he can read her mind and sling her around like a rag doll, then she really would have been a Mary Sue. And he was hell bent on killing her. So ... What else was there that wasn't lame AF or a Deus ex Machina ass pull?

 

This was literally the only way you were going to defeat somebody this powerful, use his arrogance against him. That's it. That's your only hope.

Just to play devils advocate: youre using the constraints put on Snoke in this movie (that hes all-powerful) to justify the outcome.

 

A different script could have had Snoke be a little less powerful and found a different story to tell.

 

For the record, Im fine with the idea of Snoke dying early - rather than a repeat of Palpatines story, but it did feel like another haha gotcha moment in TLJ that took me out of the movie. I feel like there could have been a better way to do that.

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